(Before you downvote, I promise this is not another low-effort "guys help me clone hawk sauce plz!!!" post. In fact, this is going to be a long post with detailed notes. I did not think it would be appropriate to post this in the Clone Request thread as it's more of a "help me fine-tune these flavors" post, not "clone this for me".)
Yup: Hawk Sauce. It has been my ADV for years now, and I have not found a single other flavor or recipe that even comes close to dethroning it for me. I really enjoy it not only because its flavor profile somehow manages to shift throughout the day, but also because it's a very light vape that's not too in-your-face.
It's also a gigantic pain in the ass to clone.
Before I go any further, I'd just like to say that I have mixed every single clone recipe I could find on the internet, and that is not an exaggeration. None of them come close. They either focus too much on the complexity of the flavors (FA Fuji? Seriously?) or generalize the profile as "sweet tarts and menthol" and miss the mark entirely by working with flavors like OSDIY Blue Raspberry Slushie. No, no, no, no, no, a million times no.
MBV has recently updated their descriptions, and now describes Hawk Sauce as a "tangled dance of blackberry, raspberry, and sweet and sour gummi with a nice menthol finish". They also indicate on their site that it is a "tank cracker". Additionally, it has been mentioned previously here on reddit (albeit a few years ago) that the menthol comes from an "alcoholic" flavoring.
So, armed with this knowledge, I've been trying to come up with a mix. I've come close but unfortunately no dice yet. I figured the best thing I can do at this point is to post my notes here and hope that someone sees something that I've missed. I would like to emphasize that I am trying to build a stone/concentrate (due to the information available to me) and I am not mixing these straight into PG/VG. However, I obviously then mix and then do a taste test.
Okay, so first I set out to make a list of all FW flavors that are within the flavor profile of Hawk Sauce and that are also tank crackers. They are:
- FW Blackberry Mojito
- FW Gummi Candy
- FW Jungle Juice
- FW Mojito
- FW Sweet Tarts
This does not mean Hawk Sauce is limited to these flavorings, but I strongly believe the base is here somewhere.
Now, I've been ordering pure Hawk Sauce concentrate ("Flavor Shots") from MBV to mix to save money, and the concentrate is a really nice, somewhat deep gold color. Both FW Gummi Candy and FW Jungle Juice are deep gold. Paired with some smell/taste tests, I believe that FW Jungle Juice is definitely in Hawk Sauce. I know it is also the main star of Thug Juice, but it is there. I smell it, and I taste it. It also makes a lot of sense, given the tank-cracking properties and the deep gold color. But it's definitely not as in-your-face as it is in Thug Juice, so there's definitely more guests at the party.
To touch on the fact that "the menthol comes from an alcoholic flavor", which was posted here by an MBV employee a few years ago: everyone thought that this implied FW Blackberry Mojito or FW Mojito were a component. I do not have FW Mojito (its on order, just so I can cover all my bases), so unfortunately I don't know much about it. FW Blackberry Mojito, on the other hand, I do have, and it smells the way I would have thought FW Sweet Tarts should smell. It is also a pale yellow, almost yellow-green-ish color, so it fits the color profile somewhat. HOWEVER, I think a lot of people did not realize that FW Jungle Juice IS an alcoholic flavor -- Jungle Juice is what you'd call a punch bowl mixed with random alcoholic drinks, AND it obviously gives the menthol component. So I'm a little iffy on whether FW Blackberry Mojito is really in Hawk Sauce.
Now, the raspberry. I'm pretty sure it's either FW Raspberry, or they're just including raspberry because that's one of the flavors in the description of FW Jungle Juice. I can definitely confirm that TFA's raspberry flavors do NOT work with Jungle Juice... it somehow ends up tasting like candied tree bark. Nasty. The problem is that once you start layering FW Raspberry on top of FW Jungle Juice and FW Gummi Candy, it starts to get a bit lost and hard to detect, which in turn makes it difficult to tell if I'm taking the mix in the right direction. Bring the percentage up too high, though, and it somehow manages to overpower the Jungle Juice in a reaaaaal bad way.
