Hey all! (this will be long, but bear with me!)
So for what feels like longer than I can remember now (at least 6 months), I feel like I've had constant yet varying degrees of vapers tongue. I barely taste the spectrum of what any juice should taste like, if I taste much of anything at all, on a huge range of devices, tanks, RDA's etc. I've done endless research into olfactory fatigue, attempted every 'fix' there is, yet nothing seems to allow me to taste what I should be tasting, what I remember tasting long ago.
This got me thinking. As I've progressed as a vaper, I have followed the almost standard progression from very high PG juices in your small starter kit pen vapes, to your more VG heavy mixes in subohm setups. Even when I got into DIY, I don't think I have mixed anything higher in PG than 70VG/30PG, and one could argue that as of right now, 70/30 is around the most common ratio in general.
We all know PG is the flavour carrier, and 30%PG, by general standards, appears to be more than enough for most people to get great flavour out of juice, but can some people's individual palettes have a huge impact on this? I remember when I was progressing with subohming and began getting into 60/70% VG that I could taste juice fairly well, but to this day nothing has tasted as great to me personally as back when I was a newbie vaper, vaping 50%VG as an absolute maximum. As a test, I've mixed up a couple batches of juice at 50/50 and 60PG/40VG and am waiting for them to steep, and will gladly post back my findings for anyone that may be in a similar situation.
I guess I just wanted to get these thoughts off my chest, and ask, could I really be suffering from vapers tongue for this extreme length of time? I am able to smell just fine, and less importantly taste things other than vape juice just fine. Or can an individual's palette ultimately be a deciding factor in your ability to taste an ejuice? Can an individuals senses just not respond well to higher VG, or alternately, respond well to begin with but 'get used to' over time?
i switched to 60/40 and won't go back
same, except now I'm at 50/50 and I got the same feeling I did when I dropped to 60/40. Plus, its just damn easy to shake quickly.
I'm one who doesn't follow the 70/30 standard for mixing. One of the main reasonings it's become industry standard is because the consumers nowadays want to blow bigger clouds. I personally don't care if the clouds thicker.
What I do want is FLAVOR... I find some juice I mix at 50/50 and some that has more of a throat hit (Lemonades, tobacco's etc) I'll mix at 60/40 to smoothe it out a bit. 70/30 typically is alot more muted to me. The less flavor and throat hit I get, the more of a mental craving I get. So if a juice seems too smoothe or muted, I'll just chain vape all day to try and get my fix.
Your assumptions are correct and I think most DIYers are aware of the ratios, but it's always good to do your own exipimenting and figure out what you like and not just mix out of a textbook.
I agree with you there in that sometimes it's a good idea to move away from the industry standards and experiment. I also find that now I'm making most of my juice at 60/30 rather than 80/20 as I was in the past that I'm now not chain vaping as much in a positive sense. I have grown tired of the amount of horse shit that is actually holding some people back from vaping the way that is best for them as an individual rather than some idiot with the V God t shirt and complyfe cap with the mind of an eight year old.
this seems like an interesting theory. maybe the next batch of juice i make ill make it 60/40 i usually do around 75/25 ill see if that helps with flavor.
vapors tounge for me is weird. i vape the same thing everyday all day. some days my juice is amazing. others its muted to all hell. some days ill wake up and the flavor is muted to all hell and by the end of the day i can taste it full on. other days the opposite. i could better hydrate myself but it doesnt seem to matter for the most part. my drinking habits are roughly the same as far as water/soda ratio and the muted flavor never varies based on hydration. all though i will say having serious cotton mouth does effect the flavor 90 percent of the time. but thats only when i try to vape right after waking up before i drink anything at all.
ive never really tried the remedies ive read online like smelling coffee grounds or eating lemon sorbet. i did try the halls lemon menthol drop remedy though for a short while. it seemed to help but it only extended from the time i finished the cough drop up until cool tingly sensation of the menthol wore off. after that muted flavor came right back.
the only thing that does seem to help is to vape something else. even if for a short while. and for it be polar opposite. my adv is a watermelon menthol jolly rancher. if i take a good number of hits from my capone juice which is a creamy fruit loops FYI then go back to my ADV like 45 mins later my ADV is 100 times better.
Might sound strange but you tried a tongue scraper?
Oh man, so surprised that the first comments on this are all like minded! Thanks for all the input so far guys, so keen for these 50/50 and 60/40 batches to steep and HOPEFULLY breathe some fresh air back into vaping for me, because to be honest, I have been so incredibly disenchanted lately and so convinced for so long that I've just had the world's longest and worst case of vapers tongue.
If you want strong flavour just go 50/50....this is I believe is another reason many people believe that you need crazy builds on a big ass rda to get flavour. 50/50 or 60 /40 on a single stainless steel coil at 20 watts or below in a kaifun or similar will give you the best flavour imaginable.
One thing, don't listen to the flavor % Nazis. People don't seem to undertstand this simple concept- Let's take INW Rhubarb as an example. In one drop of flavor, it may have the same amount of "flavor molecules" as RF Rhubarb does in 50 drops.
So, many people see over 20% and won't mix something, but if your flavorings are less concentrated, what's the difference? >20% flavor =! Over flavored. Remember, some of the biggest juice companies built multi-million dollar businesses on highly flavored juices. Shitty devices aside, people aren't generally supertasters, and some need to be whacked over the head with flavor (me).
~20% flavor & 50/50 has helped tremendously.
