EDIT: This project has facilitated a lot of discussion, both positive and negative. I have to say it's partially my fault for attempting to poke the beehive. Wayne has personally reached out to me and we've both agreed that it's unnecessary to shit on anyone's rice bowl. I will stand by what I said to Wayne earlier, he has done a lot for this community and I'm sure he still has a lot more to offer.
As for the project, this is what I've decided to do. I will continue submitting flavorings to this sub-reddit (as I'm currently doing at the moment). However, as you will notice, this flavorings are not necessarily in-depth (well, I personally don't think it's detailed enough) so each and every one of my flavorings will be stripped down, embellished in certain areas and compiled into a downloadable PDF for your reading pleasure.
It will be similar to HIC's flavoring list but it won't be restricted to one flavor vendor. In the meantime, I hope you guys enjoy the reviews! Keep on mixing!
In light of a popular DIY-ers decision to close access of his flavoring book and reserve it for members only, I have decided to take on a new project.
To start a flavoring book, which documents more than a hundred different flavorings from different flavor companies. It will be an ongoing project, updated weekly or bi-weekly, open to everyone.
More importantly, the content will be entirely free. There will be no membership fees, no monthly subscription of any kind and no plans of monetizing any of this. This is my hobby and my passion and I refuse to take money from fellow DIY-ers.
But before I take on this arduous project, I have a few questions. This questions will help me understand what you look for in a flavoring book. And ultimately, help me to deliver a better final product to you.
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What format would you prefer? Should it be downloadable? PDF? Google doc? Would you prefer not to download it? Why? Should I just keep it entirely on this sub-reddit?
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What flavorings are you looking forward to? Would you like to see more Flavor West? Inawera? Your answers will help me to determine what flavorings are worth reviewing. (Due to geographical location, I can only review TFA, INW, FW, FA and HS.)
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What do you look for in a review? Do you want someone who waxes poetic sentences and describes the taste in vivid detail? Or is it better to be straightforward and concise?
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Is there anything else I should include in a flavoring book? Aside from generic reviews, should there be anything exciting (Hidden gem of the month, flavors to look out for, etc.)
At the moment, I have more than 15 flavorings steeping in my closet. You can most definitely forward to more flavor reviews in the coming weeks. And more importantly, let's keep DIY independent. Much love.
I feel like the Flavor Review Wiki in this subreddit addresses that need pretty well. Would be interesting to have something outside of reddit too I suppose
Best of all, the flavor review wiki here allows people to comment on it so if their experiences differ, you get to read about those experiences in the comments, rather than just getting one mixer's opinion on a concentrate.
We already have a wonderful flavor book right here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/wiki/index/flavor_reviews
Thanks to terrific folks like YOURSELF, /u/CheebaSteeba, /u/wh1skeyk1ng, /u/Chrisdvr1, /u/ConcreteRiver, /u/RuntDastardly, /u/Kirkt, /u/myep0nine, /u/bobbysavage, /u/chewymidget, /u/mysticrosell, /u/sixfivelive, /u/LiquidIce25, /u/Claptonburns, /u/TexasHex, /u/mysticrosell, /u/wafflepriest1, /u/bigbruise, /u/Jigsaw314, /u/cyantaco, /u/keed_spills, /u/helloiamyourpeepaw, /u/T_Mace, /u/skiddlzninja, /u/HashSlingingSlashur, /u/cswindz, /u/Twistedfexer, /u/VAPORMARK, /u/Lambroghini, /u/otsismi, /u/InfinityFractal, /u/Tamachicken, /u/SONDERvape, /u/Eizooz, and a few others.
Which is why I couldn't care less about whether someone put his flavor book behind his paywall. I don't see the need for what you're planning to do and I hope you'll continue to post your flavor reviews here.
Edit: added a few more fabulous flavor reviewers. I really appreciate all of the work they put into these flavor reviews.
The /r/DIY_ejuice flavorbook is the best thing to happen to this sub. It's easily the best resource any vaping forum has created and I love the push to keep providing free information from great mixers in it.
A quick response to /u/thedirtyprojector. I think everyone could benefit from another "flavor book" and I applaud you on taking that on. I don't understand the disrespect but you're entitled to your opinion. All the best.
Edit: also the flavorbook on my website has always been for members only. It wasn't recently "closed off".
Darren Cole used to write flavoring reviews every week. It was freely available to everyone in the Facebook group. You privatised that too by asking him to write for your membership service. I can see why you did that but I personally feel its way too much. You are selling concentrates, lessons, flavoring books, recipe creation, cloning and more. Where does it stop when you invite a fellow DIY to keep his reviews under lock and key?
