I see this term in lots of flavor reviews. According to wikipedia, it seems to be related to the mouth's general sensation of an ingested substance. The article also equates mouthfeel to texture.
When I vape an eliquid, I taste flavors. By taste I mean use my sense of smell and in a much lesser extent the taste buds in the mouth. Generally, I taste sweetness, sourness, saltiness, bitterness, and umami. Specifically, I taste the mix of flavor concentrates (vanilla custard, bananas foster, etc.). I taste strong or weak mixes. Since I don't eat or drink the mixes, I don't taste thick, chewy, wet, dry, grainy, or any kind of density.
I've thought that flavor reviewers that used these terms were just trying to be pretentious, using some kind of secret or insider understanding of the flavorings. I've also thought these descriptions to be unhelpful. I just don't understand.
If a tobacco concentrate is described as dry, does it mean it tastes acrid and reminds the vaper of the feeling of something dry? If that is the case, it seems it would be more helpful to describe the taste as acrid, pungent, bitter, sharp, sour, tart, caustic, harsh, irritating, acidic, etc., something a vaper can actually sense (as apposed to something inferred).
I really want to know what is meant by the terms being used.
Just a preface here, I know almost nothing about why any of this stuff works but apparently I don't have a problem speculating wildly. I'm probably like 90% wrong on any actual mechanical stuff.
Mouthfeel in vaping is strange. It's definitely not the same thing as actual texture in food, but it seems somehow more substantial than all that perfumery Top/Mid/Base stuff. The terminology seems to have just kind of grown from whatever borrowed food or perfume terms that people have worked in and kind of grown from there. I think "mouthfeel" is one of those terms. It sounds a whole lot better than sinus feel or whatever.
I find a whole lot of variation in density between flavors, and I think that's primarily where the mouthfeel thing comes from. I'm totally ignorant of the actual mechanics of it, but some flavors just seem to coat your mouth and sinuses. That's usually where the references to density come from. Something like a custard absolutely saturates your sinuses, with that flavor giving you a pretty heavy sensation of a full vape along with whatever small amount of actual tactile interaction with your actual tastebuds. Something more top heavy like a citrus mostly hits on what feels like the top of your sinuses, but generally doesn't really envelop the palate. I do think in general stuff with a denser mouthfeel actual does produce a denser tactile sensation... or at least the DAAP, or whatever chemical analogues mimic that, ends up hitting your palate and gives the impression of a thicker vapor. The chewy thing, for me at least, is just an impression of extreme fullness. Like the vapor actually feels relatively solid as far as those things go.
The moist/dry thing also factors in for me. Vaping something with a dry mouthfeel like INW Cherries actually seems to be sucking the moisture off my tongue and sinuses. The moister stuff gives the opposite impression. It seems to be a smoother, moister sensation. Could all be flavor association, but it seems to interact with the preexisting moisture in my mouth and sinuses in physically different ways.
Grain is a little weirder for me. I'm not sure why it works like it does, but if you vape like straight Acetyl Pyrazine it's an extreme example. It's the weird combination of dryness with something that really does feel like you have some sort of discrete pockets of texture rubbing against each other. Again, actually knowing something about food science would probably help here because I have no idea how the hell it works. I do find I get graininess more on the the tongue and back of the throat than in the sinuses, so maybe it's firing off a specific kind of receptor? Again, wild guess.
I think if mouthfeel wasn't a thing, then DAAP wouldn't be a thing. I'm sure they're targeting something there. All of the language being used is more relative to whatever counts as texture as vaping, and isn't directly comparable to the use of that language in the places where it was borrowed from.
I think you are on the right track here concrete. Some of the molecules used aren't just aromatics, they do have actual tastebud interaction, which is why some flavors do have a natural sweetness to them, as they have properties that interact with the sweetness receptors on the tongue and throat.
I think the dryness/wetness aspect is related to PH balance of the recipe. I've been testing everything I mix since I got my test paper in, and recipes that seem a bit dry (though that isn't always a bad thing) seem to be a bit more acidic on the ph levels (like 4, 5 and 6 ph levels.) Recipes that are either at a neutral 7, or a bit higher 8, 9, 10, 11 ph levels, all seem to have either a balanced wetness or a heavy thickness feel to them. I am starting to think PH levels do have some relation to the density of the vapor aerosol and the perception of mouthfeel. On a different side of the mouthfeel sensation, levels of sweetener contribute to this feeling.
When combining the receptor sensations from sweetness on the tastebuds while simultaneously activating nasal receptors with aromas, the brain perceives a different aroma as would be perceived without the presence of the sweetness activation. Everything we are exposed to has to be processed by the brain before we consciously understand what information we are taking in. Same way our eyes work. This is why no two witnesses to the same event will have the exact same perspective. Same goes for what we smell and taste, each person is very different.
