TL:DR - Tobacco heads can't very well go out and taste real world tobacco blends because we've all quit. So how do you decide what goes with what? Now please read my full inquiry you lazy bastard (dick swinging for posterity of course).
First, matthew, if you're reading this, I am in no way undermining your approach. In fact, I very much appreciate your contributions to this sub and learn a great deal from them. So thank you.
Now to the reasons:
- Most mixes can go in 1 of 4 categories.. fruits, desserts, baked goods, or tobacco. Yes, there are combinations of the 4 that blur the lines and there's also some others like fucking bacon (umami?), but basically it's those 4. And 3 of them are food, which we can all relate to, and go out and try the real world equivalents of. Tobacco, on the other hand, is (for most of us) a distant memory that we romanticize in our vaping rituals. The more time passes, the less I know what tobacco actually tastes like. And when I did smoke, I didn't pay any attention to the flavors, I just wanted my nicotine.
Since most of us aren't willing to actually taste real tobacco, we're left with a only a few options..
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read tons of flavor reviews and hope the reviewer knows what they're talking about
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read real tobacco reviews and learn about the characteristics of individual varieties of tobacco and then try to intuit how this might translate in the vape realm, then refer back to my previous bullet point anyway
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smell real tobacco and make your mixes based on that
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make some NETs or buy some but even then, it's still gonna be what tobacco smells like (and maybe tastes like) before it's a burning stick of cancer
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yes I do all these things, I think the adventures of trying to concoct an analog cig flavor are possibly more fun than actually vaping it once I succeed
So it's kind of a strange pursuit really. Us tobacco heads become more like impressionist painters who also are in the process of forgetting what everything looks like.
I know why I love my tobacco vapes though. It is partly just romanticism, but more than that, I like bitter things.. black coffee, dark chocolate, cognac, yo mama, etc. From what I recall, tobacco was in that category of flavor. I don't have much of a sweet tooth when it comes to vaping either, I'll take a puff or two of some nice custard something-or-other but any more than that and I'll be craving my "memoirs of tobacco" taste again.
So to summarize my ramblings here, I'm curious, how do the rest of you tobacco heads conceptualize your mixes? Is there something I'm missing, or do you just trial and error your way to something that half resembles the good ol smoking days?
Here's some relatable flavors I strive to cram into a tobacco mix..
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ash
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smokiness
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wood
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leather
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leafy
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raisins
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nuts (walnut maybe faint peanut)
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no (or very little) sweetness
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bitter - like how coffee is bitter but enjoyable, not bitter like chewing a dandelion (yes, I did chew a dandelion when I was about 10.. ok fine, it was this afternoon whatever.)
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throat hit - mostly comes from the nic of course but DNB and other flavs I use add to it
Final note: I've observed since delving into diy tobacco mixing that cigarette smokers (like me) generally don't know shit about tobacco, whereas pipe and cigar smokers were much more analytical about their smoking and have a way better understanding of how each variety of leaf is supposed to taste and how they should be blended.
Ok, /rant. If you made it this far in reading, you're probably a tobacco head. Chime in! Cheers.
Great points in here! Glad you made this honestly, because I do feel like I forget about the tobacco heads in my posts, save for my oddly successful Applebacco recipe.
So I've been diving into tobaccos lately and my next purchase will be loads of different concentrates so that I can do a pretty extensive tobacco inspired Modest Monday/BB Podcast in the near future.
So the issue I've had, honestly, is that I more or less want to vape a liquid that tastes like how tobacco smells. So my Applebacco recipe came about by just going to a tobacco shop and smelling some of the lighter blends until I could pick up on some of those nuances wrapped up in the overall tobacco and earthy base. I wish that smoking tasted the same as smelling tobacco, but to me, it just does not. The closest I've ever gotten to it tasting like it smells was by rolling my own cigs without a filter. Or smoking out of a pipe.
As with /u/bobbysavage , I will occasionally still have a smoke every now and then. The other week I bought a pack of American Spirit Blacks because that's the next recipe I'll be focusing on. I still love these bad bitches, especially with the cooler seasons approaching, and I want to recreate it in an eliquid.
So either way, my go to ways of getting tobacco inspiration simply consist of smelling fresh tobacco or smoking every now and then. There's a distinct difference in flavour between say a Marlboro 27 and a Lucky Strike, and you can definitely find those "like" flavours to compare when trying to come up with a recipe.
