Saw a document\post regarding a lawsuit between NICOPURE (a maker of synthetic nicotine) vs. the FDA. It seems to state the FDA has come to the conclusion or ruling that synthetic nicotine is not\can not be considered a tobacco product.
Am I reading this right? This could be very good for us all. Link between
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2016/12/15/898116/0/en/Statements-From-FDA-in-NICOPURE-vs-FDA-Lawsuit-Confirm-Next-Generation-Labs-TFN-NICOTINE-Is-Not-A-Tobacco-Product.html
Most of what I've seen, speculate that if the FDA doesn't classify it a tobacco product then it would regulate it as a drug, which is actually even stricter regs
It is not on the drug schedule list of the DEA. It is unlikely that nicotine or tobacco will ever be a scheduled drug.
The FDA regulates nicotine already if it is being marketed as a medical device. Nicotine being used in e-liquid, which doesn't fall under medical devices (per the 2009 ruling) but falls under tobacco -- however in this case it doesn't when it's synthetic -- so at the moment they have no way to regulate it unless a new law is passed by the legislature to give the FDA authority to regulate nicotine as it's own substance independent of the 2009 tobacco law.
I'm sure the FDA is trying to find any way it can to possibly regulate it, but it sounds like some of their wording that they thought they were being clever with is unraveling in court.
If non tobacco e-liquid is not a component because it is reasonable not intended to be used with a tobacco product (because it's not) then it doesn't fall under their regulations. This would also mean separate components like mods and atties then are called into question, (not self contained AIO systems that come prefilled with a tobacco product) because if all nicotine containing e-liquid commercially produced switched to synthetic and there was no longer separate components being used "with tobacco" then what do they do? The intended and reasonable assumption then is that all atties and mods sold separate from tobacco derived e-liquid, is not intended to be used with a tobacco product.
Of course none of this will matter if things get overturned with the new administration.
Oh shit...more good news in the fight to save tons of businesses across the country.
Would be really awesome if synthetic could be switched out for what is currently being used and completely loophole the FDA.
Now wait a sec... Just to sell only stuff like Pyrex and Silicone to customize tanks. I still have to report those items as Tobacco Products because they are vape related.
The list of items in the deeming regs are very overreaching.
Believe me when I say that if the FDA will regulate the synthetic if it is a problem for them. If you find a loophole it will not last long with the FDA. If you have read the deeming regs you will see that they are covering all angels that could possibly save the vape industry.
At the current rate the only vape stuff I see in a few years will be big tobacco's cigalikes and people in DIY that can get nic illegally once they start making people register to even get the nic.
(edit: or people who stockpile. Lol)
#vapepocalypse
yes like new empty atomizer or mod say "this product contains nicotine..."
eh.....
It's basically a surrealistic baseless statement tag linked to tobacco warnings, as many vape 0 nic juice.
Also nic patches have just "good luck" with a smiley face. Maybe they can be sued for a baseless advertising warning, truth is that there is not any nicotine what-so-ever in a mod or atomizer. There will always be speakeasies if big tobacco get hold of this to put additives in it.
Yeah man, I'm getting quite worried about what our ability will be to obtain nicotine in the future. I don't really want to have to go to the black market to do so. I live close to Mexico, so I'm sure shops would pop up all over selling it, but I'm used to the trusted brands and quality we currently can't obtain. I don't want to have to subject myself to sketchy ways of obtaining nicotine that could potentially be contaminated or produced in less than adequate facilities.
What kills me is all of the BS about bands on vape equipment and accessories; yet you can walk into any head shop or smoke shop and buy a bong that's clearly going to be used to smoke illegal drugs... but they market it as a "tobacco water pipe" for tobacco use. Why can't we market vape gear as incense, or oil fragrance burners? Or portable humidifiers made you put water in? Or every box mod comes with a 510 light bulb attachment and we market it as a variable power flashlight?
Oh, That would be a definite loophole. You could simply call a mod something else and sell it with no problem.
The problem lies with advertising when you use that loophole. Getting customers when no one knows to search for fragrance burners would be the problem.
Black market will be available, no doubt about that. tens of thousands of people are capable of making diy box mods for their friends and acquaintances. It can never be a full time job again without allot of risk at that point.
