I read in another subreddit, https://www.reddit.com/r/vapeheads/wiki/juice-diy-introduction, that PDO, specifically Nature Silk, could be used as a substitute for PG. The guide says "Propylene Glycol can be replaced with 1,3-propanediol / Nature Silk. It's an all-natural alternative that is a more effective flavor carrier than PG."
So I bought some Nature Silk/PDO, which is MUCH more expensive than PG. I recently got around to trying it. I decided to do a taste test. I made 3 bottles of my ADV. Bottle A was made w/ PG, Bottle B was 50/50 PG/PDO, and Bottle C was PDO. The Nicotine, VG, flavoring and PG/PDO amounts were the same in each bottle. After steeping, I started with Bottle B. OMG, it was HORRIBLE. I didn't bother trying Bottle C, considering how awful Bottle B was.
After that, I went back to the site where I purchased the Nature Silk and I looked at the MSDS. http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/files/NatureSilk%20MSDS.pdf. Admittedly, I've never looked at PG's MSDS, but this jumped out at me. "Avoid breathing vapors or mist." That pretty much rules out vaping, doesn't it?
Am I overreacting? As I said, I've never seen the MSDS for PG. There may very well be a similar item on it. I just know that in a taste test, PDO failed miserably.
I'd like to point out that I have zero problems with PG. It's VG that's the problem. High VG (> 40VG) e-liquids have a slightly syrupy taste with no flavor. I'm an anomaly in the vaping world. That's why I was so excited to hear there was something that might carry flavor even better than PG. I don't get excessive TH with PG, but I was hoping that I might be able to increase the amount of VG in my e-liquids with the better flavor-carrying ability of PDO and possibly decrease the TH a bit.
Oh well, I tried. I know there's another manufacturer that makes PDO, but I'm hesitant to try PDO again. Nature Silk is sold to be used to make moisturizers and body creams. I don't know if the other PDO would be any different. I mean, 1,3-Propanediol from one company should be the same as another company's, right?
If there's anybody that has had personal experience with PDO, good or bad, please let me know.
What was horrible about it?
In my limited experimentation with it (a few single flavor tests and recipes I'm familiar with) I didn't perceive much of a difference at all. The only reason I stopped messing around with it is because I don't have any sensitivity to PG and PDO is expensive.
It was completely un-vapeable. I tried to vape it a couple of times, both times I ended up hacking and coughing. Considering that was the bottle that had equal amounts of PG and PDO, I didn't even bother trying the one that made with just PDO.
What ratio of PDO did you use in your juice? Maybe I'll try again, but with something like a 25/75 mix of PDO/PG. I have an almost full bottle of PDO still. I have no intention of making moisturizers or whatever else the stuff the site says it can be used to make.
What do you think went wrong with my experiment, since you never encountered any issues?
I didn't have any problem with it being harsh. If anything, it kind of dulled the top notes that would normally come across harshly, but not by much.
I replaced the PG 1:1 with PDO in my experiments and went as high as 50% with the single flavor tests. My PDO is/was from LiquidLabs but they're not in business anymore. What site did you get yours from?
PDO (aka 1,3 propanediol) is totally good as a replacement for PG. Now, the question is whether what you had was pure PDO. I doubt it was. And then there's the issue of how it was stored and handled. Any of PG, PDO or PEG can absorb odors and tastes from environmental contaminants that are present... and it's fairly common for such to occur when the intended end users aren't vapers.
I've used PDO and PEG400 in place of PG in mixes. Mostly because once I get out of max VG mixes I find the discomfort caused by PG annoying... and I try to mix tobacco flavors with 70VG or less. I've never had off taste from them.
The site I bought it from lists it as 1,3-Propanediol and has an MSDS for 1,3-Propanediol. The site that I referenced suggested Nature Silk specifically as a source for PDO. So, I've always assumed I bought 1,3-Propanediol. But after reading these comments, I'm wondering what I bought.
It was shipped to me in an amber glass bottle. I kept it in the freezer with the original seal around the cap until I was ready to use it. I don't see how it could have absorbed odors or tastes while stored this way. Or were you saying that it could've gotten tainted pre-shipping? On first read, your phrasing makes it sound like I somehow contaminated the PDO.
It would great to find out that the product I bought was something other than 1,3-Propanediol, but that's what's on the label. Your argument that it was stored or handled improperly before I received it sounds more and more likely. Would I be able to tell if there were something was wrong with it, such as its color, taste, or odor?
I've no experience with PEG400. Can it be used as a direct substitute for PG? How are its flavor-carrying properties and what is its TH like? As I said in my original post, I don't have any problems with PG. If I could find a PG-substitute with better flavor-carrying abilities, I would be able to reduce the level of PG-substitute in my juice. That way I'd get the same, or more, flavor in my juice and reduce the TH a little.
Where did you obtain your PDO? I remember seeing it sold somewhere else, but I can't remember the vendor. I do recall that they only sold vape products. It seems far less likely that a company that only sells vape products would improperly handle/store their products versus a company that sells items for aromatherapy and body creams.
I meant the handling and storage on the vendor end were to blame (probably). Although it may also have been intentionally adulterated to make it even bether for making cosmetics with... I sourced my PDO from diy-ejuice.com and (other than other issues dealing with them) was satisfied by the product. I sourced PEG400 elsewhere. Don't remember precisely, but it was also a vaping site. Again no problems. And nit her PDO or PEG400 irritate the throat like PG does. Granted, I'd never try using 50+% PG and PG alternative (there's the cost issue, and no point with modern equipment... and I want the VG sweetness) so maybe enough of it could irritate if you like that...
So, neither PDO or PEG400 have the TH of PG. How are they for carrying flavor?
