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I can't say I've had the same experience you have had. There are tons of variables though that could lead to a difference in our experiences. Between different gear, the recipes mixed, dietary differences, hydration, smoking history, how acute one's sense of taste or smell are, etc. it'd be nearly impossible to speculate as to what makes your experience so wildly different from mine.
I'm sure there are a few instances where what would typically be viewed as absurd amounts of a given flavoring works ( based on a few of the commercial recipes I've seen that is true). There are plenty of instances where that just won't work though. Far, far, more than there are instances where it works well. Sometimes it works out that one flavoring in a mix interacts in such a way that it helps balance out how wacked the percentages are on others as well.
I'd not venture to tell people to do something that has a few fringe use cases as their first resort though. I've never had issues tasting my juice, never felt a ton of need for sweetener, but I also really didn't like how sweet commercial juice often is, usually it has the effect of self muting for me because the amount of sweetener is effectively causing sensory overload. There surely isn't an entire community of vapers that happen to agree that something like FW Blueberry works really well around 3%, enough that it becomes the average across some 5000+ recipes on ATF and 34000+ on ELR that use the flavor while it would better be used at 12% just because a few sources say not to use too much.
Exceptions are worth noting when they exist but like most things you don't teach people the exceptions first, you teach the rules. Broadly speaking, what is taught here is done because it works for the majority of people getting into DIY and works consistently well enough that many of those people are very much satisfied with what they have mixed.
Congrats on having a popular unpopular opinion?
> Number 1: Sweetener is an enemy
A bit dramatic. But sure, sweetener is the enemy of coil longevity, as you mention at the bottom of this post. And it's also the most used "flavor" on pretty much any recipe sharing site so, plenty of people agree with you. It's still better to work your way up to where you're satisfied than to dump it in your mix from the start. Some people enjoy tasting the flavors, not just sweetness.
> Number 2: Overflavoring = Bad
That's just a fact. Overflavoring causes olfactory fatigue. Where is that line? It's subjective but again, like sweetener, you should start low and work up to your personal sweet spot.
> That's when I realized fuck all these rules.
This is Do It Yourself eJuice, you're not required to follow other people's ideas, so it's not a rule. If someone asks a question and seeks guidance, people offer it up from experience. Consensus isn't a rule, it's just a lot of people offering advice based on their experiences.
I completely understand that consensus isn't a rule. Of course you don't have to follow what people here are saying.
But when you know absolutely nothing about making e-juice and you come here to learn, you're obviously ARE going to follow what other people are saying. You look up to people here who have an experience in this already for guidance.
Most people here agree - Use less flavoring, use less (or no) sweetener. So newbies come here, and they try that. Sure, It works for people. Otherwise, the majority of people here wouldn't be saying it and agreeing with it.
But it sure didn't work for me, and I know there's plenty of people out there who it doesn't work for as well. But they are new to this, too afraid to step out of the box because this sub really drills into your head the idea that a lot of sweetener is "wrong" or pumping "x" brand concentrate past "x" % range is also "wrong".
While there are no "rules" you'd be ignorant to claim that these things haven't been regurgitated here so much to the point that they essentially have become rules.
Anyway, I still have tons of respect for this forum and the people here. This is just my experience. I knew people would be salty over this or take it the wrong way but IDRC.
I have personally nor would I ever tell a new mixer not to use sweetener. Quite the opposite actually. And I’ve seen many others tell them to try using sweetener to start, especially if they are just coming from commercial. It’s common sense and a very commonly offered advice around here. An often seen confusion is new mixers mixing recipes esp on ATF which often don’t contain sweetener in the recipe because it’s implied that you use what you like. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t.
Also you’re confusing rules for rules of thumb which are basically just guidelines that have worked for the majority. What kind of help community would it be if someone asked how do I ____ and we said, just do whatever you want! Lol there has to be some guidelines or were just talking about it rather than trying to teach (out of the kindness of our hearts at that) you know?
> That's just a fact. Overflavoring causes olfactory fatigue. Where is that line? It's subjective but again, like sweetener, you should start low and work up to your personal sweet spot.
No, it absolutely isn't a fact - at least not if you take this sub's advice on what "overflavouring" is. The usual recommendations here are fine if you're using stupid high power, lots of air, and want something insipid as well.
You've given out some advice on this sub. Are you not part of this subs advice? Don't recall you recommending something insipid and neither have I.
