So good ol' Reddit has changed the game once again.
This is the official discussion thread for the impact this rule change will have on this subreddit.
I'm willing to throw resources at helping migrate and giving the group a home if it comes to that, I can extend All The Flavors to support whatever the community wants to do, in theory.
Thank you. You are an incredible asset to this community.
I think it would be wise to start migrating the flavor reviews in the wiki over to the notes section on ATF. That's an invaluable resource that, clearly, be deleted without warning.
I haven't seen anyone add any notes yet to it. Does that work similar to ELR's note section?
EDIT: Quit buying Reddit gold; go buy a Alltheflavors subscription instead or donate $5. It's ironic to give Reddit money for a comment about trying to export information from Reddit because they could ban the sub.
OK, I'll work out an automated exporter now, but I won't go live with the data until people come to a consensus that it's ok.
I think just something like phpbb to run a forum (and either a link or mirror of the flavor wiki) would cover most of what reddit does. I'm pretty sure phpbb include private messaging...
I've got a forum - it may take some effort to get it up to snuff to support the community, though.
So 4/5 days later...is this the consensus? ATF is the backup via a new forum feature and flavor reviews in the notes section?
Personally, fuck Reddit. I already spend my money on an ATF sub (thank you for an awesome product) but even if it's somewhere else my gun toting, ecig puffing, homebrew drinking ass now hates supporting Reddit with even 1 click.
I think we should remove all nicotine vendors from the sidebar immediately and draft new rules about facilitating nicotine sales accordingly. Maybe after that, it will affect us no more than it affects /r/trees
https://www.reddit.com/r/trees/comments/868cpp/about_reddits_recent_content_policy_update/
But with reddit admins, assuming the worst isn't at all an unreasonable thing to do. They're straight up fucking retarded. This could well be the end.
https://www.reddit.com/r/opiates/comments/864brm/reddit_content_policy_update/
They didn't reach out to us. Does that mean we're not in danger of being part of the next wave of bannings like the one that happened yesterday? Or that they haven't decided whether we should be part of the next wave of bannings or not yet?
Ok. well this has lit a fire under my ass. I will be working on my script that scrapes this sub for "Flavor Review" tags. It will pull the body out and save them to a text file locally. If I can get that complete in a timely manner, I can back them up so hopefully we can keep that work if anything were to happen.
I'll love you forever if you do the same thing for FOTW tags. But first Flavor Review. Priorities.
Some monthly recipe thread tags would be nice too. Maybe some recipe tags as well. Maybe just all the tags and even the posts without tags.
SOS. Save our Subreddit.
We might be ok. Kirkt is going to reach out to reddit admins and tell them we wish to comply and ask them what we have to do to be in compliance. But given the without-warning nuking of various subs and the nature of the changes forced on ECR, it is a scary time for those of us who care about /r/DIY_eJuice and see it as our online "home away from home."
Even if they say we're fine now with just a few modifications, nothing is stopping them from changing their mind and banning the sub out of the blue down the line, so backing up everything somehow needs to happen.
Thats the plan. Was going to get reviews first, then FOTW. I haven't delved into how many threads the script handles and how effectively, but the overall idea is to just get everything, and have the program save the text file into a different location based on the tag. Parse through and save it all. Keep us up to date though, but ya, I'll work on backing up our subreddit.
> They're straight up fucking retarded.
About sums it up.
They didn't warn any of the subs that got axed they were about to change the policy at all. Even if we adhere to this policy no telling when they will randomly change it again and axe another bunch of subs without warning. Maybe when the FDA cracks down more, Reddit will decide that these scary "Tobacco Products" have no place on their platform anymore.
From the announcement thread they don't even know what some of the subs are about and just axed them anyways, see /r/gundeals, which didn't violate any of the new rules. They had no idea how to answer about the /r/electronic_cigarette giveaways and just gave some stock robotic answer.
This sub is the only reason I keep coming to Reddit frequently anymore. Isolate enough of the communities and eventually people are going to jump ship.
It might also be a good idea to do a quick scan on sub posts and just delete them. I know sales from Wizardlabs, nude, Vaperstek, nic river, vapewild and maybe a couple I'm unaware of, are what will be the burden here.
