Good evening, all.
I nearly forgot to post a Modest Monday today, my brain has been all over the place lately. So, it's Monday, and we all have a long week of work, mixing, or gaming (anyone else playing way too much Apex Legends lately?) ahead of us, but hopefully, I can make the start to your week a little better. This week, I'm actually taking a step away from mixing to address something that needs to be talked about, protecting your recipes.
Why Should We Care?
So, I'm sure the majority of mixers are not here to make money off of their recipes, but I can guarantee that the majority would be pretty unhappy if someone else was making money off of their recipes. And hey, if that doesn't bother you, either, then feel free to hop out now, hopefully next week's Modest Monday will interest you more. If you're still in here, then I guess you would rather not let someone else make money off of your hard work. I can't speak for everyone, but I have encountered a few websites that were selling my recipes without my permission.
How did I know they were my recipes? Well, some were taking the descriptions from my ATF recipe pages and doing the ol' copypasta over to their product listing. Other times, I've had my actual recipe name ripped. And in a very specific instance, someone not only took the title and description, but also used my artwork on the product listing. What a bummer. Anyway, because I have my recipes protected, once I found out about this bullshit, I was able to send an email to the company and have my stuff taken down. I was cheeky though, told them I'd be more than happy to sell them the recipes (for a ridiculously inflated price considering they tried to steal my shit).
How Can I Protect My Recipes?
This is a bit easier, especially if you're using All The Flavors. I'm going to bother /u/Queuetue after I post this to see if we can get some free ATF subscription codes for people who don't already use his site, so check the comments on this post to see what he can offer. Anyway, using ATF is nice because Scott has already implemented a small bubble of protection for people who post recipes on his site. While I'm sure the Creative Commons license on ATF isn't an airtight way to keep your recipes safe, it's certainly better than nothing, and will deter these snakes from straight ripping your work for their own gain.
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I am not a legal expert, by any means, so I'll explain why I use the license that I put on any recipe that I make public on All The Flavors. I simply use the CC ATTRIBUTION-NONCOMMERCIAL 4.0 option, which essentially means that people can share and use my recipes for any personal reason (1:1 mix, something to work off of, etc), however, they cannot sell the exact recipe that I've posted. Of course, this doesn't stop someone from taking my recipe, adjusting the percentages a bit and claiming it's their own mix, but it does force them to at least do a menial amount of legwork to "steal" from me. Below are the other options available on ATF, if someone in here understands these better than I do, please elaborate on them in the comments for anyone else who cares. It's worth noting that there are explanations to all of these licensing options on All The Flavors, but I am horrid at explaining them in simple terms, so any help is greatly appreciated:
- CC Attribution 4.0
- CC Attribution-NoDerivatives 4.0
- CC Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0
- CC Attribution-Noncommercial 4.0
- CC Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0
- CC Attribution-NonCommercial-Sharealike 4.0
- All The Flavors Public Domain
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Alright, so that's how we can easily protect our recipes using All The Flavors. This is a huge reason why I support ATF and use it over ELR, I don't believe there is any way to protect your work on ELR without doing it all yourself, and I have seen countless stories and instances of recipes being stolen and sold off of ELR. Now, lets move on to the next thing to think about when protecting your recipes...
"What If Someone Wants To Buy My Recipe?"
This is where things get a lot more tricky. Sometimes, someone will hit you up seeing if you would like to sell a recipe, allow them to distribute your recipe commercially, or commission you to create an entirely new recipe for them to sell. A lot of people, myself included, have trouble figuring out how much to price their work. Again, from personal experience, I'm going to try and help you get a baseline in place so you can make some money if the opportunity arises.
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If someone just wants to buy your recipe directly, think of how much time it took you to make the recipe. How long did you spend testing, perfecting, and honing in on that recipe? Take that into consideration when selling a recipe. Remember, when doing this, the client is most likely going to make you remove all instances of the recipe from all platforms (ATF, ELR, reddit, etc.), so no one else is going to be able to mix this recipe again, unless they already have it duplicated in their own recipe book (hint hint, you should do this for yourself). But back to pricing, take these things into consideration, but also keep in mind that most times, companies are selling e-liquid for $15-30 per 60ml, so it won't take them long to turn a profit.
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For my own work, I typically won't sell a single recipe for less than $400, but that's just a starting point. If I particularly like the recipe, or it has a lot of popularity among the community, I'll price it closer to $800. The way I see it, if I can pay my rent with one sale, then I'm willing to part ways with it. Find your own way to price your work, and hold true to that. Don't lowball yourself, but don't pretend like you're the da Vinci of mixing.