What do you mean there's no point to use 50+% PG alternative with modern equipment? The guide I read was suggesting a direct substitution of PDO for PG, but it didn't say anything about PDO/VG ratios.
I checked out the site where you got PDO. They're no longer selling it. I remember what the other site looked like where I saw PDO being sold, and that wasn't it. I'll have to look around some more.
It sounds more and more likely that I got bad PDO and will need to run another test before rendering a verdict.
Just so nobody thinks it's a typo, I really meant >40 VG. I vape 70/30 PG/VG. I threw out A LOT of ejuice before I discovered I have a really weird palate. Since I've been vaping for several years, I thought I should give high VG another try. I vaped 60 VG ejuice. All I could taste was syrup that was slightly sweet and without flavor.
That's one of the many reasons I got into DIY. It's increasingly difficult to find manufacturer's that make 70/30 PG/VG. Or at least ones that make flavorful juice that's both quality and affordable.
That subreddit is one of the first I encountered when I first ventured into DIY. A Google search led me to it, rather than this one. I'm really glad I finally found my way here. It just took me awhile.
I have the same 'issues' with high VG, but 55vg/45pg is my sweet spot.
To me, 55VG is high VG. If the juice is really flavorful, I can taste 65/45 PG/VG. If the VG is any higher than that, it's all the same - syrup.
I am constantly baffled by the number of people that describe VG as "sweet." I must have some seriously screwy tastebuds because VG doesn't taste sweet to me at all.
Thankfully, I don't get a harsh TH from 70% PG. I am noticing increased flavor as my nic level decreases, though. When I started vaping I was at 18mg/ml, and I'm just moving into 6mg/ml. (Meanwhile, my neighbor is still at 24mg/ml and vaping essentially the same flavor as when he started 3 years ago).
i used pdo tons of times in my cbd juice. 55/45 pdo/vg literally no detectable difference to pg.
dont know whats wrong with your pdo or why you reacted that way. I feel like posts like this are a little misleading. there's nothing wrong with pdo as a replacement for pg. maybe you got bad pdo or from an unreliable source. I get mine from makingcosmetics and have never had a single issue.
only reason i stopped using it is because of what u/apexified said, its just more expensive
Based on the comments of vapers who've used PDO, I received a bottle that had been contaminated in some way.
In an earlier post, someone suggested the PDO was a lower grade, being bought from a site that sold products for cosmetics. You did the same and had no problem with it. So, if Cosmetic-grade versus Food or Pharmaceutical-grade isn't the issue, that leaves me to think of the original argument, that it was mishandled during packing/shipping.
I didn't mean for this post to be misleading. Long before I bought/used the PDO I had asked people if they'd used PDO and I got maybe 3 replies. I'm surprised by the number of posts in this thread. I can't recall how long ago I put up that first post. Perhaps it was more years ago than I realized.
>I mean, 1,3-Propanediol from one company should be the same as another company's, right?
Absolutely not. There are a few different grades when it comes to products like this, you've got your cosmetics grade which is only graded for use externally (likely what you've bought there), then there's food grade, then the highest is pharmaceutical grade. For vaping you ideally want pharma grade as it's not going to be adulterated with anything else.
> Admittedly, I've never looked at PG's MSDS, but this jumped out at me. "Avoid breathing vapors or mist." That pretty much rules out vaping, doesn't it?
I mean... That's kinda relevant when you're comparing the two. Easy to find on google:
>Do not ingest. Do not breathe gas/fumes/ vapor/spray. Wear suitable protective clothing.
I can't find it on the msds, what section?
I admitted that I'd never looked up PG's MSDS. I'm not surprised it says basically the same thing. It is fairly ridiculous that it does, however. PG has been used for decades in many Nebulizers for asthmatics. That's a whole lot of people breathing in PG with no ill effect.
Thanks for taking the time to look up PG's MSDS. It just shows that you can't believe everything you read, on the internet or elsewhere. :(
Try it again later. My limited tests showed lots of improvement with age.
Ive thought i just suck at mixing allbut this time, i dont seem to find anything that tastes good no matter what ratios or percent of flavors i choose. They smell great but i dont taste much.
I have about 60 different flavors from TPA, fw, bull city, capella either i get sweet or bland...
I'm not sure what this has to do with PDO, but are you following recipes when you mix, or just adding flavors drop by drop?
Have you checked out the Beginner's Thread for recommended flavors to start off with? If you go to http://e-liquid-recipes.com and enter all the flavors you've got, you can do a search for recipes you can make.
What is the total % of flavor(s) in a liquid that you mix?
I actively use that site and i mix by the drop not by weight.. I made about 10-20 of the top recipes.
Have you tried a range of PG/VG ratios? It wasn't until I tried a full range at a local vape shop that I discovered I couldn't taste ejuice that was high VG. The person started at Max VG and moved in 10% increments until at 70/30 PG/VG I finally could taste the flavor of the ejuice. I can't believe how much ejuice I'd either thrown out or given away before then.
How do things taste when you buy ejuice? Do they "smell great... but don't taste much" like the stuff you've been making?
If so, have you tried troubleshooting this in a DIY thread?
As someone with a weird palate, keep me updated. It's a PITA to find places that make high PG juices that aren't either complete crap or out of my price range. Enter DIY, where I'm like a kid in a candy store when I look at flavors. I want 'em all! :D
PG is safe for inhalation. It's the main component of nebulizers.
Not all nebulizers, but some.
One of the many arguments of the uninformed anti-vaping horde is that eliquid contains Anti-Freeze. While PG is an alternative to ethylene glycol, it's hardly the same thing. And as you've pointed out, it's in Nebulizers. As asthmatics have been inhaling the stuff for decades, I think vapers are gonna be fine. ;)