This sub may not be on the radar yet, but it's better to take the precaution than them pull up some 7 month old posts and use that as their reasoning
I have work today, and then two small kids to take care of, and then possibly some more work. I know almost everyone has busy, nearly overwhelmingly busy, lives. But if anyone does have time and wants to do such a scan, and point out what needs to be deleted either here, or via PM, or even just by hitting the report button and choosing as the reason "Reddit has lost its mind" or something like that - I'll delete them to comply with what appears to be the new rule regarding nicotine.
This would be a big hit to me if this sub closed. I may not be the biggest contributer but visit this sub daily
I hope not, but it would stand to reason this would happen the week I finally decided to enter the world of DIY and just made my first order yesterday after a year and a half of vaping. Always late to the party.
I've been coming here nearly every day for 3 years. After finding this place, the rest of reddit barely exists. I would be fine with a similar platform and functionality that wasn't reddit.
Same... Back in the day when Message boards were the popular forum, there was one i used to frequent... then it was bought out by a big company who ran it to the ground... while everyone disbanded and tried to regroup on a new platform, it was never the same and everyone eventually lost contact...
Would the user base support a migration to another platform? FWIW, if this were to happen, count me out.
Can you imagine if the DIY_eJuice sub is killed overnight? Can you just... imagine? All those hours of work, the wiki, the god-damn P.O.S sidebar, just... gone?
As soon as I get up in the morning I'm going to start hoarding recipes. This is fucked.
if you know of a way to mass export reddit posts i'll dedicate some space to backing it all up. The recipes especially. I'm hoping concrete's got local copies.
i've got most of the wiki and sidebar.
No I can't. It's also why I would have no interest in helping migrate to another platform. Probably close to 100 hours just by me over the years in moderating. All the content... there's probably >500 flavor reviews!
I spend way too much time on Reddit anyway. If we go down, that will probably be the motivator to leave for good.
Could we possibly put a plan in place for what we would do if the sub does get nuked? Maybe specify another sub to get together and figure out how to move forward? It really make me scared thinking that is a possibility.
Also, what options are there for backing up a sub? I'd offer my help in any way I can. Is there a better way than copy pasting all the flavor reviews into a word document?
E: Ok, backing us has been discussed, didn't see that.
E2: Maybe all of the flavor reviews could be hosted on ATF? I would gladly pay more to make that happen.
Every single flavor on Alltheflavors has a notes section on it. I'm assuming all it would take is to copy and past flavor reviews from here to that section. The problem is that is a hefty undertaking.
I'm supportive, but there are ownership issues involved. Can you collect permission from the review posters? I'd be happy to help with a bulk migration if that were the case.
I assume we can no longer list sales and coupon codes, as that is "facilitating" a transaction.
Vendors that do not sell nicotine should be fine. Other than that, nothing is allowed. ECR mods were contacted and have been threatened with sub deletion if they do not comply.
This is Reddit Ragnarok
Maybe the coupon codes could be used only for products that do NOT contain nicotine, like concentrates and equipment? Would that be acceptable?
I would think vendors like Nicotine River, wizardlabs, nude and Vaperstek would be off limits, because they sell nicotine and typically none of the sales any of the diy vendors tend to do revolve around Reddit so I don't see them excluding nicotine on a 20% off sale weekend just to accommodate to a re-post to this sub.
Now vendors like Essential Depot, bullcity, gremlin, real flavors etc don't sell nicotine. I see no reason that their sales discounts can't be mentioned on the sub.
So... I just created /r/DIYCanada in a attempt to have a (hopefully) safe subreddit where some of the more useful info here can be backed up, just in case. I had been considering starting something similar for a while now, but this rule change made me think maybe it should be done sooner than later. Hopefully, the original reason I had planned the sub (a way to get those of us mixers who live in America's tuque to band together, more easily find info on vendors for this side of the border, maybe build a network to do our own mixers club kind of thing...) can also come to fruition. But also, getting as much of the most useful content here backed up somewhere with a generic enough name to not get flagged by admins as a verboten topic seems like a priority.
I'm looking for a few moderators, and looking to see if there's any interest in helping get a bunch of content reposted there. (I think it best if it's not done as cross posting, since that could link the two subs enough for the hammer to fall on both subs if the admins decide to shut this one down.)
Thoughts? Offers to help?
Great idea, but I’m not sure how this is going to help this situation. This isn’t an FDA thing. It’s a Reddit admin thing, and they will kill that sub too. We do need to back all this info up, though.
