tl;dr I'm moving the Flavors to Avoid from Google Sheets to a fancy new website.
I wanted to take a minute to update everyone on the state and status of the flavor safety sheet.
Since early October, /u/Baade89 and I have scoured, scraped, and pestered every flavor manufacturer we could find contact information for. Under the guidance of toxicologists at TRUSTiCERT SRL, we refined the list of chemicals that we were searching for. A few were removed from the list entirely, but some were upgraded from "caution," to "avoid."
In particular, we received guidance from toxicologists and professors that sucralose should be avoided, as it has been shown to decompose into toxic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons above 120°C. From this study:
> This has intensified the amount of evidence that support the hypothesis that sucralose cannot be suitable for processes that involve temperatures above 120°C up to conditions near pyrolisis [sic].
And from this one:
> ... thermal decomposition occurs at 119ºC with liberation of constitution water and HCl.
I am aware that this is/will be controversial, because sucralose is used in a wide variety of flavors and is something that many of us have vaped for years with no obvious ill effects. Everyone has to come to their own decisions about which substances they are comfortable vaping, and I respect whatever decision you come to. My only goal is to convey the facts as I understand them after my own research and that of as many experts as I can find.
One of the things that multiple toxicologists mentioned to us was a saying - "the dose makes the poison." This is where our work will continue - now that we have a fairly robust set of data (over 3,000 data sheets scanned and several manufacturers providing complete verification of the SDS data) I will be looking to enrich it with more "concentration" information - that is, the percentage that various substances of concern are being used at in our flavors. If sucralose is used at 0.01%, for example, it may not be much of a concern, but at 5% it could be problematic. It's impossible to know how any two compounds will interact when heated together unless specific research has been done. Multiple researchers mentioned the idea that every substance you cut out of your "diet" decreases your aggregate risk because of the reduced number of interactions possible.
The new site provides functionality that was not available in the Google Sheet, such as:
- Listing all flavors/ingredients for a given vendor
- Listing all vendors/flavors for a given ingredient
- Listing all ingredients for a given flavor
- Filtering on multiple fields
Please visit safety.diyejuice.org for the latest and most in-depth information available. I will stop updating the Google Sheet at the end of the month, and I will replace its contents with a link to the site at the end of February. In case anyone thinks I have sinister motives in doing this, the site does/will not have any ads or revenue and the code is open source.
Thank you for your time, and stay safe!
EDIT: Fixed a few spelling/grammar mistakes.
Oh, no! Not my precious TFA Honey!
Nice site, Tesla. May wanna put the link in Vaping Sugars, or just totally remove it from the WIKI
I'll use this opportunity to once again give a huge thanks to u/TeslaDelMar and u/baade89 !
You have both spent a lot of time and effort working on this, for the benefit of us all - and I think I speak for all (well most of us at least) when I say that we are very grateful.
Keep up the great work!
And to the rest of you - Vape safely ;)
stupendous work!
(standing ovation)
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I didn't know a couple TFA flavors had vitamin E : /
It's 1 % or less so, likely harmless
And a few inawera flavas have peppermint oil
​
And good point about dosage, concentration IS everything
even vitamins are toxic in high amounts
People have died from vitamin A poisoning, im surprised the FDA hasn't banned it
/S
> I didn't know a couple TFA flavors had vitamin E : / > It's 1 % or less so, likely harmless
Vitamin E is often used in the food industry (in tiny amounts) as a preservative (it prevents other ingredients from oxidation.) Still, lipids are something that should be completely avoided in vape juice.
> And a few inawera flavas have peppermint oil
Yes, and they are fantastic! Natural peppermint flavor costs a little more than synthetic, and may contain traces of a few substances of potential concern, but it tastes so much better.
Important to know: It contains essential peppermint oil. Essential oil is NOT an oil in the sense of vitamin E oil and at minimal levels, it's certainly not a problem. There are even essential oil vapes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Goa3aZSjaqw
I appreciate this, but I just ordered super sweet as one of my first flavors last night and was looking forward to it :/ oh well I’m glad I knew before I started vaping it
The danger is in the dose as said. 0.5% super sweet is not 0.5% sucralose. It's suspended in pg and likely 10% dilution. So you are looking at 0.05% sucralose or 0.1% if you like sweet and mix it at 1% which to me is way too sweet.
I would not stress over that tiny amount. As was stated lots and lots of us have been vaping super sweet for years. That's not too say it's totally safe, it's just a very very small amount and I personally don't sweat it at all.
The choice is yours.
Is there any mint flavoring that doesn't contain peppermint oil?
Yes, there are several - in general, if the flavor is not listed on the site but the vendor is, then that flavor likely does not have any concerning ingredients. Unfortunately it might be a while before we can positively assert a list of flavors that 100% do not have any concerning ingredients.
Sucralose will be avoided. How's ethyl maltol? Want one form of sweetener for a couple of recipes and might go with ethyl maltol instead if that's a better alternative.
Appreciate all the hard work that has went in to this.
Fortunately I only have a few flavors on the avoid list. FLV cookie dough was disappointing to see and I’m not surprised to see all of the sweeteners on the list.
Good reason to avoid commercial juice since a ton of them are packed to the gills with sweetener.