Now for some solid numbers. My latest attempt, mixed in a 10mL bottle, was:
- 5 mL FW Jungle Juice (bit too high)
- 2 mL FW Raspberry
- 1.5 mL FW Blackberry Mojito
- .75 mL FW Gummi Candy (bit too high, can get very overpowering at 1mL)
- .75 mL FW Sweet Tarts (meh)
So, my final thoughts are:
- My mixes are coming out too yellow. They need to be much more deep gold. Therefore, I think I need more flavoring from FW Jungle Juice / FW Gummi Candy in order to bring it back toward that end of the spectrum, but without overpowering the other flavors. Maybe there is a gold-colored concentrate that I've missed?
- I really do believe all the flavorings are limited to FW, but I am certainly open to suggestions from TFA.
- FW Sweet Tarts tastes like ass and is probably not in the mix.
- Anyone who suggests FA Fuji or OSDIY Blue Raspberry Slushie are in the mix have clearly not vaped Hawk Sauce recently.
I know this was a long-ass thread and I apologize for the length. I really wanted to show that this is not another low-effort attempt to clone a popular juice, and that I have put in a LOT of work and investigation so far. Despite how frustrated I get with this "project," I am really having a lot of fun putting the puzzle pieces together, or so to speak. I just think I've hit a bit of a wall and a fresh perspective might just be what I need to finish this project. I've wanted to post this for a few weeks now, but due to the somewhat controversial nature of MBV/Hawk Sauce/"plz clone!!!", I put it off, but you know what? I worked hard on this, and I need some help, so I hope those of you who would rather not be helpful can resist downvoting.
These are the type of clone posts that we like to see. Trials and errors with relevant notes.
Thank you for all of your hard work, and also thank you for sharing with us.
While I've never vaped hawk sauce, I can appreciate everything about this quality post. I also hope someone can jump in with relevant info to further your quest.
Have you tried to simplify it? Jungle juice with just Gummi, and/or Red Licorice? Try matching as much of the base as possible, then add some sweetener (and that might be the entire recipe in actuality). Otherwise, try and identify what is missing once you have two major components right.
Yup, definitely tried to keep it simple at first and mixed up Jungle Juice + Gummi, Jungle + Rasp, etc., and it always tasted pretty good but unfortunately lacked the "special something" that Hawk Sauce has.
FWIW my local vape shop sells their version that is SUPER similar as "seven seas" and I have seen mention of someone calling theirs "trident" or "posioden" or some variation of those 2 in the name...
I recall my local vape shop telling them they use "thug juice" or "jungle juice" and thats why they couldnt make it without menthol at the time (I asked if they had a non menthol version and that was their answer). My LVS used some recipes that are very common, and were from some old school mixing company they used to work for, then left and setup their own shop... so , i think you are on the right path with the "jungle juice"
I am hoping you clone it and i can copypasta but remove whatever has the menthol in it. thawed sauce is where its at for me.
EDIT : Neptune was another name I saw this go by... and i bet your raspberry and blackberry mojito could be summed up with something like CAP Harvestberry or some mixed fruit/berry blend. I have heard of a clone that is harvest berry and sweet tarts and menthol, even tho i konw its wrong, it could be that the berry is a mixed berry.
If I remember right, If you look through very old posts, you'll find MBV discontinued Hawk Sauce, that was the bad news. The glorious news was that MBV then posted the official recipie here to this sub. I copied it down. Later today I will dig through my database to find it and re-post it.
Well shit....I can't find the database!! Grrrrr!!! BUT I did do some digging by searching MBV's post history which didn't go past 2 years ago...I know it was posted at least 3+ years ago. Shortly after the FDA Regs were first introduced. Anyway I also tried googling it and found a recipe that looks very familiar. I made the stuff so much that while I am not sure on the percentages the flavors look right. Maybe one of you Old Timers remember the post? Anyway here is what I found that looks like what I remember making...