I am sure when it comes to that, they will find a way to bust people for flashlights designed to be an ENDS device. If they are banning Silicone Orings that are vape related then it isn't that far of a stretch.
On their site, I did not find a way to directly purchase TFN.
The manufacturer says that e-liquids that use TFN would not be classified as a tobacco product, which makes perfect sense.
The FDA's statements about intent could classify a finished mix using TFN as a tobacco component or something related or meant to be used in vaping.
FDA definitions are so wide in scope and so ambiguous that it is impossible to know for sure. If a battery or a mod is considered to be 'tobacco', then what is not 'tobacco'? Common sense does not apply.
Certainly a solid case could be made that a mod and atomizer using an e-liquid with TFN has nothing to do at all with tobacco.
Nicopure is not the maker of the synthetic nic, Next Generation Labs is, and they do not seem at all associated with Nicopure (the people actually in court with the FDA.)
YOu can't buy the synthetic nicotine being produced by Next gen labs unless you are an ISO900 lab ( I think that is what it said in an email someone got from them.) You have to be like Wizard Labs or one of the other nicotine suppliers to actually get their pure nicotine product to cut down into usable nicotine for DIYers (100mg or less)
So we will likely see it coming out in the next few months, but don't expect it to be cheap. It will likely be triple what we pay for tobacco derived nicotine.
Hiliq is selling supposed synthetic nic from China (so who knows what it is) for $50 a 100ml.
Wait what? So nicotine base prices will increase?
No we still have tobacco derived nicotine on the market at this point available to us DIYers. If it eventually comes to a point where synthetic were the only thing available then yes, nicotine prices would be significantly higher than what they are now.
This is not the panacea we all want it to be.
The FDA will wait until the grace period has passed, and then enact regulation on this as a drug and everything will still require pre market approval before it can be sold.
Sadly our only hope commercially at this point is action from Congress. Maybe executive order could do it, but that can change in an instant with the next election.
Call your congress critters.
Yes and no. Truth is that there is no panacea. If this administration and congress 'saves' the industry, it doesn't mean that opponents will just drop their toys and go home. The unregulated honeymoon is over, it will be a constant and long fight all the way to the end.
If you squeeze the juice out of a lemon, and make lemon juice with 0.6 % it is not a lemon product.
O M G
Good lawyers would make simple arguments. I for myself do not want more synthetics.
Organic nicotine should not be the reason for a tobacco-plant product, taxed and regulated initially only for its by-product health concerns when burned.
Vape does not fit that taxation: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e-cigarettes-an-evidence-update
Evidence, not "maybe".
I do not want to drink synthetic caffeine, because some other retard smokes coffee-beans rolled in paper.
Good info. I myself am open to the idea of synthetic nicotine. Mostly for the fact that I think it could quite possibly taste better (no unwanted peppery flavor) and have more longevity, possibly not oxidizing as much or as quickly.
I wouldn't want to see traditional natural nicotine go away obviously. But it would be good to have a choice between the two and see what the advantages or disadvantages could be performance wise and health wise.
I really hope this is the case. We need to differentiate all Ecig products from Big Tobacco!
Exactly. But without more chemical-synthetics. If vape is a tobacco product then tobacco-plant products should be a arsenic and benzene product. What I think we should fight for is to communicate that vape is lesser nicotine in percentage that anything else. Maybe max 0.12 % these days. Nicotine (extracted) in so small percentages in itself should not be a tobacco product, like the plant itself. Maybe e-juice only.
This is just like the DEA trying to classify CBD as a level one drug 😕
Thats absurd. It basically is not herb at all, and even med. herb is legal in most states? Many just put out scare stories, and what they tried was not CBD but THC. Anyhow, you will be able to get CBD liquid from Europe or of course DIY. Sometimes I wish the packaging of these juices would be much more discrete, and not weed plant all and "420" or something on it. I like this: http://www.deaflavor.com/it/liquidi-sigaretta-elettronica/liquid-herbs-20ml/dea-relax
And yes, the company is called "DEA". lol. But they make no nicotine flower-plant herb juice. Maybe they should make a CBD one.