Hey y'all, prepping for vapocalypse and I've ordered a bunch more mods and supplies (including my first mechs and squonk mod wew). This included 2 x 500ml 100mg CarolinaXtract nic (my research indicated as soon as it is opened the shelf life starts to degrade faster- hence the 2 x 500). I'm also planning on ordering 2 x 1L 100mg from LiquidNicWholesalers (with the goal being I'll use those first, and rely on the supposedly like oxygen free bottling or whatever on the CX to for the longest shelf life).
My questions are- I've read that the flavors will not be ban-impacted as they are used for other things. If sites like LiquidNicWholesalers shut down- (1) where can we get the flavors that aren't vape specific businesses? In addition, (2) how much flavor should I order ahead of time? I read that the flavor itself should remain best ~6 months after which flavor may change, but it won't ever "expire". And (3) I've read lots of different things in freezing/refrigerating. I feel like CX said not to freeze theirs, does it matter what type it is? The 2 x 1L I buy will be PG.
If there is zero risk of us not being able to get the flavors- I won't worry about buying much of it yet- I'm also ordering a bunch of manuf. juice that will last me a while. DIY will kick in once that runs out.
Thank you so much!
Just my opinion: No worries on flavorings as you honestly can smart buy or leisure buy. Companies such as Larans, And so many others just research it have been and will always put out these concentrates. 30yrs ago I remember my Grandmother experimenting with other flavors of hard tac candy like cinnammon but Peach, Grape, Root Beer etc and was not oil like the cinnamon you would buy at pharmacy counter. Home brew, same thing and the market for these flavorings is so much higher than our industry and without out it these flavor companies would go on like we weren’t a factor. Nicotine, I expect may at worse case be more regulated but not unattainable. Logistically I’ve been involved and on political side of things there won’t be any attention for some time to that side of things if ever. I attest, once PMTA’s are past the work of review and acceptance will begin after the 8th and the only vapor products, (which have already turned in and been in the accepted bins) that will survive legally will be that in which BIG TOBACCO owns. RJ, ALTILA etc will take the market over, and the politicians will continue without worry of retraction their MSA $$$ and all the POWER will be back in control of the DICTATORS! Black Market will be KING & we will be fine. The only drawback, won’t be any shops or places for the still smoking adult to confer with one of us to assist them into our lifestyle or have a healthier alternative and access to a smoking cessation without feeling like their buying drugs on the corner or some whipper snapper going to cop for them a MTL set up. No, they will have the IQOS or some other vapor product from PHILLIP MORRIS. So be easy my Padiwan for vapocalypse is a ways off yet.
I live by the words "always be prepared" 🤣 Also on the nic side, we aren't talking a lot of money so there isn't much reason not to be over prepared imo. If in six years I find out a $50-80 bottle of nic went bad, that's not going to be a huge deal. It really annoys me because people don't think of unintended consequences, ever. For me, I don't really care about the nicotine aspect. I've used some form of nicotine since I was 16- but it's always been about the 'something to do,' even when I was a pack a day smoker I never had cravings or such. But, and I've mentioned this in several posts, I'm disabled and find it a struggle to find little, fairly affordable hobbies I can intersperse with watching TV or gaming. So now my 'something to do' isn't just going out for a cigarette, it's building and testing out different coils, soon it will include the DIY juice. Losing that would actually have a pretty big impact on me.
Though I totally agree with your main point, vapocalypse isn't going to be nearly as bad as everyone seems to think it will. Based on what we know about PMTA so far, it seems very unlikely that no one will have a liquid nic certified (after all, private labs and such still need to be able to buy it, and I've seen no mention that PMTA will have broad exceptions for companies that sell to medical folks). So, I would expect availability to maybe go down, price up- but not completely vanish.
While it's possibly true in that flavorings never "expire", the base it is in has a limited shelf life. PG supposedly has a 3 year recommended shelf life and VG a 2 year life. That isn't to say your PG-based flavors won't last for 4 years. Store in a cool, dry place for all.
