From Flavorah’s own FAQ:
> #### Why does Flavorah cost so much? > > “Concentration level. Flavorah is more concentrated than other flavorings that were used in the past because it is made for vapor. We do not dilute our flavors with sweeteners, colors, and preservatives that are found in off the shelf multipurpose flavorings. With our high concentration level, you will actually have more flavoring at your fingertips per dollar (or pound, or euro) than with a multi-purpose flavoring. This high concentration also unlocks max VG recipes that are unattainable with typical multi use flavorings.”
And here in the subreddit the question is the same but phrased a little differently like “Why is Flavorah so Fucking Expensive?” or “Are the Flavorah Prices Worth It?” and similar but more specifically “Why is Red Burley from FLV So Damn Expensive?”
The cost of a 15ml bottle ranges from $5.49 - $17.49. The difference, for example, between TFA/CAP and FA/FLV is MAP: Minimum Advertised Price. Both Flavour Art and Flavorah require MAP for resellers while TFA/CAP (and most others) allow resellers to buy large wholesale quantities at steep discounts and determine their own pricing.
For a lot of people that answers the question. The fact is, Flavorah is expensive, but is it too expensive?
How they stack up (per 15ml)
Mfg | Price ---|--- Medicine Flower | $22.00 Bakers Flavors | $11.99 Flavor Monks | $11.31 German Flavors | $7.50 Flavorah | $5.49 Molinberry | $5.25 Euro Flavors | $4.94 Super Concentrates | $4.49 Vape Train | $4.49 Hangsen | $4.43 Inawera | $4.40 Real | $3.44 Flavourart | $3.38 Wonder Flavors | $2.99 Capella | $2.88 LorAnn | $2.63 Flavor West | $2.24 TFA | $1.94
The price of the bottle really only tells one part of the story, though. Another important aspect, even when being frugal, is how far that flavor will go.
When looking at the average percentage used across all of CAP, TFA, FA and FLV
Mfg | Avg % ---|--- CAP | 2.96% TFA | 2.86% FA | 1.86% FLV | 1.29%
Extrapolating from that to how much it would cost in 30ml
Mfg | Price per 30ml ---|--- CAP | $0.17 FLV | $0.14 FA | $0.13 TFA | $0.11
This puts Flavorah closer in line with other flavor companies. But of course, relying on averages and coming to conclusions based on them ignores a few things that would otherwise factor in--such as the fact that the more CAP and TFA you purchase, the cheaper the per ml cost is. And there’s also the fact that the majority of CAP and TFA are used considerably higher than the average while FA and FLV are rarely much higher than the average while often being used considerably lower.
The most expensive flavors are the ones you have but don’t use, which begs the question...
How often are they used?
Last week I talked about the top 100 flavors on ATF and of those, only 3 were Flavorah. Over on ELR, where there are an order of magnitude more recipes, Flavorah doesn’t even break into the top 100 flavors--in fact, you have to go all the way to #172 before you find 1 and the next one at #212, then #232, etc
This doesn’t necessarily mean they’re used less frequently because of the price, it just means that if you primarily buy flavors to make other people's recipes, they won’t be AS necessary in your arsenal. But on the other hand, 17 of the 50 most highly rated recipes on ATF use at least 1 Flavorah flavor.
Innovation & Uniqueness
Some flavors can’t be subbed (or shouldn’t be) because either they’re the best representation the mixer could find or because they contain some other element vital to the mixers creation. We can’t consider that to be fact, just conjecture based on that mixers subjective preference but we can look at the description as rhetoric and decide whether it convinces us.
Flavorah has a lot of flavors that don’t have 1:1 replacement and sometimes don’t even have a similar counterpart that exists in the market. Things like Lovage Root, Guanabana, and Yakima Hops just to name a few, are completely unique and whether you love them or hate them, there’s no subbing them.
Cheat Mode Tobacco Flavors
> “I think FLV tobaccos are worth it regardless (especially Cured and Burley). But if you're impatient at all, then they're definitely worth it. I don't know how FLV has managed to create such delicious tobaccos that don't need to steep any longer than whatever flavors you're mixing them with might need. Highly recommend them.” /u/ID10-T
One of the most frustrating aspects of working with tobacco flavors is trying to muster up the patience to see how things turn out. With most of Flavorah’s tobaccos you’re looking at somewhere between a shake and week of steeping before it’s good to go. I’m no tobacco-head but in the years of mixing up countless tobaccos now and again, I haven’t found any that get you solid results without the wait until I started experimenting with Flavorah.
