Hey all! Hope everyone's quarantine has been going swimmingly. Mine has been tight. Shout out to the front line workers
So I was thinking the other day about meta flavors, and how over the years as a community we've been collectively and gradually finding "best in class" type of flavorings.
Ex. TFA Vanilla Bean Ice Cream - this was the go to ice cream concentrate for many years. Still a great flavor, albeit pepper.
Then starting last year LB Vanilla Ice Cream received some traction with the Ice Cream Trinity, and I would say, now, it is considered best in class when it comes to developing an ice cream recipe.
Is LB Vanilla Ice Cream actually better than TFA VBIC? Maybe, but I would argue it's just a tad different and newly exciting - and we got burned out on the plethora of TFA VBIC recipes. This has caused LB Vanilla Ice Cream to shift into the meta, and it is widely accepted as the best in class. I'm not arguing that it's not, but lets take a look at how this came to be.
In my opinion, I think that not only did the LB VIC see more usage, which is integral (exposure to new flavors rocks), but the prevalent and established voices in the community backed its validity. Sometimes someone's words can shift the meta. What does this mean? Just because someone says something is the best, does not mean it is the best. It may be the best for someone, but maybe not you. I encourage everyone to use flavors they haven't used, they haven't experimented with, and quite frankly what other's have deemed as not worthy. Everyone's palette is different. Single flavor test new concentrates!
I'm sure if I asked this community what is the best blackberry, most would say TFA at low percentages. But has anyone tried SC Blackberry? Killer.
Vanilla? Shisha Vanilla crushes! But have you tried WF Vanilla Cream Extra? That stuff is sticky icky good.
These are just a few examples. There are so many different amazing flavors that have yet to shift into the meta, it's just a matter of time.
I like cereal. So I wanted to make some cereal. Super simple.
Here's what the meta milk base would look like.
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1.5% ooo Cream (Milky Undertones)
1-2% FA Meringue
1% FLV Cream
0.5-1% FW Hazelnut
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This looks pretty solid, but it's boring to me now. I wanted simple, but new. Let's flip it and swap some things out. I encourage everyone to do this, as it can create some interesting and delightful interactions between concentrates.
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1.5% FA Milk (You should get it. It's like 2%. Very tasty.)
1.5% TFA Meringue (Works better for that sugary milkiness in my opinion, compared to its FA counterpart.)
0.5% HS Cream (Sleeper pick, whole milk, super buttery and fatty, secret weapon material.)
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and let's keep the 0.5% FW Hazelnut because its tasty and also helps with texture for the cereal - WF Hazelnuts and Cream would also be a good pick here @ around 1.5%.
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Final Recipe
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---Milk---
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1.5% FA Milk
1.5% TFA Meringue
0.5% HS Cream
0.5% FW Hazelnut
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--Cereal & Accents---
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4% CAP Cereal 27 (easy peasy flakes.)
1% VT Banana Custard (for a nice creamy and fruity vibe.)
1% FLV Caramel (brown sugar that bitch.)
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This recipe turned out great, and honestly the usage of HS Cream is what prompted me to start thinking about meta flavors. The flavor is bomb, and I never see it used. Probably because it hasn't been backed, hasn't been used, and is from a less popular company. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, do some exploring. Buy some rando flavors. It might just pan out, and you never know how the meta is going to shift.
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Sorry for the rambling. Be well everyone!
I like to subscribe to the idea that there are no bad flavors (outside the really offensive ones). Just gotta know the right recipe for it, the right application.
Testing out flavors and recipes 80% of the time means I’m vaping something that’s not quite right. I enjoy them at least as much as ‘finished’ mixes. There’s an excitement and mystery around it that I don’t get from ‘knowing’ what I’m tasting, if that makes sense.
I appreciate this post and the sentiment behind it. Subbing gets a bad rap but I like trying some subs and seeing what happens, especially on my own mixes.
I used to think every flavor could be good as well, and then I tried TFA Blue Raspberry.
I’m still not giving up on organic strawberry. Every few months I enjoy the green dirt taste of failure.
One reason your milk isn't the meta milk is that nobody listens to me. Been preaching FA Milk as THE milk and TFA Meringue as a better cereal-milk-izing flavor than FA Meringue (the more authentic meringue) for years! Maybe they'll listen to you. And regardless, awesome post.
I'll second that HS Cream in my experience but with a caveat - most people will want to keep that stuff below 1%, I think. It's potent, and once I go 1% the butter in it starts getting pretty movie-theater-ish.
For me personally, I don't consider HS Cream vapeable. There's this off putting note in there that does not steep away and is present at all %s I've tested. It is possibly the most useless flavor I have, because, I can only conclude, that note is supposed to be there. It's got a strong body and a great texture, but that overbearing flavor is always there even if I put some strong stuff with it. I cannot get it to work. Am I doing something wrong? Am I in the minority? I usually trust your flavor suggestions without question, but that one is listed in my book of lost causes for now.