As an example, you know I'm super sensitive. But I don't often talk about how I lack the ability to taste creams. I just don't get much from them other than off tastes. There are a few I can taste, but much like there are a ton of strawberry non-tasters, I would classify myself as almost a cream non-taster. I have to have others who can taste creams test recipes for me that are cream heavy, cause they just don't work for me.
Oh and those aromas that make you feel like you can actually chew on it...not much different than walking into someone's potent fart that literally feels like you're chewing on shit. There are just some aromas that are thick enough in perception that give the illusion of being able to chew on it. There isn't really anything there to chew on, it's like a trick of the mind.
I think much like the term steeping has little to do with the actual act of aging a mixed juice, terms like mouthfeel have become common language that doesn't necessarily mean what it is defined as.
You've got me curious about PH levels. I looked up some MSDS sheets from a few flavoring companies (FA, FLV, INW, TPA) and was surprised that PH levels aren't included on them. It should be in section Physical and Chemical Properties but as examples, INW Biscuit has PH listed but says "not determinated" and TPA Blueberry Extra also has it listed but says "no data."
I'd be interested in seeing your results on PH testing if you'd be willing to share it here sometime, mostly because I gravitate towards wetter and heavier. Maybe I could achieve some of that with higher VG (?) but I like the throat hit and less clouds from 50/50 mixes.
There are a few interesting studies on mouthfeel (this one being the most interesting). These concentrates are made to produce certain sensations to make them more authentic to their flavor profiles. Whether you can "feel" them or not is obviously dependent on the the person. One piece I found interesting was that there was some suggestion that texture is a learned sensation from our past knowledge of the profile. Also, vaping concentrated aroma is a completely new thing. There is still a lot we don't know simply because of how new the medium is.
Actually, the sensation of wet or dry is real enough. It's like you can tell the air in the desert is far different than the humid air in a swamp.(Basically, a 'dry' "taste" is removing moisture from your skin, while a 'wet' "taste" is increasing saliva production.) Similarly, there are chemicals (the WS compounds) that make the membranes in your mouth and throat feel cold (even though they're in a vapor that's around 200 degrees). There are other chemicals that give a warming sensation. Are all of the 'feels' for real? Possibly. It's also possible some are the power of suggestion. Or careful combination of sensations that can be generated to closely mimic something impossible to replicate,.
So what additives other than the flavors themselves, can be used to increase "mouth feel" in a mix?
It's not a matter of concentrates, it's a matter of individual chemicals. Very few flavor concentrates contain a single chemical in a PG base (Menthol and the various Koolada versions are kinda rare in that) so some flavors can give a legitimate feel. Like INW Cactus feeling 'wet'. There are 'additive' flavors that tend to 'dry out' a vape, IIRC a couple of the Oak versions do that. I don't know every concentrate. Maybe somebody has a concentrate that just 'feels' gritty, with no attached flavor, but... and various marshmallow flavors are supposed to feel 'thicker'. Maybe someone else could give a better answer.
> it seems it would be more helpful to describe the taste as...
then do it. review some flavors
acrid and dry are not the same thing imo.
dry describes the texture or feeling of the vapor... in the mouth. almost like a mouth feeling of some sort... someone should really make a word for that.
fa pineapple is acrid
> then do it. review some flavors
Challenge accepted. I always single flavor test new concentrates, but I've been hesitant to contribute because I haven't believed I could come up to the level of what I see in this subreddit.
> acrid and dry are not the same thing imo
I agree, acrid is a taste (or smell) and dry is some other sensation.
> fa pineapple is acrid
Thanks, good to know, CAP Golden Pineapple is tasty.
I think its confusing when DIYers say "this juice has a good mouthfeel." Its far too subjective and makes me say wtf does he mean? If i were to describe mouthfeel i would say that cap custard as a standalone gives a very wet and dense mouthfeel and that this comes down when in a mix with others typically. In comparison Graham Cracker (FW) has a less dense mouthfeel in comparison.
To me dense mouthfeel can often feel like its too thick and can often give me that deep cough reflex. In fact i feel like it only amounts to the feeling in your lung and on the exhale. One thing i would largely attribute to a dense mouthfeel is that of a High VG ejuice personally. Again, i agree its very subjective and to this day i still dont know what grainy is, i just assume it means harsh or something because ive never taken a hit off of something and been like, thats grainy.
I remember an article that was written by adababa or someone a little prominent in the community that discussed mouthfeel and enhancing the mouthfeel of your recipe by either adding special compounds (like marshmallow), or balancing the pH level of the final mix. Perhaps our perception of mouthfeel is dependent on how acidic or basic the final mixture really is. One thing I know for sure is, adding marshmallow works wonders for density and mouthfeel.