TFA Watermelon 13% .
TFA Grape Jolly Rancher 8% .
TFA Menthol 1% .
TFA EM 2% .
TFA Koolada 1.5%.
Citric Acid (AKA Sour) 1% .
I hope it's right...because it looks right from what I remember.
Interesting! If I had to guess which juice this was just from looking at the recipe, I'd have to say it's a Thug Juice clone that doesn't use Jungle Juice. Watermelon + GJR + Menthol sounds like it would get you pretty close to Jungle Juice without actually using it. I'm also pretty sensitive to watermelon flavoring... dunno what does it but I always end up with a headache.
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Official recipe leaked a long time ago, its
2 parts Raspberry (unknown brand, custom ingredient) 2 parts Blackberry (unknown brand, custom ingredient) 1 part Jungle Juice (Flavor West) 1 part Sour (Flavor West)
20% total in finnished product
Edit: I realise this is only somewhat helpful, not sure what brand the custom ingredients are.
This might be it! I've added another 2 oz of FW Raspberry and FW Blackberry to my cart. That said, I wonder exactly how "custom" their raspberry and blackberry flavorings are... considering we're talking about MBV, and Hawk Sauce was probably released around, what, 2012?... I'm just a little skeptical they would have a custom flavoring. 100% not questioning you personally, more just thinking out loud.
Also -- haven't we come to the conclusion that citric/malic acid don't really come through in vapor because of the lack of prolonged contact with our taste buds? I'm pretty sure I've read that they have no positive benefits in ejuice and just end up gunking coils. This makes me even more convinced that your recipe is accurate though... there's definitely not a lot (or maybe even any) sweetener in Hawk Sauce... my cotton survives way too long for there to be... but that being said, it definitely does turn brownish after a week or so which is probably from the FW Sour! I wonder if I leave that out of the mix and just replace it with 1 part PG, then maybe my cotton will survive a little longer.
Thank you very, very, very much for this.
Not sure what FW Sour is, if its just some acid like TPAs.
FA and INW have more interesting "sours" though, INWs is actually a flavoring, not acid. FAs def has salts in it to counter flavor muting by acidity, haven't reached out to them for more information though. Could be that FW Sour is more than just acid solution, but don't quote me on this.
So would this come out to something like:
6.66% Raspberry
6.67% Blackberry
3.33% Jungle Juice
3.34% Sour
?
I suppose so. It could all very well be FW, the recipe could just have been copied from some software where the publisher couldn't be arsed to specify a manufacturer for each flavor, god knows I do this all the time.
20% flavoring is a MBV standard if I recall correctly. I think they also do/did flavorshots of extra 2.5% each.
I hope you find the recipe I started DIY to try and clone watermelon crack and just a short time after a great mixer cloned it close enough and its been my ADV since so I know how you feel
Mind linking it?
Greetings. +1 for non low effort post.
It's been a while from the last time I've had Hawk Sauce, and it was around the time I started doing DIY mixing, so it's been a while. And though I can't comment too much on the current flavor of it (all I remember is lots of fruit and way too much menthol for my liking).
What I can offer though is some things that 'might' help, if logic stands right with you of course ;p
> My mixes are coming out too yellow. They need to be much more deep gold.
This is a real simple one TBH. Just let it sit for a while. The color will change and the flavors will change as well. I would be willing to put down that if you are close right now, letting things sit for a while might be the one little thing. Could be off point though SHRUG
> I really do believe all the flavorings are limited to FW
Good chance that is true, but also maybe think outside of the box a little with additives like crictic acid, salts, ect ect. I know that some of my own mixes have evolved into totally different things once I started using additives to really kick it up a notch. It's hard in small quantities to use them but if you dilute them out they are easier to work with. I also mix in large batches (nothing smaller than 500 ml) so there is a lot more wiggle room.
