I've been mixing for myself and my family for a little over a year now. I've recently started having some friends, and friends of friends, asking me if I can make for/sell to them also. So far, I've been declining them as I don't want The Man to come down on me.
I'm in Idaho, USA, and my state and local laws are pretty straight forward. I've been looking on the internet for laws and regulations, but the only definitive info I've found is on the FDA regulations. Even that is quite difficult to decipher.
How do the deadlines work? If I'm filing all new info for a new company do I need to do it before the deadline? Or does the deadline only apply to pre-existing companies?
Varying nic levels of the same flavor mix are considered a separate recipe, and I need to submit an ingredient list for every variation? IE, "Strawberry" at 4 different nic concentrations means submitting 4 separate forms? If I have 5 flavors I want to sell, I'd need to file 20 forms?
I need to list not only the ingredients, but the suppliers and their SKUs? What if I get an ingredient from a different source in the future? Do I need to resubmit ingredient lists for each recipe reflecting that?
What if my ingredient suppliers change their formula? Do I need to resubmit ingredient lists for each recipe reflecting that?
Filing the ingredient lists and keeping them updated seems to be the biggest hassle to me. Maybe I'm just over thinking it, though. I'm not looking to start an "eJuice Empire" (although, that would be fantastic), I just want to be able to (legally) help out my friends and their's and not get screwed over in the process.
Does anybody have any experience with this and can point me in the right direction?
Edit: Formatting and such
Who's gonna know if you sell to friends of friends? If you opened an online store it would be different.
Word of mouth sales aren't going to get you in trouble. Unless someone with a lot of time on their hands can prove that you're selling ejuice, catch you in the act, and somehow how get the FDA to give a shit about you selling bottles to a couple friends. Sounds like a lot and sounds unlikely. I think you're ovetthinkjng it.
If you were trying to go legit you'd need lots of money and lawyers. If you were making 20k+ per year, then maybe it would be a problem. Even if you sold to 50 individuals multiple times I doubt anything would happen.
Just keep your supplies clean and your Nicotine fresh so no one has any issues.
I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but they do arrest people for selling cigs, and afaik, juice now falls into the same space. Selling tobacco products without a license/proper taxes. I mean, they'd have to think you're selling drugs or something to really find out, but it's not impossible. If I'm wrong, please tell me how. (I'm not meaning that in an a-hole way. just sincerely)
You're right but I just think it's unlikely and people who sells ciggs illegally usually do out of a storefront or some situation where they have stockpiles of cartons of cigarettes. In this case you can claim personal consumption for anything you might have in your stash for e juice making.
They won't arrest you for selling liquid
I had a friend who lived in a town with a serious heroin problem. When he would sell his friend's juice, he would have them come stop by his house and try various flavors. Obviously, the cops eventually assumed it was a drug house, and he got raided. All of his stuff was seized, and eventually returned after it was verified to be drug free.
My biggest concern is that someone could have an allergic reaction to an ingredient and sue me. Or someone gets sick from something unrelated to my eJuice, and tries to sue me for a quick buck saying that my product is the cause. In either situation, whether I'm at fault or not, the FDA would surely take notice. Now I am in trouble.
Family and close friends aren't my concern. It's the friends of the friends that I worry about. I'm a stay at home dad, selling my eJuice would be a great way for me to make a little money for my family. I'm just trying to figure out if the benefit is greater than the risk. With more costumers, both increase. I'd like to be as legit as possible, so as to keep the risks as low as possible. Making a few hundred only to be fined a few thousand is clearly not worth it.
Don't sell juice to people who leave you wondering whether they're going to sue you. I mean, I think all of this is really common sense, man. Except you're throwing so many "what ifs" into the equation... what if you sold someone an opened bottle of premium juice on r/ecigclassifieds and they got sick and tried to sue you for contaminating it? Maybe they can prove they've used that juice before without problems... then what? What if I rewrapped a battery for someone as a favor and their mod caught on fire the next day? Absurd.
If you want to help your friends out, try giving them some free juice. I don't mind doing that personally because then I get to mix more juice to replace it. If you only like mixing enough to do it for people for profit, then check out a subreddit for entrepreneurs instead of hobbyists.
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Have you considered filing as an LLC (Limited liability corporation)? You can file for a business license to be considered an LLC. Your business will be considered a separate legal entity and any litigation claims associated to your business will be limited to your business assets (flavorings, scales, bottles,undistributed earnings, etc).
