Hi, So I'm fairly new, but I'm working on compiling some information specifically on the 'sour' taste in e-liquids. I know that information is sparse, both because it's fairly recent and because it's almost impossible to get that 'sour' flavor in vapor - but it IS possible! :)
Atm, I'm especially looking for ressources on 'ready-to-mix' dilutions of acids for e-liquid, as it's pretty hard to dig up specific ingredients in brand additives..
Would also appreciate any links/experience regarding use and safety of any of these or others!
So far, the commercial acids I've found (for e-liquid) is:
-Malic Acid- (TFA, FW, many others) Most common for 'sour' effect. Best as enhancer, doesn't translate well on its own. Safety concerns regarding inhalation found
-Lactic Acid- (CAP Powerful) Haven't found much on this on its own. Used by CAP along with Citric Acid. safety concerns unknown
-Citric Acid- (CAP Powerful, nudenicotine) Used as enhancer. Better for 'fruity' mixes. Easily mutes flavors if not careful. Safety concerns regarding inhalation found
-Tartaric Acid- (nude nicotine) Used to 'mask' sweetness. Can quickly mute flavors. Safety concerns unknown
-Ascorbic Acid- (nudenicotine) Only inorganic acid on list. Used in cola. Have only found anecdotal accounts of use - seems like the best option for 'Sour' sensation. Safety concerns unknown
My list of 'food grade' acids as of now. I lack research on a large amount of these:
- Citric Acid
- Lactic Acid
- Malic Acid
- Tartaric Acid
- Fumaric Acid
- Ascorbic Acid
- Acetic Acid
- Oxalic Acid
- Tannic Acid
- Caffeotannic Acid
- Benzoic Acid
- Butyric/Isobutyric Acid
//Inorganic Acids//
- Phosphoric Acid
- Trisodium Citrate
//Non-acids//
- Vinegars (Apple Cider is common)
- Lemon/Lime Juice
EDIT: Adding: //fruits, citrus//
- Grapefruit/pomelo
- Lemon
- Lime
- Orange/tangerine/clementine
- Tamarind (citric/tartaric)
- Rhubarb
- Cranberries
- Green Mango
- Pineapple
//Other//
- Greek Yoghurt (Lactic)
- Kimchi/sauerkraut??? (Lactic)
Man, I am also rabidly waiting for a decent Sour conversation. Usually, when the topic is brought up, the post dissolves into negativity after a couple people say ”Nope, it can’t be done.”
I feel like giving up on the Sour front would mean abandoning the flavors I most dig vaping.
I'm doing my best! Will update the post and release my database, as soon as I have it organized! :)
Going to post all the places I can and make it a collaborative project, so people can chime in with ideas, experiences and found research - anything really.
If you have ANY knowledge not mentioned - even search words or pointers, it would be much appreciated
That is fucking music to my ears, comrade!! Personally, I’ve had more luck with sour Flavors than Additives. After solo-flavor testing around 250 flavors - these are the ones that my mouth most associates with a Sour/Tart flavor sensation:
FE Lemon - FLV Sour Apple - INW Grapefruit - FA Lime Tahity (distilled) - TFA Pineapple - PuR Mango - TFA Cranberry
I don't know what's in FLV Sour Apple but it works
Isobutyric acid is listed on the MSDS sheet...
Right On! FLV Sour Apple is one of the flavors that gives me real hope in the Quest for Sour. Flavor companies seem to be making progress on all fronts, but while scientific minds are percolating... Would you have any advice about flavor combinations that might help increase the Sour/Tart flavor in (for example) Mango?
p.s. if this is hijacking, please flip me the bird & Ill go away.
The only answer I have for sour is FLV Sour Apple, but not enough to make it taste like apple, and/or INW Lemon Mix, but not enough to make it taste like lemon. I'd start with getting the mango where you want it, then introduce a little FLV Sour Apple (like 0.25%). If it doesn't taste like apple but still isn't sour/tart enough, make another batch but try a little more (say, 0.35%). Repeat as necessary. If you reach a point where it starts to taste like apple, you've gone to far. Back up a bit to last concentration of FLV Sour Apple + mango that didn't taste like green apple, and add some INW Lemon Mix (like 0.1%, that stuff is potent). If it doesn't taste like lemon but still isn't tart enough, go up to 0.15% in your next batch, etc. You should get a tart-sour mango eventually and if I had to guess, the end result will probably look something like this:
- FLV Mango 2.5%
- VT Shisha Mango 2.5%
- FLV Sour Apple 0.75%
- INW Lemon Mix 0.25%
Edit: maybe FA Indian Mango in addition to, or instead of, one of these mangoes.
Any flavor questions are welcome! Spread the knowledge :b Someone posted this - supposedly, the acids that occur naturally in fruits are the best match for that flavor (again, not a chemist, might be wrong on this) http://imgur.com/gallery/liZPLV6
BTW, have any of you tried Apple flavors from other brands? How do they rank for you (roughly)?
