This is a project I agreed to take on after it was pointed out that so many of the resources in sidebar and wiki are ancient. The idea is, rather than revising them myself, I'd post them here once per week to gather feedback on how to improve them. They belong to all of us, everyone should have a say in what they say.
Last week we reworded the welcome in the wiki with help from /u/boomdog07, /u/INTERLINKED, and especially /u/Leapinglabrats. You can view that here.
The first link in the index now goes to the DIY Beginner's Guide, and the first article there is a link to a post entitled Why DIY? that was written by /u/muranternet and reposted by Botboy for easier reference three years ago. Here it is re-posted again:
Is DIY For You?
Pretty strange question since you're bothering to read this, but it's a question you should ask. It's easy to read, "I make 5 gajillion ml of premium juice for .03 Zimbabwe dollars hue hue" and think it's a no-brainer, but it's not that simple. DIY takes some upfront capital, lots of experimentation, multiple orders from multiple suppliers, failures, handling hazardous materials, and patience. First you should probably figure out exactly why you want to DIY.
Why Do You Want to DIY Anyway?
There are lots of reasons, and none of them are exactly bad, but some of them may be unrealistic or invalid for you. I don't know your situation, so the answer is always, "it depends."
Saving Money.
It's true that finished DIY juice is usually cheaper by volume than even the most basic of commercial juice. I say "usually" because it's possible to pick up some truly awful stuff at $0.10/ml, and a juice using a lot of expensive Capella flavorings can easily go over $0.20/ml. Granted the expensive stuff should taste better, but taste is subjective and maybe it doesn't matter that much to you. (There are some cheapo Chinese juices that I find tolerable.)
However, the combined cost for your super-awesome homemade Koolada Durian Blast of $0.07/ml isn't the whole story. You need to spend money upfront, sometimes hundreds of dollars (if you're a flavor junkie like me) on flavors, nic, solvents, syringes, pipettes, measuring and mixing flasks, bottles, labels... all the things that you'll find elsewhere in this wiki, and then some. And then there's the cost of the juices that fail completely, the stuff you spill, the power to run your ultrasonic mixer or your slow cooker, the stuff you give away to your friends because you honestly have no idea what a Kretek tastes like and need feedback, etc. etc.
It should pay off... eventually. If you're really curious, calculate the amount you spend per week on juice, compare that to the money you're going to spend to start up, and see how long it takes to get your money back. If you're super-budget conscious and spend $15 a week at Mount Baker (to get the free sample, of course) vaping 30mls/week (assuming you hate half your order), your initial hardware capital (mixing stuff, etc.) costs you $40 and your juice cost is about $0.10/ml, it should take you about 3.5 weeks to recoup your costs. That's not true, of course, since you will vape more on flavor tests and the like, and it doesn't quite cover the investment in bulk liquids you made. If your total outlay including flavors and nic base is closer to $200, it's more like 15 weeks. Still a good deal, but it's not the instant savings coupon many imagine it to be.
What if you want to save money because you buy super-premium juices? If you manage to perfectly clone the super juice in the first week, then yes you can recoup much faster. However, you're not likely to do this. Mixers of reputable premium lines spend a lot of time developing their flavors, and you're not likely to duplicate their recipes with your 6 sample flavors and a recipe you found with your copy of eJuiceMeUp. In fact, go ahead and stretch that time out, since you will still be buying that stuff you're so hooked on while you hunt that wumpus.
I Want to Know What's In My Juice
If this is your motivation, then DIY is the best option for you. Note that any reputable juice vendor will tell you if they have a specific ingredient in their mix like diacetyl, but sometimes they don't know, underestimate the toxicity of an additive, or are just scum who don't care. DIY lets you control your ingredients to the extent that you understand your components. Titrate your nicotine base, carefully investigate all your flavors, and don't resort to non-USP solvents.
Nobody Makes the Flavor I Want
Might not be true; it might be more accurate to say, "Nobody makes the flavor I want at less than 4 gold bricks per ml." There are some flavors that are notoriously difficult to mix, or nigh-impossible. DIY is for you, and if you succeed, you might be able to sell your creation. Maybe.