You've probably run across more than a few flavor reviews by ConcreteRiver, was he using "stupid high power, lots of air.." etc?
A lot of advice is based off his reviews, because a lot of people have used them as research for creating recipes. People aren't having terrible experiences with their flavors and then trying to push that on others, they're creating things they enjoy and sharing what worked for them.
I'm sure you can think of a flavor that should be used lower than average, would you not say so when recommending it?
I actually had the opposite experience. I read about all the less is more ethos and stuck with my high percentages, tried a couple other recipes people were raving about and they were simply better. It wasn't working out with high percentages. I now find some other people's recipes too high. Even popular ones. Weird how things work sometimes.
Coming it this from a noob's perspective:
I definitely appreciate the advice I've gotten from people here (wish I could thank everyone who's thrown good advice out into the world through here, but there are just too damned many of you).
The way I've looked at it, people have been telling me what works for them, which has been invaluable to me. This place has also really encouraged me to experiment beyond that, though. Recipes people have posted are clearly not a "do it this way or you're wrong" kind of thing, and I'm constantly seeing that people had to try multiple different things before they were happy. If anything, that's shown me that what works for them may not work for me, and I'll need to color outside the lines sometimes.
So, yeah, there may be times when you need to do something unusual. Everything I've ever read here has told me that. If there's one sentiment I've seen repeated over and over, in multiple different contexts, it's to start small and conservative (whether it be flavorings, sweeteners, batch sizes, or a number of other things), and work your way up to what works for you.
I don't think using that much sweetener is safe because it is preserved with potassium sorbate, sodium benzoate and citric acid. I make skincare products and I know that sodium benzoate shouldn't be used over 1% and potassium sorbate over 0.5% for topical application. So I would assume that you probably want to use less for vaping.
Personally I find that using too much flavor or sweetener causes vapers tongue. Before I started making my own eliquid I started having a lot of irritation in my mouth where I was having swelling in parts of my mouth and I couldn't figure out why. After making my own eliquid I found that it was the sweeteners when I used too much. I didn't have the irritation until the last 2 years before making my own and I noticed that commercial eliquid was getting sweeter and sweeter instead of more flavorful. Everybody has different tastes and some are more sensitive than others. That's the nice thing about diy.
You're totally right. Def about the sweetener too, I mentioned yeah its most likely not good for you. But we also can't say inhaling all these artificial flavorings are good either.
It's all subjective which is really the point I was making here. I see people who are new come on here struggling sometimes, saying they tried this recipe or that one, and nothing tastes right or they cant taste anything at all. I was that person at one point. People will give almost any piece of advice in the book from what I've seen, besides "have you tried really pumping up that sweetener" or "maybe try higher percentages for your flavors" because truly for some people its that simple. I know for a fact I have a weak palate, im really not sensitive to flavors what so ever. It takes a LOT for me. I did the whole "ween off" sweetener phase, so it wasn't that. I just seriously can't taste shit unless I throw a lot of it in there and raise up my %'s on flavors.
I wish it weren't that way for me LOL. It would be nice to not have to use extra flavoring and all this sucralose. But really it's the only way I can enjoy it
A lot of flavors start muting themselves or turn chemically and gross if you crank them up too high. This is why we tell people "less is more". In reality, i suppose it should be said that you should start low and work your way up until you find a good percentage for you.
Also, I cant taste anything unless i have at least a small amount of sweetener. Ive always said "find what works for you". No, sweetener is not the devil, but too much sweetener will kill your coils quickly. Also, sucralose has been shown to release a precursor to formaldehyde. Basically, your body then metabolizes it into formaldehyde. If thats your thing then you can choose to assume that risk. Its the beauty of DIY.
You're right. There are some concentrates that I do use at lower amounts because they are so strong on their own. But most of them I use much higher than the general recommended percentages, otherwise I really don't taste a thing. My palate is extremely weak. What is just overload to one person, is the perfect amount for me.
The thing is, we know that these "flavors" are actually just aromas. It's our nose which picks up on it and that gets perceived as a taste. Sweetener on the other hand can actually be tasted on your tongue. When you throw sweetener in a mix, it coats the tongue and you can actually start perceiving the flavorings on your taste-buds. It's a fact that sucralose boosts the perception of flavor. This is why commercial lines put it in at such strong amounts.
