It's often repeated here that when people switch to DIY they notice an increase in quality over commercial liquids. That many popular companies use excess sweetener to hide that their flavours aren't great.
Why does this seem to be the case? If people on the Internet can create delicious recipes and share them as a hobby, surely people paid to mix up recipes can come up with delicious tasting liquids, right? Or am I missing something?
I think the perspectives are kind of biased. It's easier to cherish something you made yourself.
I made commercial juices for years. There's certainly a lot more to it than sweetener. Did I use sweetener? Certainly. Not in every recipe, but I believe you need sugar to bake a cake. If the recipe warrants a sweetener I'd use it. The DIY community puts unnecessary boundaries on their creations.
Go to a store and get some sugar free chocolate and some regular chocolate from the same brand. Try and tell me the one without sugar is equal. It just isn't.
One massive thing professionals have over hobbyists is dedicated time and money to the pursuit of flavor development. Sure there are plenty of bottom shelf brands just throwing TFA Watermelon Candy and some sweetener and calling it a day, but there are many artisans out there spending months and months of 40 hour weeks refining recipes.
You have to realize that to a certain extent many of the people here are speaking from an ignorant perspective. Very few of the members here actually are/were paid professionals in the industry. I'm not saying they aren't talented and dedicated to the craft, because there are certainly some very notable hobbyists, but they literally don't have the resources someone like me has unless they're fortunate enough to not need to work and have lots and lots of money. When XYZ flavor company hits the market I can get their whole line (often for free) shipped to me as soon as it comes out, if not before. It isn't a fair comparison.
I'm sure I'll get downvoted into oblivion, but it's the truth as I see it. There are many EXCELLENT DIY recipes created by this community, but there are just as many if not more excellent mass produced retail flavors too.
100% true, people like to shit on sweetener for no other reason than circlejerking. While it's true that some commercial liquids have an obnoxious amount of it, I think the majority of recipes benefit tremendously if you use it cautiously.
Most of us actually are of the opinion that a little bit of sweetener, when added to a really good recipe, can push it into great territory... we just also realize that if added before then it makes it nearly impossible to tell how to improve the recipe since the sweetener will mask other flaws - which if all you want is juice that is 'good enough' is, well, good enough. But if you want to make something great, you need to develop it without sweetener first. And being overconditioned wrt sweetener, so that you find anything without it somehow lacking, that is not good either. If saying this is 'shitting on sweetener', well, I'm willing to act like I ate something from McDonald's a few minutes ago.
I mean, possibly true for most?
I shit on sweetener. I hate sweetness in vapes. I hate it in food. I hate it in deserts. I hate it in beverages, especially coffee. Sugar itself is really only useful as a balancer when it comes to my pallet. Its already hard at times to make certain vape profiles without too much sweetness inherit to the components. That is without dedicated sweetener.
I've been a chef at a reasonably high level. Part of a team that made dinner for James Beard Award people. Couple of my own dishes served. Sweetness is something I have to be conscious of as I personally dislike it. I can adequately balance dishes with sugars, but if sweet is a prominent part of the profile... I struggle.
I personally don't know how people enjoy certain popular flavors which are so inherently sweet before any dedicated sweetener is added. Its just weird to me anyone could enjoy that and I don't believe it is remotely in balance which is always the goal in the realm of flavor.
Sweetener is the closest thing vaping has to salt's role in food flavor. I get why the industry went straight to it and cannon-balled into that pool. Shame their isn't a better flavor enhancer. Balance is really it. Vape blends don't have the crutches cooking does.
It's also easier to love juice that is made specifically catering to your own tastes. If you love limes but dislike lemons, you're likely to prefer a juice that uses VT Persian Lime for its citrus element than one that uses CAP Lemon Lime.
is there any commercial juice in particular you would recommend?
If you like fruits, I would recommend Twelve Monkeys Ice Age line. it is not crazy overdone and really juicy.
if you are curious about deserts or sweets, I would recommend Steam Train, either Signalman or Timekeeper (won prizes in two conventions).
If you have access to Portugal's Divine Clouds (black line) I would gladly recommend those too. Very balanced and make for great ADV's. None is oversweetened, and really highlights that recipes can be mass produced and still balanced like the best DIY recipes.
Most commercial ejuice is propped up by marketing, labeling, and sweetener. Certainly a lot of companies work hard to craft the recipes before any of that but far more companies care about what sells. And nothing works quite as well as sweetener to overcome a smokers palate.
You mention some important point: There are a lot more dual-users than people who made the switch completely. It's not the kind of statistics we like to see, but no matter what study and country you look at, it always comes out at like: About one third switches completely, two thirds are dual-users for a very long time or never swtich completely.
Even with just a handful of cigarettes a day, your palate is toast.
My ADV has seven ingredients and took months to develop (I'm still tweaking it): I don't use any sweetener. Commercial juice makers add two or three flavors, maybe some ws-23 and 1-2% sweetener. Done and gone to market. Then they tweak it, change it, piss off the loyal who had been buying it and then have to decide "change it back or discontinue it." The reality is that flavors and time are a cost and the aim in business is to make money (not spend it): the longer it takes to develop a juice, the longer it takes to recoup the investment.
This is all a generalization, but I expect this is a big part of the equation. I've got a couple three-flavor recipes that I think are pretty good, so it can be done.
I’m still new to DIY but I would have to guess it depends on shelf life. When you mass produce, stuff sits around forever. When I DIY I make as much as I need and allow it to steep as long as it needs. Also some people switch to vape from smoking to save cash and just need a good value.
Tbh there are plenty of commercial liquid that are incredibly good, better than any DIY recipe I have tried in 3 years.
People who say that about commercial eliquid were possibly vaping affordable 120ml juices before making the switch (Broke Dick, Humble, etc) and well, in that case it's kinda true because those juices really suck.
I've tasted plenty of good commercial juices, but a problem I've encountered is that the same juice sometimes is good, sometimes bad. I don't know why, but I think it's because of steeping. When you buy commercial e-juice, you can't control how long the juice has been steeping, you don't know at what temperatures they have been stored etc. When I started DYI, I bought one-shots from commercial juices like IVG, Vampire Vape, Drip Hacks, Juice Artisan etc, and that way I could get full control of steeping myself, and it always turns out good. It's always good, at a fraction of the cost. Lately I've started mixing single flavours, but this requires a lot more research and experimenting than one-shots.
I work for a small eliquid manufacturer. We spare no expense with our juice and make some pretty complex recipes. Most of our flavors are 20% or higher and almost all contain sweetener. The reason for this is , as previously mentioned, it takes a lot to overcome a smoker’s damaged palate. I smoked for 23 years, always menthol and as a result can barely taste cooling flavors.
Sweetener comes across in the diy world as a junk food. When in fact it’s just another ingredient, or tool to make your recipe better. As though vaping and eating the stuff are one and the same. I don’t believe it masks problems a recipe may have. That sounds elitist and pompous. If you don’t put sugar in a chocolate chip cookie, you have a pretty terrible chocolate chip cookie. As for vaping, there are flavors that are sweet on their own. Knowing which ones comes with time, trial and error. It’s all your palate, your juice, your choice. Vape happy. ✌️