Tax consequences: When you file for taxes, you will be considered a sole proprietorship (a pass through entity= no corporate level tax) by default, so you only have to report your earnings and business expenses from selling e liquid on a schedule C with your tax return and pay income tax on those plus self employment tax. This means you need to start book keeping and learn what qualifies as a tax expense, since doing it wrong may lead to an audit, penalties and fines.
Note: by registering as a business, you are notifying your local government that you are an e-liquid manufacturer, and I don't know what the implications of that are.
You don't just fill out new forms for your SKUS. You pay thousands of dollars every time you do it. You can't start an actual company now. Just keep selling to people you know and are comfortable with.
I saw nothing on the FDA site about any amount of money being necessary. Do you have a source for this info?
That's how it is. Every single alteration requires a different SKU submission with payment for that new submission. This doesn't apply to DIY. Stick to selling to who you know. You won't be making a company out of this.
What about mailing ejuice to friends? Is that too risky, or unwise?
Step one: get friends.
My friends vape and they live down the road, but my friends' kids also vape and they live half an hour away. The mother said I can just give her the juice and it will give her kids an excuse to visit their mom, but I was 20-something once and visiting my mom wasn't always the highest priority item on my to-do list.
Not the most sentimental thought on Mother's Day, I know.
So I just recently got into vaping and mixing, and I'd like to be able to save my friends some $$$ and mix them some juice at $1/10ml.
I was thinking of emailing the kids and asking them if they wanted me to just USPS them the juice. Not sure what the issues would be with that. I thought I saw someone here say they shipped juice to their friends, so I was thinking it could be an option, but not sure now after reading this thread.
Does anyone know whether it's cool to USPS e-juice, you know, unofficially in our free enterprise system.
I don't think there's any problem with shipping it, as long as it's sealed and leak proof.
According to the USPS:
>Liquids. Nonhazardous liquids, creams, and pastes (particularly those in 1–gallon paint cans with only friction–top closures) are often a source of damage to other mail and postal equipment. The proper packaging of liquids is critical to ensuring the integrity of the mailpiece during handling.
>All liquids are subject to the general packaging requirements in DMM 601.3.4 and the following:
>Containers having friction–top closures are not acceptable by themselves. Such containers must be packed within a strong and securely sealed outer packaging.
>Screw caps with a minimum of one and one–half turns, soldering clips, or other effective means must be used to ensure a secure closure.
>Glass and other breakable containers more than 4 fluid ounces and any containers over 32 fluid ounces must be cushioned within a sealed, waterproof container such as a can or a plastic bag, and must be packed within a strong and securely sealed outer packaging.
>Steel pails and drums with carrying handles and positive closures (e.g., locking rings or recessed spouts under screw–cap closures) may be accepted without additional packaging.
If you're selling to people close to you (family, close friends) I wouldn't worry about it at all. If friends of friends want to buy some, have them go through your friend if you're really that paranoid about it. Your friend buys from you, your friend's friend buys from your friend.
Think about the scenario that'd have to happen for you to get busted. Do you really think cops are gonna see your friend of a friend vaping some unmarked juice, know what it is and that it's prohibited, arrest your friend, squeeze them in an interrogation room until they rat out your friend, get a warrant to search your friends home, they find something linking you as his supplier, they get a warrant and search your home and find a... DUNNNN DUNNN DUUUUNNNNNNNNNN... a ~~meth~~ ejuice lab? Yes, some laws are stupid and some police would go through all of that for certain things. But nicotine, something that's legal for adults to possess... I'm not so certain they'd go through all that.
But honestly, I wouldn't even worry about that and would have no problem selling directly to friends of friends. It just all seems so unlikely. We're talking about PG, VG, flavoring, and some nicotine here. All these ingredients are legal to possess on their own and when mixed together. This isn't meth, heroin, stolen firearms, counterfeit money, etc, we're talking about.
Now if you want to go beyond family, friends, friends of friends I'd be a little more wary. It just depends I guess.
I'll copy/paste my reply to a different user here since it applies:
>My biggest concern is that someone could have an allergic reaction to an ingredient and sue me. Or someone gets sick from something unrelated to my eJuice, and tries to sue me for a quick buck saying that my product is the cause. In either situation, whether I'm at fault or not, the FDA would surely take notice. Now I am in trouble.