I Want to Open a Commercial Line of E Juice
Hoo boy. I have no experience here, except to say that I have run into no less than three people who got into DIY with this as their specific goal, all three rushed into it, and all three created unvapeable muck. Making a juice that you like is one thing. Making a juice that has mass appeal, or even niche appeal, and being able to support commercial production is completely different. Do you have an LLC? Can you afford insurance? Can you take credit cards? Do you know B&M owners who will stock your stuff, whether wholesale or consignment? How good are you at promotion? My advice is to start out trying to make juice that you and your friends/family like, see if a wider circle likes it, and go from there.
De Gubmint Takin Way Our Nic!
Maybe. I don't know. It seems more likely that nic may become more expensive as it becomes more regulated. A bigger concern might be the unavailability of your favorite juice provider(s) due to increased compliance costs. Fortunately, nic base is relatively inexpensive and will last in brown glass in the freezer for several years at the very least, and you don't use all that much. Keep an eye out for nic sales from vendors who aren't terrible and take a shot.
It Sounds Fun
Kinda is. This may be the best reason of all.
What Are the Downsides of DIY?
Quite a few actually. It's easy for an experienced mixer to say, "Oh there are no downsides. Any reasonably trained Yorkie can do this." Maybe they got lucky, maybe they have a natural aptitude for it, but more likely they forgot how terrible they were when they started.
DIY Requires Handling Hazardous Chemicals
Nicotine is toxic. Never forget that. I think to myself, "Nicotine is toxic" the same way I think, "Every gun is loaded." Yes, you might spill some on you and just get a head rush for a while, or no ill effects. Why do you even need gloves? You never spill anything. Well, that's true, until you do. Safety equipment is not there to keep you from having to pay attention; it's there to save your ass when something unexpected goes wrong. It will also kill children and pets in much lighter concentrations. It will also kill idiot roommates who don't know what the hell they're taking out of the freezer late at night when they're snooping around for your vodka bottles. If any of this makes you uncomfortable, you might think twice about handling high concentration nicotine in your household.
DIY = Lots of New Stuff
Bottles. Flavors. Syringes. Pipettes. Test vials. Huge friggin' jugs of propylene glycol. You will not believe how much extra stuff you have lying around when you get into DIY. You should ideally have a separate room where you work on this, or at least a toolbench, lab bench, or even just a rack of trays to hold all of the crap you're going to be spending your money on, if only to keep yourself from tripping over things and sending precious bottles of flavor concentrates flying.
DIY Requires Patience
If you think waiting two weeks for your bottle of Banana Nut Bread to cure is annoying, wait until you have twenty-something vials of juice sitting in a dark box somewhere. You can, of course, drip freshly-mixed juices right away if you want, but if you're a fan of custards, or tobaccos, or bakery, or dumb experiments with 12 flavors like the ones I try, you're going to need to wait. Even if you heat-steep, it takes time for flavors to merge and bloom. I know this, and yet I can't help myself, so my test batches are between 8 and 10ml instead of the usual 5 so I can sneak tastes while the process continues. If you're not as much of an aspie as I am, you might not have this problem, but in my experience people who DIY do tend to spend a lot of time dialing in flavors and experimenting. It's one of the reasons we do it in the first place.
TLDR?
Bottom line is DIY may or may not be for you. If you have commercial juices you like and meet your needs and are well within your budget, you might not even bother. If you're in a living situation where nic base would be dangerous to keep around, like a studio apartment with unruly kids or a frat house with idiots, you definitely don't want to do this. If you're impatient and disorganized and can admit this to yourself (I am both of these things, but I compensate pretty hard), this may not be for you.
However, for those of us who want to know what goes into our juice, and those with an eye toward experimental flavor combinations, this may be right for you. Suck up the initial investment, start keeping careful records, and even if you don't create a recipe that prints money, you will have the satisfaction of vaping something you created, something you can tweak to your liking, something that's better than most of the commercial stuff on the market. And even if it's only "as good," it costs you a tiny fraction of what it would in a store, and to me that automatically makes it better.
My question to y'all is, does this "Why DIY?" post stand the test of time? Can it be improved/updated? What, if anything, would you add/remove/revise?
I had to approve my own post after it was removed by the autobot, who sent me this message:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/8ss9rw/throwback_thursday_why_diy/
Your post was removed due to the fact that ultrasonic cleaners are a waste of money and do nothing to improve the quality of your juice.