Is there a way to back everything up en masse? Maybe pasting to a word document at the same time as reposting to the other sub?
If you want to save a local copy, that means at least someone has it.
I'm a bit out of practice, but I'm thinking it shouldn't be too hard to create a GM script to strip out top-level posts from a page, and then save them. It depends on how reddit encodes everything tho...
If you want to back up the entire subreddit, if you have the storage available, a simple robot could do it.
I'd be happy to help any way I can. How would one go about reposting stuff? Just copy paste basically? And where would be a good place to start?
I'd think the best would be the recipe of the month threads, starting from the most recent and working back. Best to just copy, paste and credit. Just the recipes. Then we can work on the flavor reviews, again starting with the most recent. We can worry about formatting after. And any recipes that contain links to atf van be just posted as a link, with whatever notes. No need to format recipes yet.
Also, if we can identify what other useful info to save... I was thinking about creating a updated DIY mythbusting post anyhow, so something like that should be useful. Probably will do a update to the first order flavors, I'll collaborate with a couple folks for that (I plan to do it a little different than the one here was done, since I plan to break it down a little more granular by profile, so it's useful to people not planning to mix strawberry cream/custard. (/u/chemicalburnvictim, expect a PM about this some time today or tomorrow... you are the guru. Start thinking about rankings of flavors in terms if usefulness for desset tobaccos, cigarette recipes, cigar style, or pipe tobaccos. Yes, a number are useful for more than one. We'll hash it out in the writeup.) If there's someone who has a mastery of bakery flavors and thinks they can contribute a list of 'must have' baked goods (I'm guessing CAP SC and Cereal 27 and TFA CGC are on the list, probably INW biscuit and TFA A.P. too?) And a custard/cream specialist would probably also be useful for this. I mean VCV1, VBIC... those are probably the top two, I'd guess, possibly FA Fresh cream is up there, but beyond that....
And if /u/hocuskrokus could chime in on florals (for those who'd be interested in starting down that path) that'd be cool.
/u/id10-t what will happen to the mixers club?
I just spent $90 to renew the PO Box so if they're gonna ban us I hope they wait until September to do it!
Well, in theory it should be fine, due to the clearly posted, strictly enforced, and frequently mentioned NO NICOTINE rule.
However, with reddit's admin having their heads so far up their asses that they've decided even zero-nic juice giveaways would be grounds for nuking ECR, with them deciding for no logical reason that PG, VG, and food-grade flavors somehow equals a controlled substance (fucking goddamn morons!), Mixers Club might be doomed. It'll keep trucking along until that happens, though, and then we might just reorganize on facebook (ugh, I hate facebook) or Discord (sucks for organization, it's impossible really, but great for chatting) or some other virtual place. Who knows, maybe I'll even start a Mixers Club website so we won't be at the mercy of anyone shutting us down on a whim or because they've grown an extra chromosome or whatever happened at reddit HQ.
Forum on ATF? I reckon most of the recipes are made on there, so it might even help to keep things more organized since you could just post a link to the private recipe in the submission thread, do the description on the recipe itself, and critiques could be done in reviews.
You can’t write a review for a private recipe on the recipe but yes, if it comes to that, I’ll ask Q if we can have a space to put up our threads. We could indeed just post the descriptions on the recipes themselves. This is actually a great idea, the main drawback is that you have to have an ATF account, and I like that currently you don’t have to have any account on any recipe site to participate. The other drawback is that forum isn’t as easy to use or search in, so if, say, I wanted to see what you put in that one recipe I liked last year, or exactly what someone said about one of my works in progress a few months ago, that would be a huge pain. But, if anything happens to the current sub, ATF almost certainly where we’ll go. Great idea, thank you.
I really hope someone saves all the flavor review and fotw and other sidebar information that can hopefully be posted somewhere that is accessable. Would be a damn shame if all the valuable info on this sub vanished into thin air. Those faq Friday threads were also super awesome
Slowly working on it. Been travelling, so only have been able to use my phone. Once I get in front of a proper computer I can accomplish things a lot faster. So far, the list (and prioriity) is getting the monthly recipe threads (recipe posts only so far)... then FotW threads. Then the flavor reviews, since I'm pretty sure they're backed up already. (I'll probably save them offline before too long tho.) If there's any other must-save items, let's hear them?