Final Thoughts (in lieu of a definitive answer)
You want to know if it’s worth it just check out how it’s used in recipes and if those recipes make your mouth water or at least pique your interest. Does the creator describe the role of a flavor as being vital? Don’t buy any flavors on a whim but definitely do some research on Flavorah that might interest you--luckily almost all of Flavorah’s line (187 flavors, 174 reviews) have been reviewed and can be found in the Flavor Review Wiki.
As always I tried my best to be as unbiased as possible but in the end, I think Flavorah makes some of the best flavors and is run by some really cool people who actual make an effort to cater to the DIY community.
Feel free to post some FLV-centric recipes as the Flavorah Recipe Thread is close to being 3 years old.
Which FLV flavors do you think are or are not worth the investment?
For reference: Spreadsheet of all Flavorah flavors, prices, reviews and average used percentages (as well as their recommended usage)
This list is getting too long, I need to make a wiki for it...
Previous FAQ Friday topics that may be of interest:
It was a good read, and thank you for putting that together.
The real answer for you is that, like every other brand, taste is subjective. If (Insert Flavor) by Flavorah tastes great to you, then it is worth the money.
I DIY to save money, but I also want the best juice made possible by my wallet.
Thank you and you're welcome.
I agree, completely, about the subjectivity of flavors. Subjectivity in general is one of the things that make putting these posts together (more) difficult. On the one hand it would be useless if I didn't at least try to answer the FAQ and on the other, my answer is only one of many possible answers.
I DIY as a hobby, so I tend to overlook a lot of the costs involved, which is why I actually didn't know the answer to this Q until I started researching ;)
I can try to offer some additional insight. I smoked for 10 to 12 years, then switched to smokeless tobacco when my first child was on the way. 10 years later, Iast year, I was spending $4 per day on snuff. (2 cans of cheap snuff) When I started vaping, B&M prices on juice were roughly 7.50 per day for "premium" or 5 per house juice.
I really couldnt keep that up. Most local house juice is nasty, at least to me. The one I did like was an hour drive round trip to get. So it really wasnt cheaper.
I looked up some recipes and placed an order. No looking back. I estimate vaping costs me about 30 cents per day now.
I have bought some flavors I dont like, and made some recipes I didnt like....but overall I estimate I have saved well over 1,000 dollars in 6 months. I make juice for others in my household, so that cost is included.
For someone that has to be careful with a budget, DIY can truly be make or break. Without this community and the knowledge shared here, I honestly believe I could not have continued vaping. Especially after 1 or 2 bricked devices setting me back.
Edited for spelling
>If (Insert Flavor) by Flavorah tastes great to you, then it is worth the money.
I kind of disagree with this sentiment. Just because something is fantastic doesn't mean its also worth the money. There are plenty of things that I love or think taste amazing that are no where near worth the price being charged which is why I rarely buy them if I buy them at all. JMHO
Must haves- Mango, Cinnamon Crunch, Yakima Hops, Wild Melon, Cream, Root Beer, Red Burley, Cured Tobacco, Kentucky Blend, Cream and Cookies, Greek Yogurt
Avoid like the plague- Crunch Cereal, Sweet Dough, Crunch Cereal, Rhubarb, Crunch Cereal, Donuts, Crunch Cereal, Strawberry Smash
Cinnamon Crunch is so underrated - Nice to see you calling it a must-have. Maybe it doesn't get purchased and used as often as it should because it has "FLV" and "Crunch" in the name and the association with "FLV Crunch Cereal" is just such a huge turnoff?
How did you manage to leave PINK GUAVA off of the list of must haves, though?
Boi.
Cuz it's not really useable in a recipe.
It's not useable in Fiestas & Fiascos by /u/concreteriver or Guava-Lime Candy by /u/notcharlesmansion (may he and INW Lime rest in peace)?
.25% Pink Guava
.5% Elderflower
1% Yakima Hops
[not my recipe, but saw it recently.]
My collection of FLV is limited to: lovage root, yakima hops, basil, rich cinnamon, cranberry, red burley, cured tobacco, sweet coconut, Connecticut Shade, and creme de menthe. If I was making a top 10, I'd trade the Cured for Tatanka, and Cranberry for Milk Chocolate. Although I'd just make a top 11 and keep Cranberry.
Love how much you've always hated that flavor "a full flavor profile of being waterboarded with dirty dishwater" was my favorite description you gave.
I tried to make a personal (highly subjective) "FLV Top Ten" list for you and I could not do it. There are too many great flavors. Here's an FLV Top 20 in my book, all of them must-haves:
- Mango
- Pink Guava
- Yakima Hops
- Cream
- Rich Cinnamon
- Cinnamon Crunch
- Apple Filling
- Bourbon
- Coconut
- Sweet Coconut
- Red Burley
- Cured Tobacco
- Kentucky Blend
- Native Tobacco
- Root Beer
- Peach
- Grape
- Boysenberry
- Wild Melon
- Vanilla Pudding
Even that was hard to make, because it meant leaving off great flavors like Vanilla Custard, Watermelon, Cantaloupe (best in class!), Bubble Gum, Eggnog, Apple Cider (they really do apples well!), Apple Pop, Butterscotch, Basil, Chocolate Deutsche, Cranberry, Guanabana, Soursop, Lemonade, Marshmallow, Whipped Cream, Peach Gummy... and more.
