Hi guys,
Warning this a long post
After reading the new rule about pure nic, (which I whole heartedly agree with, I am a chem graduate and would never consider using pure nic for DIY and would be hesitant to deal with it in a lab setting with full safety gear).
I was having a search about nic clean up to see if my set up was adequate for my 7.2% nic, when I came across a link about pure nicotine on the CDC website. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750028.html#top
Most people in the sub know not to mess about with pure nic but I think it would be a good idea before we have another troll posting about pure nic to mention some of the facts from the CDC:
- Nicotine is a division 6 substance . Only 2 other classes exist above nicotine’s classification.. RADIOACTIVE MATERIAL and certain CORROSIVES
- The MINUTE YOU OPEN A BOTTLE OF PURE NICOTINE YOU ARE CONSIDERED TO BE IN A LEVEL A (RED ZONE). A description of what a Level A (red Zone ) some of what is required “ LEVEL A: (RED ZONE): Select when the greatest level of skin, respiratory, and eye protection is required. This is the maximum protection for workers in danger of exposure to unknown chemical hazards or levels above the IDLH or greater than the AEGL-2. A NIOSH-certified CBRN full-face-piece SCBA (Self contained breathing apparatus) operated in a pressure-demand mode or a pressure-demand supplied air hose respirator with an auxiliary escape bottle. A Totally-Encapsulating Chemical Protective (TECP) suit that provides protection against CBRN agents. Chemical-resistant gloves (outer). Chemical-resistant gloves (inner). Chemical-resistant boots with a steel toe and shank. Coveralls, long underwear, and a hard hat worn under the TECP suit are optional items.”
- METHODS OF DISSEMINATION OF NICOTINE: • Indoor Air: Nicotine can be released into indoor air as a fine powder or liquid spray (aerosol). • Water: Nicotine can be used to contaminate water. • Food: Nicotine can be used to contaminate food. • Outdoor Air: Nicotine can be released into outdoor air as a fine powder or liquid spray (aerosol). • Agricultural: If nicotine is released into the air as fine powder or liquid spray (aerosol), it has the potential to contaminate agricultural products.
- ROUTES OF EXPOSURE: Nicotine can be absorbed into the body by inhalation, ingestion, skin contact, and mucous membranes.
- Pure Nic also evaporates at 68°F (20°C) such a low temp it’s scary. the amazing u/spiritofsalts did the math below >(The vapor pressure of nicotine at room temperature (25 °C) is 5 Pa (0.038 mm Hg). https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/nicotine#section=Vapor-Pressure https://www.fishersci.com/content/dam/fishersci/en_US/documents/programs/education/regulatory-documents/sds/chemicals/chemicals-n/S25446.pdf This means air around liquid nicotine, if saturated by nicotine, will be loaded with 5/100000 n/n nicotine at equilibrium. This means for 1 m³ of air at 25 °C: 1000 l / 24 l/mol = 42 mol particles and 5/100000 is 2.1 mmol or x 162.23 g/mol = 341 mg nicotine per m³.)
- Pure nic forms an explosive vapor/air mixture Above 203°F (95°C)
- In the event of a fire involving pure nic a 0.5mile!!!! evacuation zone is considered.
- In the DOT ERG 2004 orange-bordered section of the guidebook, there are public safety recommendations to isolate a nicotine (Guide 151) spill or leak area immediately for at least 150 ft (50 m) for liquids and 75 ft (25 m) for solids in all directions.
I did not want to post this to the sub as I don’t want people thinking of pure nic, but if it gets brought up by idiots again I think it would be good to show people some facts to hammer in the point of the dangers of pure nic and how serious dealing with it is.
So next time you think that there is a conspiracy stop making mad savings by buy nicotine please click the CDC link and have a read. No one is making this stuff up, they are not overstating the danger.
thanks for reading
Edit 1: Claification on what Pure Nic is: this a concentration of 99.9% Nicotine. The Nicotine base that most people buy is 100mg which equates to 10% nicotine.