Any that have alcohol will "change" based upon exposure to open air as the alcohol evaporates. Lot of mixers prefer lower alcohol to where that flavoring steeps in faster while also making it more vape-able off the shake. But then any flavor looses it's potency the longer the bottle is open.
EDIT: Some people do freeze their nicotine. And they will sometimes divvy up a 500 mL into smaller bottles.
So if I'm reading this right I could likely feel comfortable purchasing ~ 1 years worth of flavor without any worries. And by then hopefully we have/still have good places for flavor options. I love trying new flavors, so will probably be mixing small batches and buying small quantities of individual flavors.
Debating now how much manuf juice to buy. My initial hope was up to ~ two years (the standard reference shelf life for mixed juice)- but I pretty quickly realized that won't be doable with the amount I'm currently going through 🤣 At this rate I could be going down the DIY road in a month or two. Currently I'm not worrying at all about PG/VG and mixing equipment, and figure I'll start learning the details of the process closer to when it's time to start mixing. (Just background info, to be clear not looking for help with that, I know there's tons of resources here for when I'm ready- just hadn't seen the answers to my specific questions I started with).
Thanks a bunch!
EDIT: I am talking just DIY flavor concentrates
Flavors are typically PG-based. There are some that are VG-based to curry to those with PG allergies. But that's why I mention the shelf-life for those.
Yes, you should be golden for a year. :)
I did notice my TFA Turkish in a 10mL bottle had gotten darker over time. Had it longer than 15 months though. Still using it, but can definitely tell the difference between looking at it and the same concentrate in a fresh 2 oz bottle.
It's really flavor dependent, i have some flavors that have lasted 6+ years with no change while some others only last 2. Usually the color is the first indication, taste second. Can't say I've ever had a flavoring go plain bad, but they change and become "not great".
The CXT no-freezing thing has come up a few times. The consensus seems to be that you should ignore their warning and go ahead and freeze it.
My first 120ml I ordered from them, I left it at room temp and after a few months had darkened and developed a strong taste, but still worked fine.
I've been freezing my CXT now since that happened, and have had no issues. It stays perfect.
Over on ECF, a user has been documenting freezer experiments for several years using nicotine as old as 2014. In november he started including Carolina in the trials. His first results came in last month.
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/nic-base-storage-freezer-vs-room-temp-experiment.791603/page-56#post-22700315
The TL;DR for this is that the best thing you can do for your nicotine is keep it cold.
I strongly suggest decanting the 500mls into smaller amber glass bottles. Exposing the whole batch to air once while doing this is inconsequential compared to the potential damage from thawing, refreezing, opening and closing the same big bottle many times. It's also a lot of eggs in one basket. If a bigger bottle breaks, you'll be that much more SOL in a post-PMTA world.
If you're worried about it, you can purge air from the bottles with argon gas sold as wine preserver. It comes as an aerosol can and you simply spray a little in to displace any oxygen left in the bottle. Argon is heavier than air so it's quite simple to do. ~$15 on amazon, I like ArT brand because they clearly state it's mostly argon, other brands seem to be mixes of various gasses.
The jury is still out on PG vs VG for long term quality. Most lean toward PG, but some think VG may actually protect the nicotine molecules better due to it's higher viscosity. However the VG itself may degrade more than PG would. Personally I don't think it matters much. Again just keep it cold.
Another key tip that doesn't get spread as much as it should is that you should let your frozen nicotine bottles thaw to room temperature before opening. Condensation can form on the inside of the cold bottle or the surface of the cold nicotine liquid, contaminating it with water and degrading its quality.
>My first 120ml I ordered from them, I left it at room temp and after a few months had darkened and developed a strong taste, but still worked fine.
Uh this was opened I hope? That's not much shelf life!
>I strongly suggest decanting the 500mls into smaller amber glass bottles. Exposing the whole batch to air once while doing this is inconsequential compared to the potential damage from thawing, refreezing, opening and closing the same big bottle many times. It's also a lot of eggs in one basket. If a bigger bottle breaks, you'll be that much more SOL in a post-PMTA world.