Chemist here. While I haven’t experimented with these various acids for their sourness, I think I can come up with some conclusions for what you are looking for. So, when it comes to sour taste, I always envision two types of sours. The first is what I feel is a whole mouth sour. This is that sour feeling that you get slightly all over your mouth when eating things like sourdough bread or vinegar dressings. This seems to come from acids with single carboxylic acid groups. This will be the acetic acid, lactic acid, and the butyric acid. In concentrated forms, these are VERY pungent and off putting, but once diluted, they give a sour taste. The other type of sour is the “pucker face” sours. The ones that make your tongue curl up and you taste it mostly on the middle and back of your tongue. These will be things with multiple carbonyl groups. Citric, Malic, tartaric, fumaric, and ascorbic acids. These are the spurs that come from candies or fruits. The fruits are typically citric and ascorbic while candies are more Malic, fumaric, and tartaric. Now, I would stay away from oxalic acid for safety concerns. I doubt that you would ever vape enough to be considered dangerous, but I wouldn’t take the risk. Stay away from tannic acid. That is just a huge molecule that is just begging to burn on your coil and release unknown carcinogens. I have never heard of benzoic acid being sour and I don’t know of the health concerns with it, so I would maybe avoid that one. Also, I don’t think phosphoric acid is sour. Being an inorganic acid, I would imaging that it interacts very differently with taste receptors compared to organic acids. Trisodium citrate is an organic acid. It’s just the conjugate base of citric acid. I actually don’t think these taste as sour as the acids. It obviously depends on the pH of the solution as to how much is in the acid and basic form, but since this is in PG/VG and not water, I would imagine that most of it will stay in the basic form and not taste as sour. And, from your “non-acids”...vinegar is just dilute acetic acid and lemon just is basically just dilute citric acid. Hopefully this will help to narrow down your search.
I read somewhere malic acid should not be vapes. Could you shed some light on that?
So, I am have not done extensive research on this, but this is what my chemistry knowledge has come up with. So, malic acid is typical in vapes. It is what the ingredient is in “sour” flavor. Typically, the puckering sour is the sour that vapers are looking for, but it is difficult to achieve. The whole mouth sour that I mentioned (acetic acid, lactic acid, butyric acid) are all single carboxylic acids and are all liquids at room temperature. This means that at the high temps of the coil, they are more readily vaporized to contribute to the flavor. While they are sour, they are not the sour that is wanted. Instead, the pucker sour comes from the molecules with multiple carboxylic acids. There’s a problem with these though. They have high melting temperatures and will decompose before vaporizing. They are filled with hydroxyl groups and carboxylic acids and mixing that with high temperatures leads to decomposition. So, when these are put into juices, they are not actually vaporizing and are instead hitching a ride on the vape aerosol in small amounts. But, a lot of it stays behind on the coil and will eventually burn the coil. This is why a good sour juice will trash a coil very quickly. So, the puckering sour taste is achievable, but you would need to add a good amount of the sour flavor that it would end up burning out on your coil in a few days.
Interesting stuff, thanks for your contribution. I believe sourness is hard to achieve is because the flavor perceived from vaping is mostly olfactory. It's probably also to do with having an association with sourness. We are hard-wired in the way we perceive it. The tongue can pick up some tartness from aerosol particles, but they are too small to give the typical sour sensation in the mouth/tongue. In my experience with vaping and mixing eliquids, tart or "sour" flavors will be perceived as bitter before truly sour unless you chuck a bunch of sweetener at it.
The state of the molecules being aerosol is what limits the perception of sourness. Just like how any edible product will never be recreated 1:1 in a vape, because you are literally bypassing the tastebuds on your tongue that would fill in things from the flavor profile that add to the overall experience e.g texture and basic flavors like sour, bitter, sweet, salt, umami, etc. It can get close, but never 100%.
It is said that sweetness can boost flavor reception on the tongue as it seems to make vapor more sticky. I'm going to guess that means the sweetness molecules are also larger in aerosol form? If larger molecules mean larger aerosol particles, this may be why the pungent lactic types like yogurts can work like they do at lower concentrations.
From a evolutionary standpoint our body's developed smell for survival. The sourness has always come from diary products. The sour processed foods that we are trying to recreate in vaping are pretty new to our olfactory system (brain) in that sense. Maybe if these processed foods and vaping are around long enough that our olfactory system will develop a better sense for it.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I probably am.
Wow, thank you! This definitely helped clear a lot of stuff up! I'll go through and update my sheet in a little while. I'm beginning to acknowledge that I might have to learn some basic chemistry for this to be an effective search.. Oh well
Yes. Please do research before experimenting lol. Remember, you are putting something into your body. You want to be careful and not do something that could be dangerous to yourself and your health.
Not a chemist but as I understand it benzoic acid is one of the most common acids mixed with freebase nicotine to form “salt nic”. The other 2 acids commonly used are salicylic or Malic.
I’m not sure what that means for the sourness, I’ve only had salicylic based nicotine and freebase, but I would assume that means it’s generally considered as safe to vape.
I have had very good luck with Wonder Flavors sour ball candy. Any fruit or drink flavor I pair it with turns out pretty sour. Its not warhead sour but I think it does a much better job then TFA/FW/CAP. You may need to add sucralose to enhance it, I am a little heavier on it so I've actually never tried it without the sucralose. The CAP powerful sour sucks and burns coils faster than sucralose, its kinda sour but has a weird off note.
Anyone test out FLV Pucker and what might be in that?
Which one of those is Bitter Wizard by Flavour Art?
(Tested) Citric Acid 10% PG
Ascorbic Acid 5% PG
(Tested) Malic Acid 20% PG
Tartaric Acid 10% PG
Dear, I am carrying out tests with the most varied types of ingredients.
Until the moment:
- 10% citric acid in PG: did not work as an additive for sour vapor. On the other hand it helped in the nicotine anti-oxidation process. I recommend using up to 0.3% for this function. Above that the vapor will be bad, causing irritation in the throat and nose. The same feeling as a vaporized vinegar.
- The 20% malic acid in PG makes the taste on the tongue really sour with the drop test in hand, but unfortunately it's not felt in the vapor. Also, it mutes the flavor of juices a lot. I believe the use should be between 0.1% to 0.5% maximum if you are with a 20% PG concentrate.
I will also test tartaric acid and ascorbic acid.
Translation from Portuguese to English. Sorry.