But when FLV is bad, they are very very bad:
WHY, FLV, WHY?
How are you even considering yourselves a serious flavor company while continuing to offer these for sale to human beings? It has to be in violation of something, Geneva Conventions or whatever.
- Crunch Cereal - the worst of the worst. Mushroom not-crunch.
- And Tricks Cereal is like Crunch Cereal Junior. Mushroom not-crunch with fruit!
- Waffle - I think I have this one figured out. It's not actually supposed to taste like a waffle. It's a portmanteau of WTF and Awful. When you squash those together and say it fast, it sounds kind of like "Waffle." "WTFawful, WTawful, Waffle." It's pretty clever, really, except for that part where no one wants a WTF Awful flavor.
- Rainier Cherry - Plastic, medicine, bottom shelf rum
- Nectarine - See Rainier Cherry.
- Pear - Mmmm regurgitated pear. Lovely.
- Pumpkin Bread - yuck
- Donuts - yuck with a side of yuck
- Rhubarb - an entire garden of yuck
- Sun Cookie - just, why?
With dishonorable mentions for everything that tastes like maple that shouldn't (Cookie, others), as well as coffee (Irish Cream, Biscotti) and coconut (Pound Cake) flavors where they don't belong, and Blueberry Muffin missing the actual muffin until Lemba's Bread came out. Also for Lemba's Bread not tasting elfin enough.
Interesting that you don't like crunch cereal and Trix. I find both of those an accurate representation of the cereal they are named after. I use crunch with some rich cinnamon, a little bit of milk and honey, and some cream and it comes out great.
Also, the chocolate Deutsche recipe someone posted (botboy maybe?) of just Deutsche and Trix is great. I use it fairly regularly.
Neither of those flavors taste like mushrooms to you at all?
No? I mean I've never gone into it specifically looking for mushroominess, but generally no. I don't remember if either was included in my old posts on FLV flavor thoughts, but I'll see if I can dig them up. I may be mistaking cinnamon crunch with crunch cereal?
Edit: Yep I confused Cinnamon crunch for Crunch cereal. I still stand by Trix though. Also cinnamon crunch is awesome and totally underrated.
I'm the same. I get no mushroom from either of these, and I find these fairly accurate as well. I have mixed my "Trix" cereal for myself, and about 8 people around me and none of them have ever said they get an off note. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that I get none, and that's off the shake and steeping. I'm glad I don't, because I love their Tricks flavor so much.
Wait... biscotti aren't supposed to taste like coffee? Are they supposed to be tasteless?
And cookies aren't supposed to taste like maple?
And when were you last in Rivendell?
Yes, they're pretty much tasteless until you dip them in coffee. You could find other uses for them, though, if FLV didn't decide to make that choice for you.
Cookies aren't supposed taste like maple unless they're maple cookies, again, that's one type of cookie. FLV is against individual freedom apparently. All Biscottis are coffee soaked, all cookies are maple, the only use for Irish Cream is putting in coffee. You must assimilate.
I... ok you got me on that last one.
> Cookies aren't supposed taste like maple unless they're maple cookies, again, that's one type of cookie.
Chocolate chip is a type of cookie. Chocolate covered graham cracker is a type of cookie. Peanut butter chocolate chunk is the best type of cookie. Oatmeal chocolate chip is a close runner up type of cookie. Ginger snap is a kind of cookie. Sugar cookies are almost the shittiest type of cookie ever. Molasses cookies are a type of cookie. Hell, biscotti are sorta a type of cookie. Practically none of these are much like each other. WTF kind of cookie do you expect? As long as it's some type of cookie, I'd say the name is accurate.
I fully agree with that list and with the fact that it needs to be longer. At the same time I hope they make more flavors that you hate because it's incredibly entertaining when you describe them.
I hate the Nectarine too.. Literally made me flinch first time I vaped it. Even remixed it to make sure I didn't screw something up. Still awful. I don't like Sun Cookie because I get a anise note. If it weren't for that, I think I'd like it. It reminds me of Nonna's Cake which I hate.
Prailines was the one that tastes like mushrooms to me. I thought my tongue was broken or my brain until I read several other people got the same note. Weird.
Really enjoy Milk & Honey, Candy Roll, Cotton Candy, Pumpkin Spice, Blood Orange, Frosting, Maple Bar, Milk chocolate, and love Red Apple
Hey, I've been searching for someone using FLV Blood Orange and you're the first person to admit it!