If you had to describe this off note, what would you say you might compare it to? On a scale from Grandma’s yellow cardigan with the pastel flower patches on the pockets (you know the one) to an old library full of books about Lepidoptera, where would you rank it?
What’s it like to you? Kind of cheesy, maybe?
I'm not sure cheesy is right. I like cheese and cheesy vapes. It's not the same kind of soured or maybe pungent I get from INW Cheesecake or like a Yogurt flavor or something. I really don't know how to explain it. I've never come across anything to even compare it to, but it's not good. I've tried to like it. Went through a lot of testers at different %s over the course of a month or more of steeping and testing every few days.
Mine is very dark colored and smells quite pungent, but, again, not the pungent goodness of a cheesecake or yogurt. More into the region of that sweaty tennis shoe kind of rot smell with some kind of almost rancid fat in there. And almost a metallic edge. It's crazy.
I got HS Blueberry a few months later from the same vendor. The Blueberry it was also dark and does not seem right. I have some HS Blueberry left in a 10ml manufacturers bottle that is pretty light colored. I can't see through the re-bottled HS Cream or HS Blueberry I got from this vendor. I wonder if this vendor's HS flavors may have some issues?
I struggle with this idea of something being described as being "meta", suggesting something else in class isn't good. I also struggle with describing anything as "best".
Something isn't "best" if it's not available. There is no flavor vendor that has every flavor available. There are vendors that are cost prohibitive to me (we think DIY is cheap, but not so when you have to pay elevated shipping charges and exchange on the dollar when ordering from another country). A vendor carries four out of five flavors I need for a recipe: I'll buy a substitute flavor before paying the shipping charge for one bottle from another supplier.
I like u/isuamadog's comment " Just gotta know the right recipe for it, the right application. "
I agree for sure that there really is no meta or best, but there are a few classifications that do work for me like: forgiving, most complete, or almost too easy.
Forgiving flavors might be ones that have a wider range of percent usage but aren't necessarily 'weak'. TPA Sweet Tea is just weak, gotta keep that at 7+ to just notice it. But TPA Peanut Butter Dx can be used from 2-8 with varying degrees of success (and dryness). Or even FLV Pink Guava that does different things at 0.5 and at 2%. Neiter of these will ruin your mix if you go too much out of the generally accepted usage range. Might not be what you want, but for new users isn't such a bad thing to play with, even if you get unexpected results.
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Most complete, I'm thinking about the difference between say, TPA Ry4x2/FA ry4 and JF ry4x2. The first two you're gonna want to mess with at least a little. They're seemingly better for filling in the gaps with stuff you want, but someone who just wants ry4 with maybe just some cream or whatever? JF hits most of the notes and does the job just fine. Or VT persian Lime. It's a great middle of the road lime that adds a good enough lime note to anything without being super anything (zesty, bright, citrusy, green, juicy, etc.).
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Almost too easy is the one that gets me. I know i came here to 'just make something i could vape'. I wasnt looking to win any awards. Did a fair amount of lurking before I got on board and found that many of the 'recommended' flavors are just that, really easy. Meaning, they're really good at delivering that 'one' (or many) specific thing(s). 1% vanilla swirl, 1% flv cream, 1% flv native, 0.5% flv cured, 0.25% cactus, i mean this list goes on and on. And we all develop personal favorites and preferences but we get there by trying stuff out. After a while, I realize I'm in a rut... there were months where I'd make a SnV fruit mix, try a few pulls and then just add 1% FLV PG and 2% Yakima Hops and then it'd taste 'right'. Now I cringe when I see those two together, not because they're bad flavors, but because I overused them.
anyway, long exposition for no good reason other than I love this topic. :)
You lost me at the HS Cream. There's this off putting note in there that does not steep away and is present at all %s I've tested from 0.25% on up to 5%. Do you know what I'm talking about?
It's got a strong body and a great texture, but that overbearing flavor is always there even if I put some strong stuff with it. I cannot get it to work. Am I doing something wrong? Am I in the minority? Do you know which part of the profile I'm talking about? I can't even describe it besides maybe an overbearing, too rich cream note.
I've seen it described as a very authentic note which is present in actual freshly made, high fat creams. I've never encountered it in real life before. Not cranked up to that level though. HS Cream is listed in my book of lost causes for now.
from HS Cream I get buttery, extra thick, whipping cream. Like fresh churned from the cow dairy milk. Heavy duty stuff.
Also rich.
Like Richie Rich.
It may be the super rich creamy part. I'm not sure. I may have a bad bottle.
There was an error when I tried to post the original comment here, and I replied to another comment along the same idea as this one.
This posted sometime overnight. There is a better description of the flavor I get out of it in that other reply.
Great post! I couldn‘t agree more, which also applies to u/isuamadog and u/ID10-T‘s comments.
Niche flavors are used quite often imho, which is why we are always missing one flavor. I know that it’s frowned upon to substitute flavors, but I like doing it after having mixed the original. Once I know just what a recipe should taste like, I like to see where I can take it.