This community is a minority. In reality, the majority of people who vape like the sweet stuff. They like the punchy, in your face, lingers on your tongue flavor that commercial liquids have. It sells. It gets chalked up on here so often as "the recipes are shit, they just use it to cover that up"
Is that true in some cases? Yeah, of course. Not always though. There are plenty of amazing commercial liquids which are very complex recipes, but they still use a ton of sweetener. Why? Well, it simply works.
100% I will not deny that vaporizing and inhaling sucralose is not the best thing for your body. As I said before though, we are all vaporizing and inhaling hundreds of artificial flavorings, there's no way they are completely safe either.
To me though, it beats cigarettes. I'll take my chances LOL
People are you giving you advice about what works for them -- and most -- yet you are acting as though they came to your house and forced you with a bunch of arbitrary rules? One of the largest points of DIY is you can make the eliquid to suit you, and anyone worth listening to on a forum would just say, "make a small tester instead of a big batch, you can add but you can't take away."
You're entitled to put whatever you want in, but people should have all available information to make the same choice. Where it gets weird is someone decides vaping essential oils or corn syrup is fine with them, then has an issue with others being warned. Everyone knows commercial juices use a ton of sweetener to get the jam effect, it's mentioned for the last 7-8 years when people were deconstructing recipes, and then when recipes were reformulated for sub-ohm and then again for nic salts.
It's as though you have an issue with recipes others put out there not fitting your tastes, when every single person is different and most are using very different hardware at different wattages. This post is saying more about yourself than the community you're railing against which taught you -- in one form or another -- everything about what you're doing.
So, your rant to the community that helped you is "FU, I cloned a commercial juice and you are wrong". So FU! Some of us started mixing to get away from all that sweetener.
Some of us have made the effort to understand what is in our juice and how flavors work together. It took me a year. Yes, I almost gave up to, but today I have a juice that's just as much "in your face" that has 0% sweetener in it.
Like u/Apexified said, "This is Do It Yourself". Sorry you thought there was some kind of rules.
p.s. I guess I broke the rules too: my ADV has 20% total flavoring in it.
20%?! That's a paddlin'... go to the naughty corner until you lower your percentages.
I broke it down for the guys on Discord and when you know it starts with 8% CAP Vanilla Custard, then you see it. So now I will go vape my JAVC while sitting in the naughty corner :)
15% of TFA sweetener holy Jesus balls that’s allot of EM. No wonder the percentages have to be high, probly muting it all to hell. I’m imagining trying to mix a recipe with like 7-8% super sweet (which would be about the equivalent to 15% TFA) and like 🤮 even for me and I like sweet! It’s estimated that commercial juices use around 3-4% of SS.
But hey. Whatever works for ya. Tho I’d be curious to see if a lower percentage could be used if you got rid of the EM.
You know its pretty wild because for that specific recipe the 15% sweetener actually isn't as sickly sweet as you would think. It really works and tastes just like the OG betty. Correct me if im wrong too but I think TFA sweetener has Maltol, not ethyl maltol
You are correct. It’s 5% Sucralose and 5% maltol. (I think I was thinking of sugar daddy, another sweetener I just avoid in addition to TFA due to muting and VT sweet mate for not being forthcoming about ingreds lol) That said, AFAIK, due to the nature of the manufacturing process preparations of one compound are likely to contain some amount of the other. It’s even kinda weird they’d use maltol over EM since EM is more desirable for ejuice due to its lower boiling point and less coil gunking. Also way sweeter since it’s synthetic vs naturally occurring. (Tho I guess this wasn’t specifically designed for vaping so..)
That said, I’m now even more confused how this recipe works. I was thinking ok, I’ve seen crazier things (007 cola looking at you) work completely. And maybe the EM could be good for rounding the harsh edge you’d get from that much Forrest fruit. I don’t see maltol having the same effect but 🤷🏻♀️ Still, it’s like; (I don’t want to use the word wrong but… operating very far outside of typical mixing parameters) taking two things way out of bounds in order to cancel each other’s negatives out. Which CAN work from time to time, it’s just rare and usually unnecessary. Very bizarre indeed and I’ll have to take your word for it working since I’m don’t have TFA sweetener lol.