Can you share what you do with it? I got it and am in the process of steeping a standalone for exploration but what do you pair it with? What works? I'm not that experienced, would love some good ideas.
>Which FLV flavors do you think are or are not worth the investment?
Alpine Strawberry is definitely not worth it. (Actually, any strawberry, peach/nectarine/mango/etc, or vanilla are definitely not worth it, but most aren't as horrendously overpriced as that one.)
Rich Cinnamon is sorta worth it. I could probably get by on Cinnamon Ceylon, but then there's the whole issue of supporting the assholes from FANA.
Red Burley is definitely worth it. If I had to trade a fingertip to keep using it, I'd check if it mattered which finger but I'd probably go for it.
> I could probably get by on Cinnamon Ceylon, but then there's the whole issue of
... it tasting like you had some kind of curry with cinnamon in it, extracted the cinnamon, but couldn't quite get rid of the all of the curry essence.
>We do not dilute our flavors with sweeteners, colors, and preservatives that are found in off the shelf multipurpose flavorings.
Coolio but that doesn't mean they don't dilute with PG so why not dilute to a reasonable level and then charge a decent price for it. IMO you shouldn't have to take something like their cinnamon, dilute it down yourself, and then use the diluted mix at a low % ending up with a ton of flavoring(10+ times the amount you ordered) and having to pay 15 for it instead of just selling a diluted version for the same price point as everyone else.
There are a few flavorings I have from FLV and I enjoy them but, yes, I do find them too expensive and would buy many more if they diluted to a normal range and cost a normal price.
With some of these FLV concentrates your 10ml bottle is essentially a 100ml than you use at 1-2%. What other company would you buy 100+mls of a single flavor from without trying it? especially since we know there is a shelf life with concentrates so that very small bottle you paid $15 for that is enough for 100s of 100ml batches is likely going bad long before you use it all.
Yep. I get that question a lot and I get it... but the thing is, especially with me being super picky, I am willing to pay extra to buy FLV because I know more than likely I will like it. There are only maybe 2 flavors of theirs that I hate... which is rare for me. And if you buy direct, most times they add in extra flavors (full size) too
My Top ones: Candy Roll, Eisai Tea, Cream, Native Tobacco, Wild Melon, Sugar Orchid, Vanilla Custard or Pudding
I noticed this mixing up abuela. So few percentages, but really flavorful. So hard to get them here tho, and even chefs doesn't have the full flavorah line.
Strongest flavor ever - TFA has that distinction. Death by Cinnamon is the most insanely overconcentrated flavoring ever. A large number of FA and INW flavors I use tend to be at least as concentrated as the FLV flavors I use most. FLV just has a policy of price gouging (ie MAP).
Still, they do have some really good flavors.
Have you ever tried FLV Rich Cinnamon?
Yep.
As a matter of fact, I posted this recipe.
Death by Cinnamon = cinnamon spice?.
btw, i nominate tfa caramel cappuccino as a challenger to that title.
I have some highly recommended Flavorah flavors but i'm not a big fan and "Yes" i find them to be grossly overpriced even with the stronger percentage factor .
You got to expect at least one person who goes against the grain and more often than not i usually end up with a different opinion than most .
And no , i don't care whatsoever about downvotes, i always give my honest opinion and downvotes come with the territory lol.
OP deserves a lot of credit with the effort and time needed to put all this together though so props on that.
FLV is only pricy when you wanna try new stuff, if you know what you like they'll last you a while. On the other hand Capella is really expensive for how diluted it is.
Btw thank you, and everyone involved, for making FAQ Friday a thing, it's always a good read and full of information.
I agree with this. For the price, flv is a pretty good buy considering a lot of their stuff are really concentrated or cut through mixes really well so you don't have to use much. CAP on the other hand seems very diluted and gets blanketed really easily yet they charge more than other budget flavorings for products you tend to have to use at pretty high percentages.
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the good so far: peach , mango , lime, sweet coconut, pink guava
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the ok so far : cream (not bad just there are better options)
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The bad : trix cereal just gross til it has sat for at least half a year then it takes an odd "grape/soggy bread" and caramel flavor
Does anyone buy into the theory that Flavorah is best at 1% and under? I've been told I'm over flavoring using FLV at 2-3%. The line is always the same. "Try using FLV at 1% and under. You will have better results." I've tried it and I just taste less.
The Homeopathic Approach? I think you’re talking about someone with Blue in their name. Less can be more, if more causes muting but things like 3 drops per 30ml are reserved for super tasters—and those people are rare. There are plenty of FLV that can be used <1% but blanket statements about the whole line being optimal that low are questionable at best.