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Now, what about commission work? If someone approaches you asking to create a new recipe for them to sell, there are some big things to make sure happen before you even START working on it. First off, make sure there is a contract in place to protect both parties. It doesn't have to be some crazy, 10 page long contract, but just something that legally assures that you will be getting paid, and that they will be getting the product from you. One thing I'd suggest getting added to a contract is that the client will pay for any supplies you need to get the work done. Usually, these commission jobs will require you to send samples to the client for them to test, so you'll need extra PG, VG, nicotine, bottles, flavor concentrates, etc. Do what you can to make sure the client is paying for these things. It's a bit difficult to have them pay for every concentrate you'll need, knowing full well you won't need 60mls of a concentrate to put a recipe together. However, if you can convince them to hit you up with $50 for concentrates, you can get a lot of what you'd need to get the work done. 10mls of a concentrate will go a long way when testing, if you're smart.
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Now, onto pricing for a commission recipe. These take a lot more work, effort, and time, so a price of $400 is obscenely too low. I would usually charge a client $1,000 for one recipe, and that price goes lower per recipe if they sign a contract for more than one recipe. For example, if someone were to ask me to develop 4 recipes for a new line they'd like to release, I'd drop that price somewhere between $600 - 750 per recipe. Finally, make sure you are getting some payment up front, just to further solidify that the client is serious. If you ask for $250 up front, non-refundable unless YOU back out or do not deliver, this prevents you from doing a bunch of work and walking away empty handed. $250 for stuff you would normally do anyway is still a good deal, even if that's all that comes of it if you are dealing with a shit head client. Make sure that upfront deposit is added to the contract, as well.
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Finally, time. Figure out how long it would take you to put together a recipe that you know is 100% complete. This is different than personal mixing. You need to make sure it's good, but also going to be enjoyable for other people. If you're working on a tobacco recipe, I would ask for no less than 3 months time from start to finish. This way, you can let your test bottles age, see how they change over that time, and then adjust accordingly. If you're working on a fruit or candy recipe, you can probably get that done in a month or two. Again, this is commercial mixing, you need to be sure your recipe will stay tasty after a month of aging on a shelf.
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Well, that's about it for today. I hope this helps everyone, at least a little bit, in protecting your recipes and making sure you get paid accordingly if someone is interested in distributing your work, commercially. I highly encourage people to add their own suggestions in the comments below, or tell a story about your own experience with this topic. Also, if you'd like to hear me break down a certain topic in mixing for future Modest Mondays, please let me know!
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As always, keep fucking mixing, keep fucking up, and stay fucking evil.
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FYI, CC licenses are useless for this purpose: recipes are not copyrightable, at least not in the US. They may be patentable, but this is a big 'may be;' the non-obvious hurdle is a big one.
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The best way to protect a recipe is both the simplest, oldest, and hardest method: keep it secret.
This is definitely true, keeping it secret is the best and only real way to protect your stuff. I dont know shit about copyright and patents, so this is helpful. I've just noticed that since having the image of protection on my recipes, I've had an easier time keeping my shit from being stolen. But I'm sure that's just because 90% of the companies stealing shit are just stupid.
Probably true. But I think straight ripping the name, description, and artwork are likely to fall afoul of copyright infringement.
Oh, yeah. The name may not be copywriteable, depending, but the description and the artwork definitely would be. But while the name, art, and description might get someone to try a juice, it's likely not what's keeping them at it.
The name may be subject to trademark, but you actually need to be trading in it to obtain trademark without registration, and generic names can't be trademarked. Artwork, on the other hand, is subject to copyright, and may be trademark as well, as is the description, notes, etc. (Basic instructions, not so much.) That's why cookbooks are heavily illustrated and much more blurb than recipe - those are the elements that can be protected.
1/4 of all “National Brands” and 7/8th of “In House made Juice” are just recipes from Ejuice recipes, Reddit, or ATF. Fact.
Ayyy /u/Queuetue , could we get a new coupon code for a month of ATF for anyone who doesn't already have a subscription? I'll provide my undying love as compensation. Or my body, whichever you prefer.
Isn't there like a whole licensing process for each flavor companies have to go through? Something that costs a few grand and needs to be done for each nicotine level. I'm not saying the potential isn't there, but odds are kind of low and it would be pretty costly. I don't think the pros of sharing and caring really outweigh the cons of potential lost income. . . .
Yep, all these recipes posted can't be sold. In fact I'd wager everyone selling juice on the classies when that was still around was doing so illegally. I'd also wager that the people selling in person sell other people's recipes all the time.
If you take this to the culinary world you will also find out that recipes can't be copyrighted like other things.