Red lucky strike were THE ONLY pre-made cigarettes I could actually smoke (and enjoyed) I only had issues with them during summery hot days when they used to make me cough. 99% of my smoking carrer I spend rolling my own without filter. I usually preferred dark tobaccos Like blue drum or old Holborn
I'm a little scared of smoking any kind of real tobacco. Just don't want to open that door. I tend to do what you do which is create recipes that taste how tobacco smells. Then I dump in a bunch of Dirty Neutral Base and call it a day.
My ADV is reminiscent of rolled tobacco. Never got close to a Marlboro, Camel or any of the other mainstream brands. I find they're somehow very acidic or something (from memory of course) and I've been unable to reproduce that flavor. I've also never tasted any commercial e-juice that comes close to tobacco flavor, they all just suck. And I've tried several, not saying it's not out there, but most commercial e-liquid shines in the food category and fails horribly at tobacco. Which is odd to me.
Anyway, looking forward to reading your findings on baccy. Cheers.
I actually do smoke occasionally (very rarely) for various reasons.
Normally it's like a cpl drags off a friends for science or a cigar every now and then. I fucked up and bought a pack last week from stress/geographical location/dead batteries.
I didnt want to keep smoking more though after I had charged batteries. To me: Cigarettes really taste how they smell when they are being freshly burned (for the most part). I grew up with that smell my whole life excluding the last 2years, and every time I take a drag it always tastes like how growing up smelled ( freshly burning cigs) If that makes sense.
Its kind of hard to describe what burning tobacco leaves/flavoring cocktail/shit tobacco companies use, actually tastes like.
To quote Lucky Strike, "It's toasted" I definitely tasted pyrazines in the pack of Spirits I bought the other day along with the actual taste of burning paper/tobacco, and that indescribable, robust, hardy, almost woody like plant flavor (along with a slight ashy/tar/musky(?) aftertaste), of whatever it is I was smoking.
So far, creating the taste of burning tobacco has been the hard part. I can get fresh tobacco which satisfies but the burning bit seems impossible.
I've not experimented with adding AP to my mixes except with RY4. Maybe at super low percent AP could lead to something interesting in my analog mix. Will try.
Yea that seems to be everyone's problem :)
It's hard to do. Emulated yes. However Tobacco has its own mouth feel which I find kind of dry/acrid if i analyze it. Slightly oxidized nic and 50/50 PG/VG helps to emulate it. Thats really hard to reproduce precisely though
The smell of burning cigarettes is also so powerful it will reek up the smoker's body, house, car, hair, and respiratory system.
I dont think we have tobacco flavors that potent/palatable at the same time.
You dont have AP and I dont have DNB haha fuck this shit I quit :P The good thing is both are so potent they should last a long time.
seriously going on a year for a 10ml bottle of 5%AP that i try to use often.
You got me to thinking, I find INW Cuban TA drys out the mix really well. If you have it, worth messing with.
Deeeefinitely pick up DNB if you feel you're lacking that ashy note. Works like a charm.
I actually do have AP, just haven't used it really. But it's going in my next mixing session for sure!!
get liquid smoke, often used for bbq sauces, but its basically smoke captured with water, extremely strong in its flavour and its that "burning" taste you're looking for
Honestly, as someone who has recently slipped down the slope into tobaccos and lightly touched a few, just buy some damn flavorings and try them. Pick out the different nuances and imagine what you think would pair well with what you're tasting. It might not even end up being a tobacco vape in the end, but the fact that using a tobacco flavor might give you a hell of a lot more complexity in a certain recipe is an amazing concept and can also bring your recipes to the next level.
That all being said, the few tobaccos I've played with require a LOT of steep time compared to traditional recipes. I'm talking minimum 3 weeks just to get the subtle tastes to come out. You can make it a straight out tobacco recipe if you prefer, or use something at a low % like INW Dark for Pipe for example to darken/sweeten without bringing tobacco taste to the forefront.
So, read some reviews, try some things, play around with pairings, keep it simple at first, build a recipe, and work from there!
Indeed. About 80% of my flavorings are tobaccos. No matter how much I read before purchasing, it's always hit or miss.
As a side note, there are some tobaccos that are good after only a few days to a week. FLV Cured is one of them. TFA Western is also quite vapable after 5 or so days, 7-10 is much better though. RY4 doesn't need much steep but it's more of a dessert tobacco in my books. There's more but of course the rule of thumb with tobacco mixes is minimum 1 month steep.