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>syringes, pipettes, measuring and mixing flasks, bottles, labels... all the things that you'll find elsewhere in this wiki, and then some. And then there's the cost of the juices that fail completely, the stuff you spill, the power to run your ultrasonic mixer or your slow cooker
So... a bunch of that should be removed. No reason for anyone to waste money on syringes, beakers, stir plates, slow cookers (other than making some nice pulled pork to eat after a long mixing session) or ultrasonic cleaners (other than occasionally cleaning RDAs).
jesus, I haven't had a pulled pork samich in forever. would a pulled pork ejuice request be gross? god, I'm so fucking hungry right now
I could see situations where beakers and syringes could be used.
The only reason I use syringes now is because if I'm ordering a 4+oz bottle of something from Bull City or anywhere it's not going to come in a small easy to drip bottle most of the time, so I'll use a syringe in combination with my scale to get the correct amount. I also like to use a glass syringe for my nicotine solution. I'll boil it and replace the needle about once a month to try and keep it sterile when it's not packed away in a ziplock bag.
For beakers I personally have 1-gallon jugs of VG and 500-1000ml bottles of pg. When I'm getting ready to mix I like to use beakers to put vg and pg in because trying to pour vg/pg into a chubby gorilla bottle from such a huge container would be near impossible.
This may not be something to suggest to a newer person trying to get into DIY but I do think they are viable in the DIY world, especially for more experienced mixers.
Ah. I usually sacrifice a 120ml chubby gorilla to use for concentrate if I get a big bottle of flavoring. That way I can still squeeze... maybe a bunch of syringes would be cheaper, I guess?
funnels are my friend. I ordered like 20 5ml LDPE bottles for sample batch mixes and they came with the most tiniest little funnel, they're so fucking cute and small.
I'll edit this post later with a pic when I get home. srsly, they're the cutest thing I've ever seen and they make my mixing so much more fun. a quick rinse and paper towel dry and they're back on my table doing what they do best... they funnel stuff haha
I tried pipettes and stuff when I was starting out. Total waste of time. Decent scales is all you need. I do use beakers though as once I have a flavor I like I mix a few 100 mls of it and then bottle it for steeping.
I use pipettes for the bottles of flavoring that don't come with a tip. For example,I have about 6 FA flavorings in 15ml size that just came with a cap. So, when using that flavor I just grab a pipette. Maybe it's because I'm only 9 months in to DIY and I still buy the small sizes of flavors.
The biggest thing I preach to people about DIY is that it only has to be as complicated as you want.
Sure you could develop all your own flavors and experiment with all different kinds of concentrates and create new recipes.
You can also cherry pick some recipes online with flavor profiles you think you'd like and buy concentrates accordingly and then just mix by numbers from there. This is how I started.
I've recently started making an unflavored base and then just adding a few drops of whatever in there. No more than 2 different flavors. I'm not a flavor chaser, completely unflavored juice is actually not bad. Add in a few drops of strawberry and almond and I'm on my way.
truth. DIY is way easier than it may seem. 99% of people would probably be perfectly fine dripping a few drops of TFA Strawberry and some sweetener in a bottle of base.
it's true. I had no idea VG was actually sweet just on its own
Also worth noting is that different vendors of VG seem to have varying levels of sweetness and off-flavours. I WAS using Essential Depot VG for years and didn't entirely mind it, because I was used to it, but then I tried other brands and realized that the Essential Depot stuff actually has a weird, kind of dirty off note to it that was affecting my recipes.
Or maybe my recipes were just shit to begin with. Had to add that in there for /u/skiddlzninja
I totally agree. Only recently have I really tried making my own recipes. Normally, I just check out the monthly recipes whenever I'm running low on flavorings and need to make an order. That's how my collection of flavorings and recipes has slowly expanded over time without too huge of an investment.
>0.03 Zimbabwe dollars
>koolada durian blast
>reasonably trained Yorkie
First of all, I love your sense of humor! I was really not expecting to be so entertained by this post but oh boy.
I think it’s still useful to someone like me who’s toying around with the idea and its helpful that it lists out the downsides of diy as well. Maybe adding the part about pros and cons of max vg/high pg e liquid?
