I mixed some benzoic acid in concentrations of 1mg per 1mg of nicotine to store bought juice per 10ml (6ml nic so I added 18-20mg. The benzoic acid didn't dissolve completely yet.
The nicotine seems smoother. I'll try with high nicotine next time!
Benzoic acid smells like cat piss.
I recommend a Gemini-20 scale, or if you have a larger scale you can do volumetric measurement (PG suggested to dissolve).
I'm going to repost this here, for the benefit of anyone interested in what's going on when you add benzoic acid to freebase nicotine solutions.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/6rbuki/benzoic_acid_for_diy_nicotine_salts/dl9yf69/
> Technically speaking, adding benzoic acid to freebase nicotine will produce nicotine salts at the time of vaporization due to a reaction caused by the heat. At which point the nicotine salt solution is vaporized for inhalation. It's a worse trade, chemically speaking, than cigarettes use, which use nicotine salts combined with ammonia. At the point of combustion, the reaction causes it to convert into freebase nicotine for greater bioavailability.
>Until you apply the heat to vape it, though, you have a diluted freebase nicotine solution that has benzoic acid dissolved in it. Which may very well have certain benefits you want, but it isn't nicotine salts.
For some reason, when combustion is involved, freebase nic is more effective, yes. However, for vaping temperatures, salt nic is far more effective... likely because the pH balance of the juice allows much higher nic with far less throat-rape. If freebase is 10x as potent as nic salts, but nic salts allow 15x the dose to be administered...
The reason freebase is more effective with a combustion product is because smoke molecules are smaller than vapor molecules, meaning the nicotine has greater exposure due to surface area. Theoretically speaking, if you removed the ammonia from a cigarette and smoked just the nicotine salts your body would receive a higher dosage than an equivalent amount of nicotine salts which were vaporized. It's the method of delivery which makes it more effective, not the type of nicotine. The transition from salts into freebase is merely a preservation method.
I'm not arguing that nicotine salts at the time of vaporization is something that may be worthwhile, depending on what the person wants. Personally speaking, I've tried nic salts and I'm not a fan, but they have their uses.
The issue I have is people who believe that adding benzoic acid to freebase nicotine creates a bottle of nicotine salts. Which simply isn't the way the chemistry works. If you want nicotine salts at the time of inhalation, it's an alright stopgap assuming you adjust the dosage to account for the non-nicotine additives. But if you want some of the additional properties of nicotine salts, such as increased shelf life, adding benzoic acid doesn't help; you end up with a bottle of freebase that has an additive in it.
But the people offering these solutions don't include these disclaimers. It's not "Get a nicotine salt experience with freebase", it's inevitably treated like some sort of alchemical "Turn freebase into nic salts" solution, which is at best a misunderstanding of the science, at worst disingenuous.
Thanks for the info.
How do I turn it into salts? How did pax do it with their juul?
I'm not going to go into the process for a couple of reasons.
- It's available for people who want it. Being chemistry, it's just a matter of applying the correct process.
- I do not believe it can be done once the nicotine has been diluted with PG and/or VG. The vast majority(with one possible caveat, see later) of nicotine salt creation is done prior to dilution. Because talking about home use of anything above 100mg/ml is not allowed, I am not willing to risk it.
Now, the caveat to this is that it's possible Juul has decided to essentially take your route with nicotine salts; they create a nicotine/PG/Benzoic Acid solution, which then catalyzes into salts at the point of vaporization. I do not know Juul's operating structure, but if they do not create nicotine in-house it would allow them to get massive amounts of nicotine, of which freebase is the most plentiful, and then convert it into something which, for the purposes of vaping, acts as nicotine salts.
But, once again, it would not have the same properties of nicotine salts before the literal point of vaporization, meaning the shelf-life would be treated as freebase and the mixtures would need to be modified to account for the added benzoic acid.
I'm going to very briefly touch on how a company might broadly handle undiluted nicotine. Mods, if I'm out of line here, please feel free to delete this part.
Being as how they're a large company, though, I'm guessing they could course correct this by either mixing with undiluted nicotine, and treating benzoic acid as an additive to all their recipes, or if they dilute it in house for usage on an assembly line, taking the added benzoic acid into account so their final dilution is still XXXmg/ml. My guess is the latter, because undiluted nicotine is a bitch to handle and accidents would be catastrophic.
So to make "real salts" I'd have to get freebase and premix it? I'm surprised there's not more info. Can you PM me a link on how? I could only find info from pax.
I suppose I should change the title, it's not that I made nicotine salts, I made a suspension that turns into salts.
Id like to know if they even do it interchangeably if there's not a big perception of difference.
Thanks for the info man.
i dont know much about salts. im not knocking the salts, I'll probably try them when I get the chance, i mean polyethelene glycol doesnt exactly sound wholesome and natural either.
I only did it because I had freebase that would go to waste otherwise. They spread FUD about vaping but we do it to ourselves too.
The fact is we don't know what's bad. The flavorings are unknown. The rest of the food grade cart is for eating not vaping.
I hope none of the base ingredients I use are toxic. I doubt its worst than cigarettes though.
You want to have use 122/162, or about 3/4s as much benzoic acid as you use nicotine if you want them in equimolar amounts; benzoic acid weighs less per molecule than nicotine
this kinda reminds me of cigarette manufacturers putting ammonia in cigs to make the nic hit you harder
Salts are everywhere now, if you don't like salts don't do this. I know what you mean though.
It smells like cat piss. There's way too much of it. Vaping cat piss sounds like when OP vaped dads piss. https://amp.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/comments/448kyx/help_please_i_just_got_a_new_tank_after_my_old/