Bearing in mind my predisposition for the RY4D and the fact I've had my tobacco swing on pause over summer, heading into autumn I'm gearing up again for something darker and recently found Mocca (Inawera) scratches an itch I've been searching for; Smooth chocolate with light background coffee notes.
2% Mocca with .25-.5% Italian Cream (Hangsen) is showing promise for another layer I've been seeking without being overpowering like many furanone driven flavors tend to start off at. I've only played with it a couple times since I bought it but my most recent attempt with Gold Ducat and the aforementioned combination is pressing some of the right buttons, but still lacking some leathery notes...
That sounds like something I may have to invest in. Have you tried FLV Connecticut Shade yet? It's a coffee-bacco. Only had a quick taste last week and whipped up a mix with a few other ingredients which I'm waiting on but so far it's pretty interesting. You might like it if you're going for darker flavors this winter.
I've still not invested in any FLV yet, apart from the few I've mentioned in the past... Eventually, but life and finances keep getting in the way.
I gotta re-up on VG/PG sometime soon, so I'll be putting together a small side list of flavoring -- if I'm feeling adventurous when I do get there, I'll probably consider it, but there's still a few INW/HS I'd like to try/add to the arsenal first...
On a scale of "meh" to "holy shit!", how good is it?
It's "hmmmm, not bad, I have some ideas for this".
In other words, there are more important flavors to buy, unless you're on a coffee-bacco quest.
If you don't own Red Burley yet, get that first.
By the way, I finally picked up FLV Cured a while back. Been experimenting with it a bit. Was not disappointed. I love that I don't have to steep it for 30 days!!
The Hangsen baccos I bought were a disappointment. I was sad. Guess I chose the wrong ones. It was Cigar and DM Tobacco. One tasted like caramelized sugar and the other like Swedish berries. Hope you'll have better luck than I did!!
Could you give me any advice on a few flavors I've recently got? Bull City did me a solid and sent me a few extra goodies on my birthday. They didn't know but I like to think they did it for my day of birth.
I got Absolute Cuban Cigar by INW, and Dark for Fire by INW. Two flavors I've had no experience with. I don't really dig RY4 flavors. I love Cured Tobacco by FLV but disliked Dark Fire by INW. So I'm afraid to even taste these. Any experience?
Ya INW Cuban TA will be something you want to use in order to boost the other tobaccos in your mix. That goes for all TAs I've tried. They are not a main flavor, but a booster. As for Cuban specifically, I find it kind of drys out the mix which is nice for an analog tobacco feel. Start at 1% and work your way up. Don't be afraid to use it, it's not overly strong at 1 or 2% in my experience.
Is there a such thing as INW Dark for Fire? Did you not mean Dark Fire? Dark Fire pretty much just tastes like honey to me.
Anyway, I don't like RY4 much either except for use in occasional desert tobacco mixes. FLV Cured is nice though.
Nice! I just got cuban as well it seems totally worth my cash in my initial testing.
TAs may or not be great by themselves but serve as great building blocks for creating some more intricate mixes from the ground up. You may need to sweeten it up or blend it with other flavors for it to really shine (TFA vanilla swirl or coffee flavors/acetyl pyrazine for example)
My initial mix was
- 1% INW WG Cuban
- 0.3% (Acetyl Pyrazine 5%)
- 2% TFA GCC (This threw it off after week0-1)
- 2% CAP Graham V1 (then this came so I just added it in)
- 1% INW WG Cuban
- 0.3% (Acetyl Pyrazine 5% solution)
- 2% TFA GCC
Not bad/Not great cuban tastes good underneath. cap grahamv1 made it way mo' better. not 1:1 bobas clone type flavor but really good
Next mixes:
- 1% CAP Graham V1
- 1% INW WG Cuban
- 0.3% (Acetyl Pyrazine 5% solution)
- 1% CAP Graham V1
- 1% INW WG Cuban
- 0.3% (Acetyl Pyrazine 5% solution)
- 0.05% - 0.1% FA coconut
Just wanna say good points and how damn happy i am for having being very particular about my tobacco
There are so many subtle difference in tobacco it is very hard to properly mix them as a vape (the burn itself varies the taste, a quickly burned slim cigarette tastes a whole lot different than a slow burning thick churchill for example)
I dont know much about american avaible flavours, but i have great success with the hogshead flavours (they have several tobacco types, which are all good in their own, even have one base always ready with their cuban flavour at 8%)
I even got 2 into vaping and mixing from my tobacco recipes (they still smoke, but it becomes less and less)
Adding a "woodsmoke" flavour was the one finishing touch i found liquids to be lacking (liquid smoke is pretty much the smoke captured in water and bottled up, no more then 1% per mix is enough)
> hogshead flavours
Never heard of hogshead! I'm assuming they're not available in the US.