Edited for formatting and a few words
I wish I could take credit for that silliness but it was all /u/muranternet , wherever he or she is now.
I don't know about getting into the whole thing about pros and cons right in the Why DIY? bit, but certainly something should be mentioned about having complete control over the VG/PG ratio, unlike with commercial juices which are sometimes sold only in one ratio for the entire brand.
Here's my remix on it;
"Is DIY For You?
Pretty strange question since you're bothering to read this, but it's a question you should ask. It's easy to read, "I save a lot of money making my own e-liquid", but it's not that simple. DIY takes some upfront capital, lots of experimentation, sometimes multiple orders from multiple suppliers, failures, handling hazardous materials, and patience. First you should probably figure out exactly why you want to DIY.
Why Do You Want to DIY Anyway?
There are lots of reasons, and none of them are exactly bad, but some of them may be unrealistic or invalid for you. I don't know your situation, so the answer is always, "it depends."
Saving Money.
It's true that finished DIY juice is usually cheaper by volume than even the most basic of commercial juice. I say "usually" because it's possible to pick up some truly awful stuff at $0.10/ml, and a juice using a lot of expensive flavorings can easily go over $0.20/ml. Granted the expensive stuff "should" taste better, but taste is subjective and maybe it doesn't matter that much to you.
However, the combined cost for your super-awesome homemade super inexpensive e-liquid isn't the whole story. You need to spend money upfront, sometimes hundreds of dollars on flavors, nic, bottles, labels, saftey equipment (goggles, gloves, etc) and either volumetric(syringes, pipettes, etc) or weight mixing (scale) equipment... all the things that you'll find elsewhere in this wiki, and then some. And then there's the cost of the juices that fail completely, the stuff you spill, the stuff you give away to your friends because you need feedback, etc. etc.
It will pay off... eventually. If you're really curious, calculate the amount you spend per week on juice, compare that to the money you're going to spend to start up, and see how long it takes to get your money back. If you're super-budget conscious and spend $15 a week on liquid and your initial hardware capital (mixing stuff, etc.) costs you $40 and your juice cost is about $0.10/ml, it should take you about 3.5 weeks to recoup your costs. That's not always true, of course, since you will likely vape more on flavor tests and the like, and it doesn't quite cover the investment in bulk liquids you made. If your total outlay including flavors and nic base is closer to $200, it's more like 15 weeks. Still a good deal, but it's not the instant savings many imagine it to be.
What if you want to save money because you would like to clone (that is, make an identical copy) of a premium juice? Mixers of reputable premium lines spend a lot of time developing their flavors, and you're not likely to duplicate their recipes with your 6 sample flavors and a recipe you found online, though there are some famous recipies out there that can be similar.
I Want to Know What's In My Juice
If this is your motivation, then DIY is the best option for you. Note that any reputable juice vendor will tell you if they have a specific ingredient in their mix like diacetyl, but sometimes they don't know, underestimate the toxicity of an additive, or are just scum who don't care. DIY lets you control your ingredients to the extent that you understand your components. Titrate your nicotine base, carefully investigate all your flavors, and don't resort to non-USP solvents.
Nobody Makes the Flavor I Want
That may not be quite true; it might be more accurate to say, "Nobody makes the flavor I want at an affordable price." There are some flavors that are notoriously difficult to mix, or nigh-impossible.
I Want to Open a Commercial Line of E Juice
Not to say that it can't be done, but making a juice that has mass appeal, or even niche appeal, and being able to support commercial production is very difficult. Do you have an LLC? Can you afford insurance? Can you take credit cards? Do you know B&M owners who will stock your stuff, whether wholesale or consignment? How good are you at promotion? My advice is to start out trying to make juice that you and your friends/family like, see if a wider circle likes it, and go from there. As a side note here, if you reside in the United States, as the situation sits now it is nearly impossible to introduce new e-liquid on to the market due to overwhelmingly expensive fees and strict regulations on all tobacco products.
I'm concerned that the government may sieze the means to acquire Nicotine or flavorings!