The new rule in regards to undiluted nic is here
Edit 2: Added u/spiritofsalts math on nicotine air concentration with pure nicotine
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in AP Chemistry, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Juice Labs, and I have over 300 confirmed recipes. I am trained in gorilla chem-warfare and I’m the top mixer in the entire US. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of Cuttwood Spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare nicotine. Not only am I extensively trained in un-gloved mixing, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Flavour Art North West and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face off the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.
Thank you for this post - I'm a Pharmacology major (well, BSc as I'm a Brit) and I love seeing a bit of proper science in this sub. If it helps people understand how dangerous nicotine is in high doses I'll give a very simplified explanation of how it will kill you. Your body is full of receptors that bind acetycholine (AChRs). Most of these will happily accept nicotine instead of acetylcholine (NAChrs).
This makes nerves fire and muscles contract. You obviously don't want that to happen for too long (everything breaks), so your body has an enzyme (acetylcholineesterase) that 'tidies up' the acetylcholine once its done its job.
To much activation of these receptors is deadly. In fact, the most deadly chemical weapons (the Sarins, VXs, Sabin, etc) break the enzyme that tidies up the nicotine, which builds up fast and makes you die a very nasty death. Nicotine in sufficient quantities will do the same thing by default.
I'm not trying to scaremonger, but just to provoke thought. Plus, I don't use my degree in my job so its good to try and remember some of it. If I'm wrong or anyone wants more detail I'll gladly go on.
Do go on...
What would you like to know?
Can I piggyback off of this?
I was doing some reading on a migraine preventative (nortryptiline/Aventyl) and because it's an anticholinergic, I was curious to know how nicotine interacts with it. I'm pretty sure there's nothing serious about that interaction, but I've been told that it can reduce the buzz from nicotine. How exactly does that work?
Thanks for bringing nicotinic cholinergic receptors to the front of my mind again. Haven't really thought about those since my time in A&P at college.
Do you happen to know which part of the Nicotine molecule actually binds and actives nAChRs?
Maybe this helps you as a starting point:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotinic_agonist#Pharmacophore
EDIT: Research paper from 2010:
"Nicotinic pharmacophore: The pyridine N of nicotine and carbonyl of acetylcholine hydrogen bond across a subunit interface to a backbone NH"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2922130/pdf/pnas.1007140107.pdf
First of all I want to acknoledge the rules regarding > 20 % nicotine preparations handling. It makes much sense considering most people don't have the knowledge and not the equipement for appropriate and safe handling of such highly toxic substances and nobody want's to have dead mixers here.
Some comments on your compilation:
> 5. Pure Nic also evaporates at 68°F (20°C) such a low temp it’s scary.
The vapor pressure of nicotine at room temperature (25 °C) is 5 Pa (0.038 mm Hg).
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/nicotine#section=Vapor-Pressure
https://www.fishersci.com/content/dam/fishersci/en_US/documents/programs/education/regulatory-documents/sds/chemicals/chemicals-n/S25446.pdf
This means air around liquid nicotine, if saturated by nicotine, will be loaded with 5/100000 n/n nicotine at equilibrium. This means for 1 m³ of air at 25 °C:
1000 l / 24 l/mol = 42 mol particles and 5/100000 is 2.1 mmol or x 162.23 g/mol = 341 mg nicotine per m³.
> 6. Pure nic forms an explosive vapor/air mixture Above 203°F (95°C)
This means as long as it is kept below 95 °C it can't be ignited by some ignition source. Compared to ethanol much higher:
"An ethanol-water solution that contains 40% alcohol by weight will catch fire if heated to about 26 °C (79 °F) and if an ignition source is applied to it. This is called its flash point.[101] The flash point of pure ethanol is 16.60 °C (61.88 °F), less than average room temperature." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Flammability
Spirit as always I love your work. Thank you for doing the math and quantifying there is could be 341 mg nicotine per m³. > 1000 l / 24 l/mol = 42 mol particles and 5/100000 is 2.1 mmol or x 162.23 g/mol = 341 mg nicotine per m³.