If I had to guess how it works, I think the huge amount of sweetener just tames down any bitterness from having that much forest fruit. I tried mixing it before with a lower amount of sweetener (I think I roughly halved it down to 7%) just to see if it was the same and the flavor was still very strong and "betty-esque" but it got sort of bitter. No harshness though believe it or not. The TFA sweetener is basically the main ingredient in that mix flavoring wise. The high percentage of FF is definitely necessary for the "Betty" taste because the FF becomes really full and saturated at that high of a ratio. It's much different than FF at lower percentages. I would have thought a while back that Betty was a more complex flavor but I'm certain that this "clone" is more or less the exact recipe. It's so close its uncanny honestly. I'd give that one a shot if you're curious and play around with it.
Over flavoring is by definition too much flavoring.
Well, i'm not saying to be using completely ridiculous amounts of flavoring (like 40% or something lol)
But as an example, a lot of people will say FA flavorings generally shouldn't be used above 3%. Yet, I have had great results using them much past that, some as high as 16%. So that's more of what I meant. If you're somebody like me who has a weak palate, you gotta pump your flavors up way past what a lot of people here deem acceptable.
GODDAMN!! No judgement but that's a heck of a lot of sweetener, and Forest fruit. I'm not judging cuz I haven't tried it but, holy moly.
Let me just say I don't think your wrong. At least about sweetener. I've made a lot of recipe's from here. I always make it the way they suggest. I almost always find I need more sweetener. Never over 2% but still I agree I like things sweeter. Also I find you really need to find the right sweetener. Some make fruits pop some make custards fuller it all depends what you want. Personally I think people are natural drawn to the easiest route. Less sweetener=less coul changes. But you do you and I'm glad you stuck with it long enough to find what works for you.
I don't know about the sweetener and all, I personally don't use any but that is because I do not like the taste of it. What kills me is that 99% of all these recipes are DTL recipes so they are literally useless for me. I use large percentages for MTL and it works fine. I think low percentages are common here because most of the users here just inhale like there is no tomorrow with their set up's and over flavoring fucks with them.
I’m scrolling through the comments thinking why is no-one talking hardware?
Most of my vaping is at 90w dual coil rdas and most of my mixing is “tuned” for that.
I also have a 15w mtl that’s only for “stealth vaping” when blowing huge clouds would be impractical and I have a completely different recipe for that which is simpler and stronger overall in both nicotine and flavour (more PG too). I’ve never used a pod device but I would imagine it goes even more into that
Of note I can’t stand most commercial juice that I’ve tried finding it ridiculously over sweet. It actually took DIY for me to find acceptable flavours and most recipes I reduce DOWN from the given percentages.
This is true. Most of us old schools use RDAs because pods weren’t around when we started. You get used to high wattages and hits. I tried a pod and hated it because it couldn’t handle the insanely layered recipes I’m fond of. There are getting to be more pod/MTL recipes out there though.
How high a wattage you vape, as well as style (tight-ass MTL vs wide-open DL and everything in between) are 2 major factors that need to be considered in a recipe.
If you look back at recipes on various sites that are from 2013 and prior, you will notice a trend...they are all very high flavor percentages. That's because ** mainstream ** vapers at that time were all vaping on tootle puffer equipment, which was low power and therefore low heat. High flavor % was needed in order to taste the juice.
IMHO, DIY recipes should list, at the very least, what wattage the creator used when they deemed the recipe "satisfactory" to post. Wattage is a major part of a recipe.
There's also the unwritten "rule" by some here that if you're mixing by volume rather than weight, you're doing it wrong. Using volume and good quality syringes works fine for me.
About sweeteners, I guess I've never tried them. The place I ordered from before starting to mix I always got their house blends and they don't add sweetener unless you ask in the order dropdowns. I never did. All I know is the flavor concentrates from them taste fine without it and I use their recommended percents and flavors are fine to me.
One reason I stay away from sweets, caramels, custards and the like is the gunk factor. I use a pod system with premade disposable coils so coil life is important to me. So I tend to stick with simple 2-3 ingredient fruits.
Edit: Wow, some people REALLY dislike those of us who mix by volume. Well I have a couple things to say.
You're not my mom, although you seem to be just as much of a control freak.
You're not vaping MY juice.
Its not "wrong," it just leaves you with a mess to clean up
Not really, hardly takes any time at all. And if it leaves you with a mess to clean up, clearly you're not steady handed. All I have to clean up are a few syringes, no different than washing dishes.