It seems more likely that nic may become more expensive as it becomes more regulated. A bigger concern might be the unavailability of your favorite juice provider(s) due to increased compliance costs. Fortunately, nic base is relatively inexpensive and will last in brown glass in the freezer for several years at the very least, and you don't use all that much. Keep an eye out for nic sales from vendors who aren't terrible and take a shot. Another side note here; if you're in the USA the FDA is attempting to regulate flavored tobacco products and flavored e-liquid unfortunately falls into this category. It seems unlikely that the multiuse flavorings that we use will be outright banned, but prices or taxes on them may very well increase.
It Sounds Fun
It is. This may be the best reason of all.
What Are the Downsides of DIY?
There are a few. It's easy for an experienced mixer to say, "Oh there are no downsides." It's possible that they were a natural when they started, but maybe they forgot how terrible they were when they started.
DIY Requires Handling Hazardous Chemicals
Nicotine is toxic. Never forget that. I think to myself, "Nicotine is toxic" the same way I think, "Every gun is loaded." Yes, you might spill some on you and just get a head rush for a while, or no ill effects. Why do you even need gloves? You never spill anything. Well, that's true, until you do. Safety equipment is not there to keep you from having to pay attention; it's there to save your ass when something unexpected goes wrong. It will also kill children and pets in much lighter concentrations. It will also kill idiot roommates who don't know what the hell they're taking out of the freezer late at night when they're snooping around for your vodka bottles. If any of this makes you uncomfortable, you might think twice about handling high concentration nicotine in your household.
DIY = Lots of New Stuff
Bottles. Flavors. Test vials. Liter or gallon jugs of propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin. You should ideally have a separate room where you work on this, or at least a toolbench, lab bench, or even just a rack of trays to hold all of the equipment that you're going to be spending your money on, if only to keep yourself from tripping over things.
DIY Requires Patience
If you think waiting two weeks for your bottle of liquid to steep is annoying, wait until you have twenty-something tester bottles of juice sitting in a dark box somewhere. If you don't mind the wait, you might not have this problem, but generally people who DIY tend to spend a lot of time dialing in flavors and experimenting. It's one of the reasons we do it in the first place.
TLDR?
Bottom line is DIY may or may not be for you. If you're in a living situation where nic base would be dangerous to keep around, like a home with small children, it may be difficult to find a safe place to work, make sure to keep nicotine and other chemicals out of reach of children and pets. Better yet utilize a locking cabinet and store all nicotine and e-liquids locked up.
However, for those of us who want to know what goes into our juice, and those with an eye toward experimental flavor combinations, this may be right for you. You can save up for the initial investment, start keeping careful records, and even if you don't create a recipe that is out of this world, you will have the satisfaction of vaping something you created, something you can tweak to your liking, something that's better than most of the commercial stuff on the market. And even if it's only "as good," it costs you a tiny fraction of what it would in a store, and to me that automatically makes it better."
Do you think you could highlight your edits in bold for the lazy ones like me? :)
To be honest I can't. I just took out the dated parts and some of the humor because I'm incredibly unfunny and added some parts about modern bans and regulations in the US. I edited so many little parts and reworded sentences for clarity I couldn't pick out all of the edited parts.
Does it remain true that the majority of ingredients that most companies use come from FW, Cap, and TPA? I remember a comment from Gremlin saying that which really hyped me up for diy when I was researching and pondering if I should dive in. I love strawberry creams but 99% of the ones sitting on store shelves taste pretty much the same. Now that I diy, I can make a strawberry cream using JF's, FA's, and INW's strawberries and have a completely different experience while enjoying the same profile. That to me is huge.
Still relevant in my opinion, might need to revise one heading to - De Gubmint Takin Way Our Nic & Flavas!
Had a few laughs with the way it was written, anyone have the recipe to Koolada Durian Blast? Sounds amazing.
>Nobody Makes the Flavor I Want
>Might not be true; it might be more accurate to say, "Nobody makes the flavor I want at less than 4 gold bricks per ml." There are some flavors that are notoriously difficult to mix, or nigh-impossible. DIY is for you, and if you succeed, you might be able to sell your creation. Maybe.
Ok... this probably should get a bit of a rewrite.