> FW Sweet Tarts tastes like ass and is probably not in the mix.
&
> Anyone who suggests FA Fuji
Just going to throw it out there, cranberry ;p
Hopefully this might be helpful in some way, at least maybe somethings that have not been considered.
GL and again, thanks for putting forth the effort on the post.
Thank you!
I've been working on this for a while, so a lot of the stones/concentrates have had a chance sit :). Unfortunately none of them changed color.
As for experimenting with acids/salts, that's right up my alley definitely. I just want to get the base of the flavor down first before I start getting experimental and fine-tuning it for my tastes. Maybe I'm not giving 2012-MBV enough credit but I don't think they experimented too much with that stuff :)
Have you tried adding FW razzleberry? It has some alcoholic notes to it, and it's a syrupy/tangy raspberry.
Well shit. I forgot all about FW Razzleberry. I used to mix it up as a single flavor and liked it quite a bit. The main problem I had was olfactory fatigue, though... after a few days the juice practically tasted unflavored.
I've thrown a bottle of it into my cart though! Can't hurt to try!
Came here to mention this.
It's been a loooooong time since I've had hawk sauce but around that time I had just picked up FW razzleberry. I remember them smelling quite similar to each other. But like I said, this is going back a few years and my memory ain't that flash.
Definitely. It's sort of like a candy twizzlers raspberry flavour https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/3gbm3g/rockin_razzberry_recipe/ is a good one with FW Razzle. I think it might be the missing link. I wouldn't be surprised if Hawk sauce is Jungle juice 6-10% and 2-4% of razzleberry.
Small update: my flavor orders have come in! I made a few 10mL bottles of base/stone according to the recipe that /u/nipar shared, and mixed corresponding 10mL bottles of 70/30 0 nic + 1.5% Koolada juice.
- 2 parts FW Rasp + 2 parts FW Blackberry + 1 part FW Jungle Juice + 1 part TFA Sour
- 2 parts FW Rasp + 2 parts FW Blackberry + 1 part FW Jungle Juice + 1 part LB Sour
- 2 parts FW Rasp + 2 parts FW Blackberry + 1 part FW Jungle Juice + 1 part FA Sour Wizard
- 2 parts FW Rasp + 2 parts FW Blackberry + 2 parts FW Jungle Juice
- 2 parts FW Rasp + 2 parts FW Blackberry + 1 part FW Jungle Juice + 1 part PG (no sour attempt, aka "please spare my cotton")
I ran out of bottles so I've gotta make another purchase already lol. I'm going to throw FW Razzleberry and FW Yumberry into my cart upon recommendation from /u/Jthectic and /u/not_pennywise respectively.
And thanks again to /u/_Yodai for the additives inspiration.
Will update after they've had some time in a warm water bath. I've found that the MBV Hawk Sauce concentrate usually needs a week to really flesh out, but I'll take some preliminary notes.
2nd update:
2 parts FW Rasp + 2 parts FW Blackberry + 1 part FW Jungle Juice + 1 part FA Sour Wizard
It's very, very, very close. It's entirely possible it just needs a little more time to steep, and it's entirely possible that it's due to me using FA Sour Wizard instead of FW Sour (I swear to god I keep forgetting to put this in my cart before I checkout!!! Three times now! Argh!).
But honestly it's my closest attempt yet, by far! I really like how FA Sour Wizard works with the berries. It definitely still mutes the overall flavor -- which I honestly enjoy since I don't like in-your-face flavors -- and it gives a more well-rounded sourness/wetness/je-ne-sais-quoi than I detect in regular Hawk Sauce.
I've still got FW Razzleberry and FW Yumberry on their way, as I'm really curious about using those in place of FW Raspberry + FW Blackberry. So until I test those I can't call this project finished, but I am so very close!
