Long story short: I felt like I was in a flavor rut for a few months because everything I was mixing had a similar taste. Everything had this very sharp, mildly spicy taste that would cause a slight tingle in my mouth and upper throat. I finally got around to making my ADV without nicotine and...yup. It’s the nicotine that is causing that flavor. Without the nicotine, it was this amazingly blending flavor that has been missing from my life. Now, I stored my nicotine well. As soon as I got it, I aliquoted it into 30 mL amber glass bottles and put them in ziplock bags in the freezer. I only take out one at a time when mixing. So, did I possibly just get a bad batch, or is all nicotine going to have this taste? I have a brand new bottle of nicotine that is in the freezer and unopened. Should I give that a try? I mix at 3 mg/mL.
Proper unoxidized nicotine (salts excluded) will not have an added flavor note.
Pyrizine pepperyness/toastiness/burnt notes originate from nicotine oxide
Tire rubber and petroleum smells originate from contaminant thiols in the extraction process.
These arent properties of unoxidized nicotine which is tasteless, but still possesses the throat kick. If formulated with proper flavorings at a balanced pH, this shouldn't be affected.
Let us know if we can add any more information or post any analytical results from our laboratory to support these statements.
Hope u had a great day! Thanks for posting great questions like these!
Oh wow! So, I’m actually a chemist (4th year in my PhD) and this is really interesting. I just looked at your website (never heard of your company before) and I think I am sold l give you guys a try!
In your comment, you mentioned pH. Are you referring to the pH of the mixed juice or the pH in the extraction process? Would certain flavors in a juice cause enough of a pH change to increase the rates of nicotine oxidation? I’m really curious about that aspect. And, you can be as chemistry specific as you want. I’ll understand :). Thanks again for replying!
Just a heads up. You may want to do a quick search of Nude Nicotine on this sub before purchasing from them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/iphlid/nude_nicotine_review2019_to_2020/
((Im not a chemist)) I buy from a shop that mixes all juice in house with any nic/salt/flavor combo possible and I have noticed (in my case, I don't know about other people) that super sweet flavors, and some dessert flavors oxidize MUCH faster than other flavors, even when in the freezer.
That is really interesting because I just did a similar experiment the other day. I wanted to spot check my nicotine stock, so I made up a bunch of 20 mL samples of juice using random nicotine bottles to see if there were some that didn’t have a bad taste. As a control, I made one without nicotine. I mixed up a simple strawberry, Bavarian cream, marshmallow mix. Now, the cream and marshmallow are naturally a dark yellow, so I would have expected the juice to have a yellow tint. Interestingly, the one without nicotine was visibly less yellow than the ones with nicotine directly after mixing. And remember, my nicotine stock does not have a color to it. There wasn’t a huge difference in color, but it was enough to tell which one didn’t have nicotine from across the room. Obviously, either the flavor is reacting with the nicotine or the nicotine is reacting with the flavor.
/u/RealNitrogen I was referring to the pH of the finished eLiquid when adding flavors, but pH during extraction and distillation prep is SSUUPPEERR necessary. When we refine our nicotine via distillation, we pH balance the input feedstock with ammonia or functionalized chromatographic resins.
If theres any thiol content still weakly bound to the nicotine, certain acidic flavors will compete for hydrogen binding affinity at the pyrrolidine nitrogen center and "release" them into solution making them more perceivable by smell/taste. Were talking parts per billion range (50-500) where this becomes an issue.
Nicotine oxide wont exhibit the same binding affinities since the pyrrilidine center has been oxidized and lost a lot of electron density. It just tastes bad itself ;)
Tons of cool "table chat" info I could go off on but tried to keep it short. If I wanted to go ever-deeper, I'd start with QC methods that are nonexistent in our industry we fight to standardize everyday ;) Nicotine quality and QC are a big deal and we appreciate you asking questions!
Very interesting stuff. I do agree that I wish there was more QC standardization in the industry. It’s always a little worrisome when I see “high quality nicotine!” And little to no QC details to back that up. Thank you for explaining a lot of these details though. This discussion has really got me thinking about the chemistry of this issue. It really has sparked me to try out a bunch of different tests to see what the results show.
How does one balance the pH of their mix?
/u/namethatwasnttaken ph balancing is done with a pH up and pH down solution. You can have them be comprised completely of single flavors, but it's a bit of an art knowing what pH your starting materials are made of, what swing direction you're going (usually down after adding nic base- commonly downwards from pH 8ish). Therefore using ingredients that are acidic should be used in moderation, and as a balancing agent in this case.