A big part of my motivation for getting into DIY was just how difficult it is for me to find juices I'm even willing to try, let alone like vaping for any length of time. Now, it's true that if I lived in murica, I'd probably have a lot more commercial juices to choose from, and there'd probably be some niche juice makers mixing cocktail juices and such... but then there'd still be the hit or miss "is it any good?" problem... and personally I'd rather toss the odd test batch of something new I made for pennies per ml than buying a 30ml of some juice that I can't vape even half of the bottle... so basically "It's too costly and/or time consuming to find a juice I'd like."
I'm afraid to touch this as it has just the light-hearted tone and entertainment value an article like this needs. It's way too long, but abbreviating it kills the good reading, leaving only the dry facts. Some light updating to reflect the present day will suffice, in my opinion.
>It's not insane at all. I happen to be an excellent cook. I can taste any dish and tell you what spices and balance were used. I started making juice about a year ago and have been honing my skills. DIY is heavy on innovation. I see people fooling around with flavorings trying to pin down their favorite juice. Well it's easy!!! As far as development goes, you can vape these juices immediately and you will be shocked to find that it is near perfect. I give it a hot water bath in an open beaker at 125 degrees for 2 1/2 hours and let it cool before bottling it.
/u/INTERLINKED all it needs now is some spicy meatballs
DIY's very own copypasta. Outstanding.
I've spent around $250 on 15 or so more flavourings, nic and pg/vg. Really saves money when a 3mg 60ml store bought is around $25 here. So you really save alot over time.
Only downside is that the max nic juice i can buy is 18mg/ml in 10ml bottles so that brings up costs a bit.
These regulations are dumb, nic is ten times more expensive in the EU since the TPD, not even exaggerating. But you can still order higher concentrations if you're willing to gamble with customs.
Yeah it's really dumb, max tank capacity allowed is only 2ml aswell. Even that is a joke because you can buy bigger glass and upgrade to 5-7ml
Agreed the stupid regs are dumber than dumb, but I am thankful we can still vape and it’s not illegal like some places.. like Thailand and I wouldn’t consider it a third world country where they might not have certain liberties and freedoms our countries do so it might b more easy to understand, but still I don’t really I think it’s bullshit 😡, and I won’t be visiting Thailand anytime soon,pfft!
I liked the approach some atty makers used: TPD-spec coils. With the TPD coil preinstalled, the tank capacity is 2ml, with the normal coil the capacity is 5ml.
For a truly sick approach... Canada classified all tanks/RTAs as "ejuice containers" and thus required to be childproof. It's like they really don't want vaping to exist.
Probably take out the part about starting a commercial juice line. Not legally happening.
Your Murica-Centrism is showing.
Still something should be said about how this is not happening legally in Murica and a bunch of other places, or like you said, just take it out and don't even go there with people just reading for the first time about why they might want to DIY juice.
Shit, sometimes I forget there are poor souls in the world who don’t get to enjoy that pure American freedom. So yeah, either mention that in the US it isn’t happening, or we just take it out because if they really want to start something out of it, they’ll probably need to start somewhere besides a DIY subreddit, which is mainly focused on how to make eliquid, not sell it.
I DIY because by law nicotine cannot be sold in a B&M where I live. but my government allows the sale of ecigs with nic you can read a little more about it here. I love this sub but you guys are too strict. I know you're trying to protect the sub from deletion and all that but sometimes I'm afraid to post here. I'm glad u/ediblemalfunction is trying to change things. I need this sub, it's the main reason I DIY. I never thought it was possible but the users here convinced me. I'm vaping a dragon fruit, peach, and vanilla custard right fucking now at an astounding cost savings compared to importing commercial juices from the USA
u/skiddlzninja birthed the revolution. I just fired the first shot
the shot heard around the world?
sorry, I'm assuming you were american. that quote is usually taught in american history I think
>and even if you don't create a recipe that is out of this world, you will have the satisfaction of vaping something you created, something you can tweak to your liking, something that's better than most of the commercial stuff on the market. And even if it's only "as good," it costs you a tiny fraction of what it would in a store, and to me that automatically makes it better."
I'd like to add, that doing DIY is somewhat like owning a 3D printer. You may find that you become a recipe making genius, but if not there's a whole world of recipes out there that other people have created. Alltheflavors (and Eliquidrecipes, i'm sure, but I don't use it) is such an amazing resource.
I do make my own recipes, but nowhere near as frequently as I mix up something that catches my eye from another mixer.