I'm quite fond of Inawera's tobaccos. Also Flavorah and one or two from TFA.
>raisins
Some fig flavorings I've found too also have a bit of a mustiness that is akin to tobacco. I bet those would go real well with some tobaccos.
Not exactly related to what you're talking about, but I figured it'd be notable, lol. And I agree, I think it's one of the reasons I don't really delve too much in to tobaccos -- I don't have a reference so it's really hard to determine whether or not I've succeeded or what to even shoot for.
I've seen fig in some tobacco recipes, been meaning to pick some up! Is there one you recommend?
I'd say either Delosi Fig or one of FLV's new figs would fit the book well (I didn't notice much of a difference between the sweet and regular, but if you're interested I can do some additional testing since it's had a chance to steep and provide notes). FA is too bright IMO to work as well in a tobacco. Also, FLV Oatmeal Raisin is something heavenly that I could see working in a lot of dessert or tobacco recipes.
>if you're interested I can do some additional testing
Definitely interested. By default I would go with the regular but that's just me blindly assuming really.
I could get my hands on FLV fig, at some point soon I need to order 4oz of Red Burley and will be doing so straight off Flavorah's site.
Tobacco head checking in.
To achieve the ash and smokiness use inawera dirty neutral base. (Aka dnb)
For the walnut/woodsy taste use inawera little space drop.( lsd baby)
The leather note/ hay note is usually found in Hangsen desert ship..but it's also mildly sweet.
Gold ducat from inawera is a very complex yet sweet. I like it though.
If you want to get real crazy try a 1% FA cowboy blend with .5 TFA Turkish and let it set at least 2 weeks. It's decent shake and vape and really close to that cig taste. Kind of taste like a cigarette that's almost finished..like a cigarette but lol
The taste of the burning can't be achieved because it's combustible and vaping isn't..plain and simple..we can't create smoke. That's about all I got for now..
I started with tobacco flavors only then ended tobacco flavorings with TFA D-ry4. Reading this thread made me go look for 1 15ml bottle of 7month steeped dry4 stashed away. Reading the thread vaping it. Over 4 years of vaping 3 years I tried hangsons tfa and fa flavorings. My favs were TFA Double ry4, FA Virgina and FA perique black Hangsen USA RED, and there USAMIX where ones I bought repeatedly . Good luck now im about out of this dry4 flavor but loving it again.
How did you use Perique Black? What type of tobacco were you going for? I have it but found it confusing. I taste a lot of anise and charred green pepper. Never put it in a mix, just did a single flavor tester. Have you tried TFA Cubano? I find the 2 flavors pretty similar.
Awesome that you've rekindled your love of dry4!
I do have a stash of tobacco flavors maybe i can list them with few of my thoughts some are Tfa Ry4 Asian yuck lol Tfa western, and Hangson Tobacco. Im might have to play with some of those now that I got a stash of all kinds of things. Mainly vaping fruits n creams nowadays. Really stuck on Cap honeydew melon at 5% with 3 drops tfa sweetener and a Whipped lemon fluff um idk simple but I cant put it down. I have a few adv recipes on elr. Just been lurking for years now im subscripe to the diyordie and man maybe having to much fun lol. No I never got cubano but not even positive what ones I have left. Really when ever i get a few shots of liquor in me its what im looking for a mix of both hangsen Usa Red and Usa Mix at 1% is it. I never attempted recipes to mimic actual tobaccos just went by taste if vapeable at that time I was golden. Im in michigan and the juices at most stores will make me vomit vape shops are all over now but in 2011 it was different. Once I get that fresh bottle of Ry4D Il start back at um some those FA ones at .25% is enough lol
> there's also some others like fucking bacon
Don't go knocking the Bacon (burnt/smoke bacon) then you should add in INW Waffle that is iron-cooked.