More flavor % does not equal more flavor. That's a huge misconception right there. Often it is the other way round, too much % and all gets muted.
Ohh, I completely agree! However, for some people (like myself) I tend to need a higher %. When I started mixing l figured it'd just never taste as good as certain commercial juices. Once I started multiplying recipes by 1.33, I could finally taste. However, my point is about the concentrates themselves, and not to impose an arbitrary % limit. Mix to what tastes good!
By the way, my most flavorful recipe is only 9.75%, but I have many between 18%-23%.
Thanks for the advice man, I've mixed up a few test batches where I've increased my flavour %'s to bring them closer to 20% total and will see how it goes. I think I'm in the same boat where my palette might need more kick than others too. Do you find yourself sticking to the manufacturer's recommended %'s or find yourself having to go over?
Example, it's often recommended with concentrates by FA or INW to not go above 5% due to how concentrated they are, do you often find yourself going over that so you get the flavour you want, or does it truly mute the flavours if you use more than that?
I guess the easy way to explain it- Reading many of the recipes put out by the more well known mixers is equivalent, to me, of being a Southerner versed in the art of the kickin chicken (Wild Turkey) and then going on winery tour in Napa.
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Napa is supposed to be an auto parts store, not some flippity floppity land of hippy grape squashers, so I was tricked on that.
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No Mr. Frenchy Sommelier, I can't taste how that 0.5% of Almond allows the fruit to "fold into", "sit inside of", or "anchors the top note to the base". And that's exactly why I mix to my taste buds, not wonder why I can't taste the 0.6% of hazleneut that's supposed to turn my 1% of fresh cream into a milkshake.
More in line with your question, it's not exactly using a really strong concentrate that high, but more often increasing the whole recipe by 25% or 30%, for example if a recipe has 10% total, I may take it to 13% across the board. I will say though, if there is a really pronounced flavor or additive in a recipe, I may not increase that particular ingredient.
As far as flavor muting, that seems to happen when I go over 20% AND HAVE LIKE 8+ FLAVORS. Again, depending on the individual concentrates, but take a recipe like WhiteGremlin. 3 ingredients, 20% flavor, and taste for days. It steeps well, flavor doesn't die off, just down-right good. OTOH, I've made several recipes from here that are 10 ingredient mushy messes after a week. The only time that seems not to apply is when someone uses say 2 or 3 fruits for one fruit flavor. E.g. 2 strawberries + dragonfruit, or 3 creams and 2 corresponding bakeries. Those seem to be fine. (Pebbles is the exception! It's great, clean and always tasty)
I'm about 3 months into vaping and 2 months into what can only explained as a case of vaper's tongue. I've spent humble amounts of money, though money I can't really afford, on RTAs, RDTAs, coil wire, and DIY juice supplies thinking I've been messing up somewhere along the line.
As a relatively inexperienced vaper I've nothing really to add but I'd be very interested to learn the outcome of your experiments with less VG in the mix and I'll try this myself in my next batch.
One thing has crossed my mind, I've always been a fan of strong flavours and a ridiculous amount of spice in my food, mostly because flavours fade quite quickly. I'd make myself something very spicy and full of flavour and have to add more chilli's before I finished the plate. I've been wondering if that's either a similar thing, or a cause of this damned affliction.
On a lighter note I now have a collection of shiny tanks, the ability to spread the love to my friends with free juice and an obsession with vaping. Thanks tongue (nose).
I've noticed that vaper's tongue is cured most effectively by having several juices in rotation. PG/VG ratios seem to have little effect on helping me out. I've tried the same recipe both in 50/50 for MTL and 80/20 for DL and it makes no difference.
My rotation atm is a caramel tobacco and strawberry cream. They're different enough from each other to alleviate the fatigue.
Regarding vaper's tongue, I believe something that might have to do with it (but that I almost have never seen discussed anywhere) is how much airflow you get on your tongue and the type of cap you use. I've tried 10 different RDA's and have notice that top and middle airflow seem to be worse than the bottom air flow. I can feel the air blowing more directly onto my tongue and I have noticed my mouth getting 'dry' quickly, feeling like vaper's tongue. This mutes my tastes buds afterwards. Same thing regarding drip tips and chuff caps. I've notice that metal and glass work really well for keeping flavor intact, but when I use something plastic the flavor is muted. Kindof how a drink tastes abit different if you use a different cup or glass. My favorite RDA at the moment is the original Freakshow by Wotofo in plain stainless steel. It has a pretty wide diameter cap all the way to the top with a heat sink. I use it without a drip tip! At the top there is a heat sink that keeps the metal relatively cool to the touch and it creates an amazing flavor and cloud productions and I have never gotten 'vaper's tongue' using it this way. If I switch to something else, I will get vapoe's tongue and muted flavors. One exception: The Melo III mini that came with my eLeaf Pico is also fantastic for a clearomizer. I find it does the job and provides decent flavor, never got vaper's tongue with it either. I also make 80/20 VG/PG and usually under 10% flavoring.
I'm fairly new to diy but before I went down this route I tried several store bought juices and my favourite to date was a banana custard the was 60vg/40pg. I find pg makes my throat very sore (maybe I have a slight intolerance?) but since I switched to diy I've been knocking up the standard 70/30 ratio. I have found flavour to be somewhat lacking tho and as a result I whipped up a banana custard of my own at 60/40. I'll let it steep a week or two and return with my results