I don’t see any flavors as being best, some are hyped until something else comes along, which is fine. Sometimes, I think that we are much too restrictive with flavors as well as percentages. Less is more has basically become a dogma, which sometimes is fitting, but not in general (at least not to me).
Anyway, thanks for posting your opinion u/xGRANITEx.
hella hype, for sure. I dont get as much disappointment anymore when I pick up a hyped flavor. I feel like the community is big enough now that you can get a wide variety of opinions on something that helps if you're just looking for one specific note.
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i remember when camp tigerclaw was posted in here and people shot it down until they realized it was a concrete mix then it was 'cool' to use a flavor at 12% with 1% cap SS. The bottom line is that any preconceived 'rules' you have for this process is going to hold you back from trying something. Part of the reason why i love the discord is that we sometimes screw around and mix wacky stuff and learn from the experience. This shit is supposed to be fun, so whatever makes it that for anyone, I support it!
Ive noticed the idea of subbing flavors is a big no-no, but if, as u/isuamadog states below, this is supposed to be fun, it shouldn’t be. For me there are certain flavors I know are going to ruin a mix, but they are used a lot, ie; flv pound cake, INW yes we cheesecake and biscuit, VT vanilla buttercream frosting and sweet cream all taste like coconut to me. Isn’t it better to sub them out instead of wasting a mix? If I can see what the intended mix is supposed to be, isn’t it in my interest to use flavors I know I like, and even love to achieve what is intended? It’s a question I ask myself when looking at recipes. It’s no disrespect to the original recipe, it’s a matter of personal preference. Still giving the original it’s due, but making it something I would vape, not toss. What do you think?
I mean, you definitely learn your own tastes and it really is do it yourself. So why wouldn’t you sub out one flavor for another that you find offensive to your tastes? It makes absolutely no sense not to, especially if you’ve experimented and gotten results you can live with based on your own needs.
That said, I do think that there are some recipes that just work as they are. I’d never suggest a sub on something like Cabin or 007 cola. I can’t imagine successfully subbing a thing in those recipes. Where some recipes have cool universal layers you can implement in diff ways, some are unique on their own and need to be experienced that way for them to be successful. Just don’t run around saying the recipe doesn’t work or wonder why people like it because you didn’t actually try it.
I loved that when I was missing a vanilla for one of Alfred’s recipes but said, I have vanilla for pipe he replied, go for it. I did. It was terrible. I loved the experience. Or the time ID10-T and I tried to make a blueberry jam layer in jbird’s skinny mint recipe. A disaster that was just fun to try. Or the time I tried eyemakepizza’s sunshine state I immediately thought I could swap the orange for grapefruit. Wrong. Or idk maybe but my first pass showed that he’d put the effort into making it the way it was.
Anyway, it’s diy and it’s fun as shit. I learn more from the failures than the successes!
Agreed! Learning from failure is a great way to learn what not to do. And really helps me appreciate a little success here and there. I also agree there are recipes that may not sound like they’d work, but once tried you totally get it. But now, there are recipes, like u/id10-t has a sugar cookie, I ALWAYS have a bottle of that, and a bottle of that which I have embellished on. Simple, easy delicious perfection. And finally, yes, it’s fun as shit. Perhaps my favorite hobby to date.
I agree with you on meta flavors becoming so simply because they gained traction. And something I’ve thought lots about. The first flavor order recommendations, are just that, recommendations. If I had stuck to that, I’d have given up. I came on the scene late, so I missed the original hype over flavorah, but the remnants are still there. I came to try and to love flavors all on an equal footing. Creating my own meta flavors. Hangsen is a favorite brand for me, as is one on one, vape train and my ultimate brand if I could only use one from here out would be wonder flavors. I don’t believe the OG diyers would agree with me. I don’t think there is a single flavorah flavor I couldn’t live without (maybe smooth vanilla?). Or INW, the two are a constant source of disappointment for me. INW yes we cheesecake, is flakes of dried out musty coconut to me. INW cactus, my god, the hype, the disappointment, the musty mold. In my beginnings here, those were the brands created by the gods for the gods. I have found since that meta flavors are a place to start and not a stopping point. Tester sizes, single flavor tests, and notes. Copious notes. Because one mans VT sweet cream dream is another mans coconut nightmare.
for FLV and INW I couldn't live without...
INW Shisha Vanilla INW Lemon Mix INW Custard
and
FLV Pink Guava FLV Boysenberry FLV Wild Melon
these are just a few. But I completely agree with your sentiments. VT and WF are crushing it atm for me.
Oh, I forgot about shisha vanilla,, I use that with a smooth vanilla dilution a lot. They also have a vanilla pudding I enjoy, and their Irish coffee is my favorite., creme de menthe, starch, wheat, they do cinnamon better than most.
Ok, I’m now very glad I don’t have to make a choice between vendors.. ✌️