Hey /u/oblivion2k, tagging you since you asked :)
Cheers friend! I'll be putting in an order soon! How much flavoring would you use? I'm not familiar with this 'parts' vernacular. Would it be 6% perhaps, with each part being 1 percent?
To make a test batch: figure out how much final product you want. Let's say 30 mL. I personally like the flavoring for this to be 20%, but I know others like to go lower. So just choose your percentage and turn it into a decimal (20% = 0.2) and multiply it by the volume (30 mL), so here we'd get 0.2 * 30 = 6 mL of flavoring. Divide 6 by the total number of parts (2 parts + 2 parts + 1 part + 1 part = 6 parts), so 6/6 = 1 mL per part. Therefore 2mL FW Rasp + 2mL of FW Blackberry + 1 mL FW JJ + 1 mL sour.
In general, I like to pre-make the concentrate. I have a 4 oz bottle (so 120 mL) that I use, so 120 mL / 6 parts = 20 mL per part. So in this bottle I put 40mL FW Rasp + 40mL FW Blackberry, etc etc etc. I then just mix this at 20%.
Love this thread! I share your dream. I have also tried every "XX% clone" on the interwebs (Clove, Fuji -- ahem) . In my independent efforts I've been convinced of the presence of FW Gummi. Trying again starting with the above. Thanks -- keep us posted!
Vape wild's cowboy cooler is basically a hawk sauce clone. You might want to get some clues and ideas from their description and reviews as well. Hawk sauce use to be my must buy from mntbaker, after I found out vapewild had a clone I use to buy theirs because it's so close to the original and cheaper. I love jungle juice as well and I'm pretty sure it's used in hawk sauce.
I tried to clone hawk sauce when I first started since it was my LVS's best selling "house blends". I gave up on it after 2 tries. My last attempt was:
- 6% FW Jungle Juice
- 2% FW Salt Water Taffy
- 2% FW Black Currant
- 1% FW Menthol
- .5% FW Sweetener
It has been nearly a year since I tried to clone it and I honestly can't even remember if I was close or not.
This is a really interesting attempt! I don't think I've ever seen a clone recipe use FW Salt Water Taffy or FW Blackcurrant before. I've thrown two 10mL bottles of those into my cart for the hell of it, but I think those two are moving away from Hawk Sauce a bit. Definitely a hell of a lot closer, IMO, than the clone recipe that uses Acai, or the one with Clove. I think the blackcurrant is a bit too "dark" of a berry for Hawk Sauce... almost like pomegranate, they pair really well with chocolate and aren't as bright. Hawk Sauce is very bright.
Wait, wait, wait...Someone put CLOVE in their clone attempt?! laughs uncontrollably
Whew, ok...Salt Water Taffy invokes the gummy/chewiness of the Hawk Sauce and weirdly enough, Jungle Juice is actually strong enough at 5%+ to force Black Currant into the background. I agree that it's definitely a dark berry and I haven't vaped Hawk Sauce since the Kanger LeakyBox was the prime AIO. So, my memory of how it tasted when I attempted to clone it may have been a bit off.
Man, I love it when somebody starts digging through the recipes and doesn’t give up. Look at my history, I’m like that too.
I would like to join in on this one, but I don’t know where to get it in Germany....
Keep up the good work and your passion!
Nice one. I remember researching this a while ago and the "There is no menthol in Hawk Sauce" really put a lot of people on the wrong path. Nowadays MBV even states that it's in there on their site. Even if the person that said it had inside knowledge, my guess is that they didn't know that Jungle Juice had it in there. And JJ is definitely in Hawk Sauce.
I don't know if this helps you but I used to order Hawk Sauce base from MBV before they outsourced their production and the base is pretty red. Definitely not yellow like Jungle Juice. I have a lot of FW flavors (maybe 50) and the only one that even comes close to that color is Yumberry. I also don't how you'd get enough of it in there to make the base that color as it'd have to be the majority. This lead me to believe that either there is an obvious dark flavoring from FW they used that I don't have or possibly there was some Lorann in there.