I mean no disrespect but you're the one who's always claiming to be independent and free from any monetary constraints but it seems you are going down that same route.
> I mean no disrespect
You absolutely mean disrespect. You're overshadowing the amount of work I do in this small community for absolutely nothing because of a small fee I charge for members who enjoy my work. Need I remind you I cemented my career in the DIY industry. I didn't create a juice line and cash out like the DOZENS of mixers that started here but are no where to be seen these days (seriously? Where are they? I know why they're not here anymore). I stuck with DIY because I believed in what I was doing. Even with the amount of disrespect I've received in this sub reddit. Darren was ecstatic when I ASKED HIM if he wanted to move his reviews off of Facebook where he felt his reviews were taken for granted. I understand if you don't feel my content is worth your $3, but I'm not going to let you shit on what I've done for this community.
Why do you care so much about what he charges for? He has put a lot of work into the DIY community. Recipes, teaching, providing info, etc. Yet people shit on him because god forbid someone makes a little bit back on the work they do that happens to be something they enjoy doing. Nobody is forcing you to pay for those services you listed. If Darren Cole wants to write for him, that's his business. If you think the community is in dire need of yet another resource on flavors, then put the work into it and make it. It's a lot of work, though, with little appreciation. So if it is something you really want to do, have fun.
Isn't it? We need to do a better job of promoting it here -- I'm afraid that people might not even be aware that it exists, which is sad because it is such a great resource. Maybe you calling it the best thing to happen to this sub will help. Thanks, Wayne!
It got promoted fairly well when it started getting put together. Then 1 person whined that there were too many reviews cluttering up the front page. Reviewing stopped for a while, but has recently started to pick back up again. I think many of our newer users are unaware that it exists because they have yet to familiarize themselves with the wiki. I might have to start including a link to it at the bottom of my reviews and persuading others who do reviews to do the same.
I second all of this. The flavor review wiki has come a LONG way and is really starting to fill in with excellent reviews from the popular manufacturers of concentrates. It is a very useful source of flavor information. If anyone sees they have something that isn't listed in the wiki, feel free to grab a source format and submit one or two!
Wasn't Wayne's flavor book always members only? Like from the beginning? A small part of it was shown to anyone but the full review was only visible with a membership. Plus, /u/enyawreklaw originally wanted to put so much more into that flavor book back when there wasn't really anything like that available, save for maybe HIC's Flavourart reviews and a handful of random threads over the years all over the Internet, yet he couldn't keep up with it weekly like he wanted to cuz dude was crazy busy with all the rest of the content he was putting out. No one was forcing anyone to pay for that stuff and someone would've done a flavor book a long time ago if it was so needed.
That aside, any flavor book available to the public is a great idea, being downloadable would help in offline situations. But in reality the best flavor book is the one you create yourself, for yourself..
Wow, you have quite the colorful history. To the point to where you actually made a public apology for being a dickhead so you wouldn't get down-voted as often. What I don't understand is why you are all of a sudden interested in helping other people. You never seemed to be before.
http://imgur.com/a/ElKJy
No one should do something they are good at for free, and simply put, Wayne's content is the best.
It's kind of sad that you resorted to screenshotting posts from my history (over a duration of few months) to reinforce your point. I have been nothing but helpful and nice after posting the thread.
I have shared recipes on here. I do Flavor reviews from time to time. I post frequently on the new mixers thread. So it's terribly unfair for you to say "you never seem interested to help before".
Anyway that was never the point of this post. But good detective work, I guess.
Sad?
This post and your history shows you are just another one of the entitled kids who wants another handout.
lol. Ok vurve. You're entitled to your opinion. If we really combed through each and every single persons Reddit account on this subreddit, I'm sure you would find some interesting things too. But I guess some of us have more important things to do. Thanks
I'm not here to stroke Wayne's ego or discredit what you're saying here, I'm here to give some potential insight into the shift of DoD from the perspective of a fellow small business owner. You know I respect the fuck out of you as a mixer and as a member of this community. I guess this is just a little devil's advocate.
So, while some people may complain about what Wayne offers behind a paywall, or that the Darren Cole situation seems shady, there are also countless people that want to support what Wayne does for the community in a monetary fashion. People have suggested that Wayne create a Patreon, or any of the other forms of crowdfunding. And from the perspective of a business owner, I can see the reason for avoiding a Patreon. And actually, in a way, what Wayne is already doing with DoD is what he'd get out of Patreon, just without the middle man.