Totally agree with avoiding sucralose, in fact that's the main reason I started DIY mixing.
But classifying something as time-honored and ubiquitous as natural peppermint oil as avoid? Come on...
> Peppermint oil (CAS #8006-90-4 )Avoid > Contains pulegone/menthofuran, toxic and inflammatory
Αh, the old "we've been using it for a long time, therefore it has to be safe" self-deception.
You know, exactly like how we've been smoking for years.
From https://nccih.nih.gov/health/peppermintoil :
Mint has been used for health purposes for several thousand years. It is mentioned in records from ancient Greece, Rome, and Egypt. However, peppermint was not recognized as a distinct kind of mint until the 1700s. Today, peppermint is used as a dietary supplement for irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), other digestive problems, the common cold, headaches, and other conditions. Peppermint oil is also used topically (applied to the skin) for headache, muscle aches, itching, and other problems. Peppermint leaf is available in teas, capsules, and as a liquid extract. Peppermint oil is available as liquid solutions and in capsules, including enteric-coated capsules.
[...]
Excessive doses of peppermint oil can be toxic.
Again, multiple toxicologists told us that this was a clear example of a chemical to avoid. This is because peppermint oil contains menthofuran, which is toxic and inflammatory to lung tissue.
Furthermore, physicians agree that
> Like many essential oils, peppermint oil can be toxic and even lethal at excessive dosages
> Many people think essential oils are harmless because they are natural and have been used for a long time. In some cases, that is simply not true. Many essential oils can cause rashes if used on the skin. Many can be poisonous if absorbed through the skin or swallowed. Few have been tested like medicines have, even though people put them in their mouths, on their skin, and in their children’s vaporizers. Aspirating an essential oil can cause pneumonia; this can happen if someone tries to swallow it, but chokes so that a little goes into the lungs.
So I respectfully disagree with your assessment of peppermint oil as safe.
> So I respectfully disagree with your assessment of peppermint oil as safe.
I'm not saying it's safe at any dose, but I don't quite see why you labelled it as something to be categorically avoided.
Don't you agree there is value to distinguishing between ingredients that should be categorically avoided, and ingredients that can become toxic at excessive dosages?
I would think that substances which may become toxic at higher dosages should be labelled as (use with) caution, while I would reserve the avoid label for substances that are harmful at any dose--e.g. sucralose (which releases carcinogenic decomposition products when heated above 119C), tocopherol (vitamin E) and other lipids, etc.
That's fair, I can bring it up with Baade and our other contacts and gather some more information for you, for sure. The current rationale for the categories is:
- Avoid - There is evidence that this ingredient is toxic when vaped
- Caution - There is evidence that this ingredient can be toxic when vaped
- Research - All other ingredients that we are interested in tracking
Because peppermint oil contains both pulegone and menthofuran, and because pulegone breaks down to menthofuran and other PAH, and because there is evidence that menthofuran is toxic to humans at very low concentrations when ingested, we have evaluated peppermint oil as an "avoid" ingredient.
> substances which may become toxic at higher dosages
Per this study:
> Peppermint oil had been previously reported to be hepatotoxic[1,5] and nephrotoxic[3]. Hepatotoxicity is attributed to the presence of pulegone, which is a recognized hepatotoxin[1] . It is found in young peppermint leaves and is later metabolized to menthol. There is a residual concentration of 1-4% of pulegone in peppermint oil.
In September of last year, a study was published in JAMA that found extremely high pulegone levels in commercial e-liquids. Even Big Tobacco has taken steps to limit the amount of pulegone in their menthol products.
You're right that flavors using peppermint oil at a very low concentration are possibly fine, but we are going based on expert guidance specifically related to vaping that says that it's one of the most concerning ingredients on the list of 32 chemicals we provided to the researchers. They ranked it higher than Fructose and Corn Syrup. Because we're not in a place where we can establish safe exposure limits for most of these ingredients, we'd be hard pressed to make the distinction that you are proposing, but I appreciate the feedback!
Your list is meaningless without knowing what actual doses make up what we expose ourselves to in vaping.
Just saying that "This is known to be toxic and inflammatory" isn't really proving that it's dangerous to vape. The dose makes the poison.
Do you not eat apples because there's cyanide in them?
The cyanide is in the seeds, and we know that there's not enough to kill you because it has been tested exhaustively for hundreds of years, thousands if you count the time we were guinea pigging it before the scientific method. We've been vaping for 10-15 years, we have almost no information on concentrations for the various ingredients involved here and the pool of scientific literature is much smaller.
I agree with the sentiment that we're not providing enough information to make a fully informed decision, but I take offense to the idea that this work is "meaningless," because no one will ever die because they decided not to use a flavor based on this website. Unfortunately, finding "the dose" is incredibly tricky - the best case we've encountered was one where Wonder Flavors gave us very detailed (to five decimal place) breakdowns of furfural concentrations for their flavors (props to them for that!). We will need more co-operation from flavor houses moving forward in order to start closing the gap and being able to make stronger assertions about the safety of individual flavors.
Just ignore it then. See if he cares.
Edit (more thought out reply):
This is not a law. It's a list of the known facts and resources to help you decide. Use it or don't, it's up to you.
But people spent time and effort to compile all this to give you one more tool to use. So calling it meaningless is rude to say the least.