It’s not wrong perse. Just not as accurate. Especially in small 10-15 ml tester batches where you’re dealing with measurements like .08 grams etc.
I have a 1ml syringe that can easily do .8ml.
Sure, .80 is fairly easy. 0.08 is not as much so. Just stating a fact; by weight is more accurate. My scale does down to .001 of a gram. It’s why specific cooking recipes such as macarons that require absolute accuracy, use weight over volume. Why paint is mixed by weight not volume, same with commercial food (or anything really) manufacturers. Weight, as long as your scale is calibrated properly is the most accurate form of measurement. So when we teach people how to do something we will teach the most accurate and efficient way. If you want to mix by volume, no one is telling you that you can’t.
You're right.. I forgot about that one. I have seen a lot of people here in the past going on about how volume is a terrible way to mix, inefficient or whatever.
I started by volume and liked it personally, It was very accurate which is nice. I just hated having to wash all the supplies out.
Def that is the biggest downside to sweeteners IMO is the coil killing.
A few syringes, a few needles. I don't see how much there really is to wash out. Hell, if I were going by weight I'd have to use the syringes and needles anyway to be accurate.
When I joined this sub-Reddit I was mixing by volume and over flavoring everything. My juices were muted. I’ve since learned how to mix juice, I love, properly with suggestion from the experienced mixers in this subreddit and in Discord. Don’t confuse suggestion, guidelines and recommendations that have WORKED FOR MORE EXPERIENCED MIXERS that you’re also reaching out for help. Love it or leave it. At the end of the day you’re responsible for what you mix, it’s DIY for a reason. I still use .50% of sweetener because I like it. I always recommend to new mixers to start at .50% sweetener when coming off of commercial juices. That’s the point being free from cigs, commercial juice prices and the restrictions of not vaping some thing you absolutely love. Is there a learning curve absolutely, but without the help of these more experienced mixers I would’ve stayed stuck and gave up. So do what works for you and don’t bother with this subreddit if it’s so unhelpful and hurtful to the vaping community. Matter of fact start your own subreddit where you can teach all the newbs to start their sweetener at 15% let us know how it goes. Edit- Actually don’t intentionally mislead new comers just because you have had a different experience and now you want to go against the grain so maybe, just maybe you can stand out in the crowd. Make your suggestions just like everyone else and let the mixer decide what works for them like everyone else. It’s that simple.
TBH, I'm sort of surprised that people are taking what I'm saying way too personally and getting offended by this.
Did I say that this reddit is unhelpful and hurtful? Not at all. Did I mention that I learned lots of valuable information here? Of course. Did I suggest 15% sweetener as a starting point? Not even in the slightest.
If you re-read my post you should understand the point I was making. Anyone who says that this sub hasn't made the "no sweetener/extremely low flavor percentages" a common theme/trend is playing dumb. Just type "sweetener" in the search bar if you want to see the incredible bias that exists here against a simple ingredient.
The fact of the matter is there are a lot of people like me who simply aren't going to get the results they want by sticking to that trend. If I tell a newbie who's struggling to get the flavor level they want (which is one of the most common complaints among the newbies) to try out using high % sweetener/flavoring, I know for a fact I would get tons of people piggy backing me saying that is hurtful advice. When honestly, I wish someone would have just told me that in the past when I was struggling. It was a simple solution that fixed my problem.
Sweetener isnt really necessary in a lot of recipes. Velvet Fog for example on ATF doesnt really need it, and the reason being is at least one of those flavors already have sweetener present and the addition of sweetener in that instance is really excessive.
Maybe that's a poor example to an extent. Some flavors have sweetener already. Some flavors dont really benefit from sweetener or at least not in the sense of a pure sweetener. Some flavors add a more natural type of sweet aspect without murdering your coils. Raspberry for example benefits more from the addition of FA Meringue than CAP Super Sweet. A little FA Lemon Sicily really perks up watermelon. A little raspberry perks up strawberry. Sweetener helps as well but it's a crutch imo that a lot of people rely on too heavily. I dont believe in CAP SS beyond 0.15%.
I found recipes with little to no sweetener perfectly fine. Once I started to add sweetener I found how much it actually improves flavor, but I hate rewicking more than twice a month. Once I found out a workaround by using other flavors I felt it vastly improved flavor more than just using sweetener and my coils dont suffer. The latter might attribute to why at least some people just dont want fuck all to do with sweetener.