>Family and close friends aren't my concern. It's the friends of the friends that I worry about. I'm a stay at home dad, selling my eJuice would be a great way for me to make a little money for my family. I'm just trying to figure out if the benefit is greater than the risk. With more costumers, both increase. I'd like to be as legit as possible, so as to keep the risks as low as possible. Making a few hundred only to be fined a few thousand is clearly not worth it.
Basically, all it takes is one asshole. Better to cover my ass beforehand.
I personally wouldn't worry about it. I sell to friends and family all the time. I know they aren't going to rat me out or even imply they got it from me in the worst case scenario. Just make sure they are over 18. Unless you have millions of dollars laying around you can't afford to adhere to the regulations.
Worst comes to worst they will give you a slap on the wrist. Just feign ignorance; you didn't know it was against the law or there were regulations against doing it. You would have to be selling in volumes that they would suddenly give a shit about. Which I don't know what that is.
>Unless you have millions of dollars laying around you can't afford to adhere to the regulations.
This here is the reason for this post. People keep saying there are massive cost hurdles to jump, but I've found nothing to support this. There are heaps of paperwork to do, but I haven't seen any application fees listed on any official site.
Do you have any links to official sources stating application fees?
I've only seen second hand remarks about them but did a little digging on the FDA's website and found the following with a source. It appears they barely know the cost either; nor do they seem to give a shit. It appears it does not, indeed, cost a million per flavor but up to 500k, which is much more reasonable.
#Questions on FDA's New Regulations for E-Cigarettes, Cigars, and All Other Tobacco Products
> What are the costs associated with submitting an application?
> The costs associated with submitting an application to market a tobacco product can vary greatly and depend on a number of factors, such as the pathway to market being applied for, the type of tobacco product and the availability of data on the specific product or other similar products. Generally, high costs may come from needing to conduct original research and testing to inform the application, as well as staff time spent compiling it.
> * an SE exemption report = around $1,500
> * an SE report = anywhere from around $3,500 to around $22,700
> * a premarket tobacco application (PMTA) = in the low to mid hundreds of thousands of dollars (around $117,000 to around $466,000), not in the millions of dollars described by some others
Thank you very much!
Thats a lot of factors! This part stood out to me:
>Generally, high costs may come from needing to conduct original research and testing to inform the application, as well as staff time spent compiling it.
I wonder how much of the estimated costs listed are for estimated employee time, materials, etc. I also wonder which report would be necessary for eliquids.
Obviously, a new type of tobacco product would be very expensive to get cleared and take many people, costing a lot of money. But one person just mixing ingredients that are already FDA approved, would probably cost very little. If so, in the case of the "SE" reports, it may cost nothing but materials and my time. Still, I'd love to find solid info on strictly the Application Fees (if any) for submitting these reports.
It's not necessarily only the application fees. The cost comes from all the research involved, and man hours involved in putting together a PMTA that would have any chance of being approved (if the FDA wasn't corrupt and would actually approve any). And that is per SKU, so flavor 1 in 0, 3, 6 would need 3 applications submitted (maybe just one for each flavor I forget).
For me, though, it is all about the application fees. Which is the only thing I'm having a hard time finding a definitive answer about. When I send an application to the FDA, how much money do I send with it?
I'm a stay at home dad. I don't have a lot of money, but I do have plenty of time to devote to this. Manhour cost is moot at this point. I'm not afraid of hours (hundreds, even) of paperwork.
If your selling to family and friends only why would you need to worry about the FDA? There are tons and tons of e-juice companies entering the market every day that are in no way compliant with any FDA regulations. Honestly I think the strategy for most is to do what they are doing for as long as they can before the hammer comes down (if it does) and then dissapear. Only the biggest companies could possibly have the resources to meet current guidelines. There is a new FDA head so that could change things considerably. It is basically a huge industry operating by self regulation and no clear path forward.
The one shot market "no nicotine" is the only safe way you can really enter the market unless you want to sell your recipes to someone else for them to assume as their own product line.
Legally you cannot be protected from liability due to the nature of what you are wanting to sell. You have to be willing to assume a level of risk if you want to profit from what you are doing. Keep in mind that just because your friends might want your juice doesn't mean that demand will exist in the highly saturated competitive e-juice market.
There is a ton of people selling clones of e juice in another reddit sub and i highly doubt they are doing it legally but as said the probability of getting investigated are slim to none.
I would think the $$ needed to become legit is way more than you would be willing to spend.