Instead of just letting people donate to Wayne for what he does, he's giving them a product that has real value. Whether it be the mixing lessons, the content behind the membership, etc, these are products that people are choosing to purchase with their $3 subscriptions. Sure, the Darren Cole thing might rub some people the wrong way, understandable. But from a business standpoint, you see someone that is producing excellent content that would fit well within a business, you're gonna pick that person up to work with you. Remove Darren from the equation, there is still probably a significantly greater wealth of knowledge from the sub and the Facebook group that is STILL and always will be available for free. Wayne simply seems to be providing more content for the same price of his subscription, while cutting out a lot of the bullshit from the past.
I feel like I'm rambling now and I'm sorry, I wanted to give my opinion and I feel like I'm not saying much anymore. Blah. Anxiety has been bad today.
Oh one more point. Look at it like this also, and this is comparing shit to my business. I've been running my store for nearly five years now. And I've got plenty of people that think I should do what I do for cheaper or for free because I should "love doing it" or whatever. While what I do is different in a sense from what Wayne does, the same mentality applies. You provide a service for a community of people, if they want to pay for that service, then let them. If they don't want to, they aren't losing or gaining anything with that decision. Same goes here. Pay for Wayne's content and you get the viewpoints and opinions he provides. If you don't want to pay, you still have a bunch of shit to benefit from for free. DoD is growing, Wayne just seems to be trying to keep growing with it and continue to keep it fresh.
Fair enough, you ain't rambling at all. I read everything and found myself nodding in agreement. Like I said, I think the whole Darren situation just rubbed me the wrong way. I shouldn't have even brought up the subscription thing to begin with. There's no denying how much he has done for the community. Thankfully, Wayne was the bigger man and reached out to me on Facebook. Also, thanks for shedding your perspective on this, Matt. Always looking forward to your recipes and musings.
I'm new to this game, I found DIYorDie /u/enyawreklaw on Google search, was the 1st one I came across.Which lead me to other resources such as here. He is the Biggest reason why I am smoke free for almost a month now. /u/thedirtyprojector I enjoy your content as well. I am glad you guys hashed things out. With the FDA/Govt. cracking down on the vaping industry. We will be all that we have soon! Sticking together and supporting each other is what will keep us strong and vaping everlasting.
I think simple, easy to read reviews are better than waxing poetic. You can still be detailed. And I love the format we're seeing lately that can be found in the Modest Monday post on reviewing flavors. I use that format too and feel it's an easy to read, quick to digest format with no fluff.
If you keep it on reddit it'll be easy access for everyone. Maybe make a separate site too if you feel it's necessary.
My 2 cents.
Mmmm this could just be a subreddit where only mods can add posts (flavours) and users comment.
What's the advantage of that tho? Do you find the user submitted reviews on this sub lacking? I think the fact that anyone can review allows us to cover more ground. I don't see many poorly done reviews go up. If someone is willing to take the time to post, chances are they're serious enough about mixing to do a pretty good job.
/u/thedirtyprojector , First off, apologies from Automoderator, he thought you were asking for help. Nice thing about bots is they tend to treat everyone equally.
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I prefer an online outlet that gets updated with the latest and greatest. Downloadable/offline use is nice too, but requires space and updates. I think an option for either/or would be nice, but someone could always copy/paste online into their own database too. Kind of comes down to user preference and how much work you want to do for people who aren't contributing to the cause.
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Specific flavors don't really matter, but one thing that I think would be neat, but rather difficult as I have tried to do this myself, is to have a group of samples and compare them all to each other. For instance a bunch of different "limes" or "sweet cream" flavors. I tried this and they all ended up tasting too similar after about 2 of them, so I kind of gave up. Good luck with that if you decide to do comparisons.
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Main thing about reviews is to keep personal opinions like "this flavor is terrible" or "this tastes so good" out of it. Straightforwardness is nice, but sometimes an offbeat vivid description like "reminds me of my grandmother's perfume as she laid in her casket" helps keep the reader in tune.
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Include a table of contents (of sorts) that links you to where you are going, and a credits section. Maybe an occasional handcheck. (jk)
https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/wiki/index/flavor_reviews
I don't really understand the want or need to take on this project trust me it is a massive undertaking. Even with the help of all the other members of the sub we haven't even come close to completing the wiki
- Downloadable PDF would be best
- More INW would be nice, they have a lot of weird underrated flavorings people don't usually try that may be bangers. Usually when other companies can't nail a flavor, Inawera gets it right.