I totally intend to do this. The idea is I can open a 500ml and spread into smaller bottles, and then when those are gone I can move to the other 500ml. Breakage is part of why I went for the smaller size x 2, as well as intend to purchase a total of 3L.
I'm a little concerned though, it's unlikely I can freeze all three liters as I'll be relying on the freezer in my folks garage most likely.
Is there any info on re-freezing? If the freezer dies for a week, am I better off leaving the nic out or re-freezing? I'd assume re-freezing. When I spread out into smaller bottles they will probably be a combo of cool/dark storage, fridge, and freezer. Advice and storage space depending lol.
Ultimately I'm not suuuuper worried about the nic- I do it for the hobby, I've never had nic cravings despite starting with chew when I was 16. It won't be a disaster for me if I have to vape 0mg diy juice. Based on that I probably oughta mix at 3mg come to think of it.
Thanks!
Yes, I was working from the room temp 120ml.
If you look at the results of the experiment thread, you'll see fridge is an excellent alternative to freezer if need be. Not as good as freezer, but still much much better than room temp.
If the freezer were to lose power or something (this has happened once or twice to the OP in that thread I linked actually), you would be fine to just leave it in there until power came back. The freezer itself will stay cool for several days. On the timescales we're talking here, warming up a handful of times is fine over the course of several years. You just don't want to be working from a large bottle and freeze/thawing it any more than necessary. I decanted into 30ml glass bottles because I can use that whole bottle up all at once and not make too much juice.
(I'm in a similar situation to you, started taking up too much of my parents' freezer so I went and bought a small chest freezer and put it in their garage. It was $120 so I figured it was worth it. I live in an apartment 2000 miles away, so I've got a raspberry pi with temperature probe set to email me if the temp goes above nominal and I can call them and see what's up, haha. My dad vapes too so he's somewhat understanding.)
My parents are not at all, I gave my dad the warning today that I'd be asking soon for some freezer space 🤣 I'm positive they are glad I've quit tobacco and also weed through the help of vaping- but they ultimately don't care lol. I showed it all to my dad today though, kind of explaining how the big deal to me is the hobby aspect- building coils and shit is just plain fun (and I'm disabled so finding little hobbies I can do sitting at home is not easy).
Sounds like a slick setup with the rPi, I've got one I used to run a Plex server off of, but I killed the HDD by swapping it back and forth between Linux and windows too much rip. Reminds me I still need to format and get that running again!
Might be worth looking into though, I guess there's probably smaller freezers than I'm picturing, perhaps I could stick one away in their shed or such even. Thanks!
Purely anecdotally, this all happened 5 years ago in the UK when the TPD regs came In. And we all panic bought nic and flavourings. I ended up with WAY more than I needed and when I moved back to the states from England at the beginning of this year I still had half my stash and had to give it all away.
Anyway, I can speak from 1st hand experience here, there is no degradation. I had my PG suspended nic in 250ml amber glass bottles (that’s how it came to me) all in the freezer and just kept the bottle I was using at room temp in the mixing box. I never noticed any change in flavour or potency for the nic or the flavourings. And I was selling/supplying mixed juice to a half dozen people and none of them noticed any change either. (In fact the person who took it all over from me is STILL using it all and it’s still fine).
Also, while there was all manner of talk there about never being able to buy nic again at more than 20mg. or larger than 10ml bottles, within a couple of mo this of the regs coming in, suddenly there were all manner of websites who would pop up for 2-3 months, selling the stuff at normal prices, then vanish. Still like that there now. You never get to buy from the same company twice, but there is always someone selling the stuff. (A big difference is that EBay uk allows vape stuff so that’s always a good place to find it as well).
Anyway, all of that is to say, nic seems to last damn near indefinitely in the freezer, and even if you don’t have enough, there will always be SOMEONE who will be selling it. I still have stocked up here so I don’t have to deal with it, but it’s not like the FBI is going to be chasing down end users of nic concentrate.