I definitely wish you luck if you choose to continue to chase The Hawk.
Something must have changed since you last got some Hawk Sauce base. They disappeared for a while, but MBV finally brought them back 6-12 months ago and I've been making my own Hawk Sauce that way ever since. The concentrate is definitely no longer red, it's more of a transparent gold.
Interesting. Good info. I saw they had brought back flavoring concentrates under and called them flavor boosts or something but didn't know if they were exactly the same. I wonder if they switched flavorings or the flavorings just lost the artificial colorings.
I see you got some good info in the thread and have some experiments in the works. I think I still have a small bottle of the old concentrate and I have some Lorann raspberry and blackberry. If I have some time maybe I'll follow your 2:2:1 pattern with those to see if any of the combos feel close to the color and flavor. If I get a chance and come up with anything that feels useful I'll let you know.
Nice.
I'm very jealous of your flair. How does one acquire something that majestic?
I've heard bad things about MBV, but they must be doing something right judging by the extents you're going to clone a recipe of theirs. Good luck.
P.s. Asking people not to downvote probably causes more downvotes than if you didn't ask.
Years ago, when the vape scene was much less mature and I was vaping for the first time (I eventually went back to cigs), I used to order from MBV exclusively. They were cheap, and they had a ton of different flavors. Now I'm pretty sure that a lot of those flavors were basically just one concentrate. But Hawk Sauce was definitely one of their best. I suspect a lot of people had a similar experience. Their stuff isn't bad, but they didn't have complex, layered flavors like a lot of the "premium" ejuice companies do. They were damn cheap, though.
Edit: Hell, they'd even sell "concentrated" versions of their flavors that you could drop into unflavored PG/VG/Nic that they'd sell. Probably just reselling TFA or something. I noticed they had stopped offering that the last time I looked at their site.
This. And FWIW, Hawk Sauce was the only flavor I ever even liked from MBV. I tried SO many and they were either way too overpowering (Grape, Thug Juice), or tasted like plastic (pretty much all of their bakery/dessert flavors). The worst offender of all was their berry crunch cereal flavor... I swear to god I took a hit of it and I tasted seafood buffet. Immediately started dry heaving. I swear I saw the Pearly Gates that day.
BTW, they brought back the flavor concentrates. That's how I've been making Hawk Sauce for the last six months or so. Saves me a decent amount of money but $4.99/15mL ($16/240mL finished product, minus cost of PG/VG/extra Koolada from BCF) is still more expensive than it would be if I crack this recipe!
Fair warning I’ve never vaped this, but when I hear menthol coming from “alcoholic” flavors I immediately think Creme de Menthe?
Hey man, what about TPA BLUE Raspberry?
There's a recipe here that uses it: http://e-liquid-recipes.com/recipe/837935/95%25%20MBV%20Hawk%20Sauce%20Clone%20
But I have no idea if this guy's even on the right track.
Oh, man. That recipe. I had such high hopes for it. No offense to the original mixer, but it was a raging dumpster fire. Way too much going on... too many flavors not playing nicely with each other... oof.
Ahah well you just saved me some cash and time in not bothering to try it then!
I mean... if you drop the clove, Tart & Sour, and the Raspberry Sweet, I think it might taste relatively good. TFA Raspberry Sweet is really hard to layer (in my experience). For example, if you mix it with CAP Blue Rasp Cotton Candy, it tastes like chocolate. It's a great flavor and it works exceedingly well in certain recipes, but you have to be really careful with it.
Hawk sauce is my first love in regards to vaping. Awesome post man and I hope you keep us updated/let us know if you need any help. Have you taken into consideration that they also sell thawed sauce which they say is hawk sauce without the menthol hit, so that may help you narrow down what concentrates might be used in it and in what way.