Most fruits and all citrus are acidic, but pH varies GREATLY anywhere from 2 to 6 depending on flavor
Most custards and creams, if not with lactic/butyric acid or other acids, can tend to be more neutral 5 to 7, but still slightly acidic.
There are very few "vape-safe" basic "pH-up" solutions. Most of this is done to neutralize the basic properties of freebase nicotine.
Nicotine salt mixing with this principle is flipped upside its head with a new variable in the mix - binding affinities and total solution chemistry. Let me know if that topic interests you at all for future writeup :)
Happy mixing!
All nic I've ever had has a spicy burning "taste" to it.. separate from just the burn itself.
I don't mix above 6mg/ml because of this taste you're talking about. I'm also very interested if there is nicotine that has 0 taste.
just a tip: you don't need to store nic in the freezer, it's totally fine in a shaded area at room temperature. i've had no problems and i've done this for years. also one of the better nicotine companies recommends against it as well (carolina xtract says so on their website).
I've had mild muting from 3mg freebase but never a bad taste unless the nic was bad to begin with. The only bad nic I've had (so far, over about 4 years) was a bit of 100mg VG base that I had shipped during summer, when it arrived it was yellowed and smelled like a wet ashtray crossed with "fishy" instead of just vaguely pharmaceutical.
I experimented with adding small amount of citric acid (around 3-4 drops per 10ml, made from CA powder at 10% in PG by weight), shook and let it sit for a few days and it negated most of the bad taste in that VG nic. Still have some in the freezer in case things go sideways down the road and I have to use it.
Would be useful for the rest of us if you could state where abouts you sourced it.
Your nic has likely oxidized. Besides the spicy taste, the signs for this are: a (dark) yellow tint to the liquid and a pungent smell from the bottle. It's not supposed to taste like black/white pepper or be throaty (at 3mg) and it should not have a prominent taste/smell or sensation when vaped.
Try a different vendor.
Yes. It is PurNic from Nicotine River. 100 mg/mL in PG. Interesting, it doesn’t have an odor or a color. It is still clear. Maybe a very very slight off yellow, but nothing dramatic. Do you have any other suggestions for reliable vendors? I have another 1 L bottle that is unopened in the freezer that I can try out. This nic that I am on was purchased about 1 year ago. So it was shipped in the winter. As soon as I got it, it went into 20 or so glass amber bottles and into the freezer.
Just my 2 cents...I have used River Supply (nicotine river) for a while now with no nicotine issues ever. It's always clean and doesn't alter my liquid. For reference, I mix at 1.5mg/ml and I buy VG based 100mg nicotine. It's hard to work with due to viscosity, but I've had zero issues.
Yeaaah.. Nic is the one diy Ingredient that I don't f*** around with. I buy from a vendor that I know is reputable, and I'm very maticulous with how it's stored. Right when I get it, I split it up into 100 ml amber bottles and throw them all in the freezer. Except for the one that goes in my fridge ( frequent use).. I pretty much do the same thing with pg/vg (though I know it's unnecessary)
So, this is semi related to your post. I am getting into mixing my own juice and ordered from LiquidBarn, their CNT Nicotine 48MG/ML. My plan is 3MG or less.
My question is, how should I store my nicotine? I never thought or read anywhere about storing it in the freezer. Does Nicotine, like alcohol, not freeze?
The propylene glycol or glycerine it is dissolved in will not freeze. It will just thicken and you will need to let it warm up for a few minutes before measuring. If you are just starting, I would suggest getting nicotine in propylene glycol. It’s a lot easier to handle since it is not so viscous.
So, I would just store it in the freezer. If you want to get extra fancy, you can divide it up into smaller bottles so you are only taking a small portion out of the freezer each time rather than your whole stock.
Yeah I had read that and went for the PG base. Glass bottles for freezing right? Although im sure the larger 125ML bottle it comes in thats plastic is fine to go in the freezer?
You can put the plastic bottle in the freezer. It will be fine. If you are looking to buy various glass bottles for your mixing adventure, I recommend glassbottleoutlet (.com). It’s the one site that had amazing prices and you are able to select exactly how many of each you want. A lot of other sites make you buy the bottles in packs of 10 or 50 or whatever. On this site, if you want only 34 bottles with caps and 8 extra caps, you can do that lol.