- Straightforward notes is best IMO. I'd rather have "this is a ripe sweet candy-like strawberry" than "this is a decadent strawberry picked fresh from the Himalayan mountains topped with a fresh tear from Jesus himself". This way people know what to really expect before purchasing the flavor.
- Hidden gem of the month is a great idea. The "extras" you add into the book will set it apart from other flavor review compilations. Also maybe you could add in a specific pairing for a flavor so people know what is good to mix with.
The wiki on the subreddit is already really useful, but if you can add to it and make it more portable so to speak it wouldn't be a bad idea. Thanks for the hard work man! If this becomes reality I know I'd use it a lot, HIC's FA notes is something I look at quite a bit.
I am for this idea, I feel this is what keeps people motivated and inspired to come up with new mixes. Myself being new to DIYing appreciate all the help,time, and comradery we share here. Having Multi-Platforms available & having varieties keep things from becoming stale.
I would also like to address Charging fees subscriptions, and monetizing. ATF (All the flavors) has a 3 way payment plan, pretty affordable. It has a mass of recipes stored private or public.Has its own mixing calculator and is constantly being developed.
DiYorDie Wayne Walker has become somewhat of a household name in The E_Juice DiY genre. He create content via: website,podcasts,youtube, and discord chat app/program.
He however does charge a fee 3.00 a month to become a member.You get earlier released info and documentation on just about anything DiY Mixing and other things.Does he Monetize, yes he has mention he had got a check for 30 or 40 some dollars, which is nothing compared to some on youtube. Do he have the right absolutely 100%. I can assure you he is not in it for fame and money, only if he got paid for how many time he said the F-Word would he be a millionaire. I believe in my heart he does it cause he cares, has mad passion for the vaping industry and doesn't ever want to see it fade away.
ELR & REDDIT free have many similar things to all the mentioned above. You can come here post free recipes, get free sound advise, and meet a variety of people that are constantly changing our minds on how we think when it comes to mixing.
With that all being said, the final decision is ours', we decide whether or not to click the subscribe button, to revisit a site such as this,to donate to a cause or a fellow DIYer. Whether its to pay for his/hers website or plain and simple their time they take to publish the material they release. Free or Not its really up to them.
/u/thedirtyprojector anything you do come up with I am sure it will benefit the community. I appreciate you and the rest here that donate time out of your days to making DIYin more fun.
In closing I would like to thank everyone who has ever helped another advance in the Diyin Game.
Sorry for long post, bad grammar, spelling or what not. I tried my best to express my personal opinion and feeling on the matter
First of all I applaud your idea, if it becomes effort then I applaud that. The world needs more of these, if you can actually provide good, accurate, concise, and useful content then go for it. I also applaud your will to keep it free for all... BUT, there is literally no need to tear down anyone else for charging for anything. I do not pay for his service but for the amount of content he provides he is not charging enough.
If you want to start a collaborative effort, I imagine either a fully-fledged community wiki like wikia or a collaborative publishing platform like gitbook could work pretty well.
I feel like there's a lot of data out there (e.g. the Notes for a Flavor @ e-liquid-recipes.com) that would be valuable as well. Maybe aggregating (or just cross-linking) further readings like that would help me too.
Come to think of it, data mining this sub (and/or e-liquid-recipes) could yield some very interesting results as well....
We're about to do some data mining in r/mixersclub starting this month.
I won't explain the whole concept behind the club, and we've only been around since September, but I'm really excited about one particular idea.
We're going to be featuring a flavor each month, per group, and groups consist of 4-5 people. We're all using the same testers (so same age of sample, same percent, until we choose to feature another percent) using standardized builds, standardized criteria (how the flavors are reviewed). We've only had one or two groups per month (only been doing it since September) but I'm really excited about being able to collect tons of data in about as standardized a format as possible for something as subjective as flavor reviews. Reviewing is a requirement of participating, so the feedback is guaranteed, we haven't had any issues with people not following guidelines. Many reputable DIYers will be modding for us starting in January, and have been participating since its inception.
Anyone is welcome to analyze the data we'll be collecting.
Looking forward to this. Flavor notes should always be free :) After all, I've read a zillion times the "taste is subjective" thing. That would certainly apply to flavor notes, but it's interesting to read others experiences with flavors to see the similarities and differences with my own experiences.
Edit: To answer your questions...
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Any form of media is fine, but a PDF would be nice.
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All of the above flavor brands you mentioned.
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Be straightforward and concise.
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If possible, it would be nice for the notes to include whether the flavor is known for any Diacetyl, etc. It's not particularly important for me as I'm familiar with a lot of flavors already, but for those that don't know, it might be good info. Though that's easy enough to find out with a little research.
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