I think the FAQ Friday posts have been really helpful. There are also some threads with comments that are super helpful, describing certain concentrates or how they work with each other - unfortunately its a bit difficult to find all of those though, they are kinda mixed in all over the place :( The general questions/new mixers question threads also have a bunch of helpful info a lot of the time.
kirkt you need to contact Reddit admins for any questions you have. Let us know what their statement is to you.
Yeah I'll put together a list of questions based on the comments here.
We do have strict and enforced rules against offers to buy or sell juice going for us, hopefully that will help, but if ECR mods have been threatened even about Omg juice giveaways... it sounds like they’ve gone full FDA
On one hand, the admins aren't necessarily always reasonable and who knows what they could do when deciding on a sub to sub basis...
BUT I think this sub will be okay (with regards to this change, at least). The main points were buying and selling involving nicotine, which we clearly dont do here, and solliciting or advertising for it. And as long as we take down nic vendors like someone else mentioned, I think our discussions are more clearly in the realm of their rules than say, r/electronic_cigarette.
Definitely not bashing ECR, but whenever you talk about juice there, its always a certain product of juice (ex: post discussing favorite eliquids and someone saying "I love Bombies nana cream!"). There is potentially more of an arguement to say that is advertising or whatever, than on this sub, where in terms of juice we usually talk about the ingredients and recipes. Even if we mention stuff about nicotine, they have clearly said discussion subs are okay (plus, r/trees and r/cocaine are still around)
TLDR although this whole sub is devoted to talking ejuice, we should be fine because we're a discussion based sub that does not advertise
You're coming at this with logic and reason while the admins are coming at this with a sledgehammer and loosely defined "rules".
We'll be fine until we're not. As this fiasco shows, the ban will be instant; without warning.
To adress one of your other points, /r/trees will be fine because Snoop Dogg frequents it and that's cool and hip PR for Reddit. The drug subs aren't going to last forever as history of Reddit shows the more controversial content the easier it is to silence it.
You mention the more controversial the sub, the more likely it is to stand.
I can't help but be reminded of the filth that is T_D hasn't been removed. Sometimes I peruse it just for the sake of it and it blows me away
I don't think any sub should be removed as long as it's not doing anything that actively calls for the physical harm of others.
If it's not the Donald, it's the redpill, not them then fatpeoplehate...ect. if I don't like something I don't look at it. One day someone will think what you like isn't okay and remove that. You can't say that won't happen considering the current situation. That's what I think anyways. People should be able to exercise their right of free speech as they see fit.
Freedom of speech wasn't put in the constitution to talk about the weather; it was meant to protect controversial content.
Huh, didn't know that about r/trees, but anyway I agree -- "We'll be fine until we're not" is the best way to simply describe the situation with Reddit here.
I suppose I was just trying to point out we should be fine for the time being, but I'm definitely supporting some of the other commenters in moving some precious content elsewhere as a backup, just for a rainy day...
From the update from the admins on ecr it looks like discussions/recommendations about ejuice are fine so one would hope discussions about flavours are as well :) No links to vendors selling ejuice/nicotine has been confirmed at ecr.
That’s actually an assumption. They did not reply about discussions or recommendations. The update was just about the gift cards/coupon topic.
They are essentially saying, “we don’t know, so might as well keep doing what you are doing.”
Well they posted that reviews and discussions were fine. Why would they say that and allow discussions to continue if not ok?
I hope someone can set up a mailing list to direct people to the new host, if reddit shuts down diy. I took me awhile to find this place, and I am sure it will take me awhile to find the next.
Also want to thank everyone for providing this place in the first place.
In the event that this sub is randomly shut down look at /r/electronic_cigarette for a thread about it, or another related sub. That would tell you what we would all migrate to.
If you keep me in the loop, I'll broadcast at at the top of All The Flavors. I don't really follow any other subreddits. :)
Good idea! I was just thinking of posting something along the lines of a link to a google doc where people could put their username to be on a mailing list in case we wake up one day to find the sub has completely vanished. But if that were to happen, surely people will be able to find information about where to go on ECR and - thank you /u/queuetue - ATF. There might also be information about a new home for DIYers disseminated on ELR and by DIYorDIE and other DIY youtubers. They can kick us off their platform but they can't keep us apart for long. DIY... uh... finds a way.