Low percentages are straight bullshit. If I'm making strawberry cream mixes I need 2% - 3% INW, 2.5 - 3% CAP, and 3% TFA for a max of 9% strawberry. Without less than 7.5% strawberry in my mix I cant taste strawberry. It's rather easy to hit 15% flavor in a mix.
~~Just a heads up, that is no where close to Bettie.~~ Not the same juice.
Here's a link to Centerfold's full recipe list posted by them: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/m53v7c/centerfold_vape_co_full_recipe_list/
Wrong Betty. The one OP is talking about is from pin up vapers and a mixed fruit. Also still in production far as I know.
But thanks for that link from CVC. My gawd those percentages are high lol. Oof!
I think they're good references to start. And sure diy is your own gig, use 50% flavoring if it butters your bread. So long as you're vaping it and I don't have to vape it I'm good. lol. It did help me though, my first attempts at diy were a nightmare. Taking advice from a vape company that offered unbranded concentrates (no clue what they were, house labels) and told to 'start' around 30% flavoring. Between janky flavorings and too high of a percentage not shocked everything I made tasted like pure shit.
Then I got more serious about it and past the typical taking two ready made juices and smashing them together. Started reading forums, watching yt channels like diy or die and others. Got proper flavorings, dropped my %, held back on the super sweet and have been pleased. Just what works for me. Like for a simple shake and vape, fa forest fruit around 4% and maybe a drop or two of super sweet in a 120ml. I've added 8 drops (what .15-0.2g?) to a 120ml and it was so sweet I nearly ralphed.
It depends on the person. Also depends on factors like smoking. Stands to reason people coming off cigs need more 'in your face' flavor so they stand a chance of tasting it. My sense of taste has returned. I also see people constantly complaining about vaper's tongue and the inability to taste their juice. That'll happen with a donkey punch to the pie hole of flavor constantly. The body will shut down the senses out of self preservation.
There may also be a benefit to the juice companies making everything so damn sweet. For a lot of people bombarding themselves with sweet things makes them crave more. Super sticky sweet and yummy? The person wants more. What do they do when they crave more? Vape more.. suck down that juice so they need a new bottle.
Also doesn't mean I agree with everything I hear or people suggest when it comes to diy. My taste is the final judge. A lot of people have success using inw cactus to make things 'juicier' and yet for me even below .25% all I taste is funky aloe. Totally ruins the flavor for me. Many suggest what an ex smoker needs is 'throat hit', when actually what satisfied me was a gentle throat hit and fuller lung hit. People need to find their own path. Doesn't make everyone else wrong, we all like different things. It's why some of the most heinous breakfast cereals exist, someone likes them. Don't know who exactly, but I imagine someone.
There's also different types of flavor. Do I like hershey bars? Sometimes sure. Is it 'fine chocolate'? No, it's not. It's actually pretty trash. Huge name company, lots of sales but it's not refined gourmet chocolate by any stretch of the imagination. Just because something is familiar or popular doesn't mean it's high quality. People gobble down big macs by the millions, no way that floppy gray patty is all beef. It's mystery meat. Anyone can grab a lump of shitty ground beef, slap it into a patty and let it start burning on a grill and get a better tasting burger. There's a lot of mcd's juice out there and just because people consume the hell out of it doesn't mean it's something to strive for necessarily. When I make burgers at home my goal isn't to duplicate a big mac, it's to make something significantly better.
So you were surprised by people taking your rant too personally? In my opinion that's exactly what you wanted to happen. In one comment you said you knew people would be salty, but you don't really care. It's all good though. You aren't the first nor will you be the last to try to stir things up and point fingers at the people who offered you advice when you started and asked for help. You say that are lots of people who feel like you do...why not gather them up and start your own thing and do it your way instead of hanging around here with people you obviously don't respect.
Yes, I knew some people would be "salty" because my experience goes against the grain and the established norm.
Did I think people would take it to a level of a personal attack? (as you are now, claiming I "don't respect" the people here.) No, not at all.
I mentioned how much of a help this community has been and still is. This was just my personal experience regarding the trend of low flavor %'s and little to no sweetener that is very prevalent here.
I really truly fail to see how my post pointed any fingers at the community, or how it was an attempt to "stir things up". All I did was share my story.