Yea this sort of thing is what I anticipate. Not to mention, under the rules (as far as we've been able to interpret them)- it's basically guaranteed someone will have their liquid nic certified- and still be able to sell it. But at the same time, basically guaranteed ain't guaranteed haha. Thanks!
To be “Safe” I have 2 back up Dual Topsides and a few liters of 48 mg/ml VG. I bought a bunch of amber Boston round in 4 8 and 16 oz. I also purchased several liters of VG and PG which probably wasn’t necessary. Anecdotally nic lasts the longest in a freezer in amber bottles with about a 1/4” from the top. I bought nic and PG and VG from LNW. Bottles are inexpensive from Amazon. I’m putting the VG and PG in amber bottles in a cool dry place away from UV. That’s what I found from extensive research. I also found the complete opposite storage methods. LOL. The glass for everything to avoid plastic leaching. I guess I’ll find out.
Topside Dual is the squonker I got to give a try! Originally I had no interest in squonking- part of getting back into box/mod vaping was I was sick of how easy it was to just absent mindedly puffing away at the Juul all day- at my worst I could easily go through four pods in a day, ugh. But as I started to realize how much cheaper this method was, I got less concerned with the idea of heavy vaping lol.
Thanks for the tips!
Flavors don't expire per se, but may lose potency and/or develop off-flavors over time. And more importantly, your flavor preferences are likely to change over time.
No need to worry about flavor availability under PMTA. I don't know what the vendors whose primary business is nicotine will do, but those who are primarily in the flavor business should be fine. And if all else fails, we can always order directly from FLV, TPA, etc.
My concern is if the market shrinks, sites/businesses that cater to vapers may close even if their core business isn't things like juice/mods/nic. But if these flavor packs are used in other products, it makes sense we will still be able to get them easily.
Logic tells me, even if PMTA leads to widespread shutdowns, someone will rise again to take the remaining market- but that's why I'm stocking up on things like cotton and wire- who knows how long that could take for sellers to pop back up (and I'm particular, afaik we will always be able to get Japanese cotton on Amazon, but it's not my preferred cotton- ordered a 10 pack of Bacon Prime tonight lol).
Side note that really isn't for here to be fair- how confident are we that all kanthal is created equal? Can we be confident Amazon electronics-grade kanthal is just as 'safe' as like the vandy vape kanthal I order? I guess after you dry fire you probably have burned off any potential byproducts or such, hmmm.
Thanks!
I buy my kanthal direct from TEMCo. They're a large industrial supplier of resistance wire and have been the quality standard in vaping for a long time. It's dirt cheap, and they take PayPal. Ship extremely quickly too.
I'd wager most 'vape specific' wire is just rebranded TEMCo spools.
From what I've seen, flavors have at least a two year shelf life, but I've also seen people say that they have had flavors for like six years. I wouldn't worry about getting flavors. Bullcityflavors and Flavor Jungle only sell flavors and with this upcoming PMTA, their business is only going to increase.
I'm honestly sceptical of that, at least a month after PMTA. If you take a look at the other vape subs people are still buying their first devices with no clue what's about to happen. Some people will move to DIY without a doubt, but what will be lost is all the new vapers that slowly graduate into DIY, who also replenish all those who quit/go back to tobacco or juuls/etc. I have no statistics to cite here, but I think that second demographic is probably huge. That being said, I don't diaagree- as long as there's a market at least one or two companies will almost certainly exist to fulfill that market.
I will lookup those two companies, I don't think that was your intent but thanks for the tip! 😆
That was my intent, because if you're buying flavors from LNW, you're dealing with a very limited selection.
Oh excellent, I only pursued there lightly so far, I've read that CX may be having fulfillment issues so wanted to get that order in first. I'll have to check the CC damage next week probably before I place my LNW order. At this rate I should probably abandon my manuf. juice plans so I can better fund the DIY side, and just get started with that sooner than I had planned.
Thanks again!