It just further illustrates the fact that unless you are trained and have the correct equipment pure nicotine is a no go.
> Pure nic forms an explosive vapor/air mixture Above 203°F (95°C) > This means as long as it is kept below 95 °C it can't be ignited by some ignition source.
You are very correct.
> Spirit as always I love your work.
Thanks!
> It just further illustrates the fact that unless you are trained and have the correct equipment pure nicotine is a no go.
Yes, and there is no need at all to work with pure nicotine or other highly concentrated forms. Avoiding risks is always better than handling risks.
Personally I was shocked to find out you guys can even buy pure nic. It's limited to 72mg/ml for the general public here in the UK, and I'm positive it's the same/similar in the rest of the EU
How many milligrams per milliliter is pure nicotine?
999.99. Thus the pure part -- nicotine without any dilutants.
Why are you assuming it has the same density like water?
I actually knew it has 1009 mg/ML density and accounted for the fact that it's only 99.9% pure. The rest of the 0.01% are leftover solvents.
No seriously though, I just think he was asking about the concentration since he's working with 72mg/ml (or 60mg/ml in his case) rather wanting to find out the exact density .
So I won't have a problem with my 60mg nicotine lol
Recent studies indicate that the lethal dose is somewhere in the range of 500-1000 mg, so ingesting a 10 ml bottle of your nic could be fatal for a healthy adult. A child or a pet, or a person with certain medical conditions however would probably die of a much smaller dose. So while 60 mg/ml is fine to handle with care, rule out any possibility of a child or pet being able to find it.
Yeah 60mg/ml should be a safe value, still careful with spilling it and getting it on your hands.
Still can get you feeling extremely sick and even a trip to the hospital if the exposure is bigger. Basically it's still the same poison in pure condition, it's just diluted to levels which are not that dangerous. And we further dilute it to make it usable :)
I'm new to this topic. Am I still going to be able to buy nic at %10
/u/joequin some good info in this post
I hope they sticky this. I didn't need information for myself. I'm worried that users will come to this subreddit to learn about mixing ejuice and after seeing no discussion of high concentration eliquid, won't know that its dangerous and be hurt. Making this post prominent could save lives.
edit: for context, I argued against the ban and likened it to abstinence-only sex education and thought it would lead to people being hurt. The mods strongly disagreed.
edit2: context from my previous post https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/4q777v/new_rule_regarding_undiluted_nicotine200mgml/d4rh0g4
Nice post. I've seen this pure nicotine or 500mg nicotine issue come up before and I've always wondered but never asked.... Why would you want to use pure nicotine anyway? Like, what do the people that want to use it think the benefits of it will be over 100-200mg nicotine? The only thing that really comes to mind would be that the bottle would take up less space in your fridge than 100mg nicotine would. And I think (disregarded the already high risk of death) it would be more of a pain in the ass to use because of the risk of massive hot spots in the juice your making. We already can have hot spot issues with 100mg VG nicotine not shaken before and after a mix, with pure nicotine I would assume the chance of hot spots would skyrocket.
What's the maximum level of nicotine that we can add in ejuice? I saw 24mg, can it be any stronger? Just curious.
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I was at a party in my college days where I saw a kid rig up a single cigarette in a gravity bong and draw the smoke from the entire cigarette into the bong. He inhaled all the smoke in one go and almost instantaneously turned green and threw up hard. It did not look pleasant in the slightest.
As mentioned it is down to your preference, however your setup will have a massive impact on what nicotine strength you use. On an ego pen i was using 8mg but when I sub ohm I use 4mg.
Pens don't deliver Nic well at all. Terribly in fact. So yea that's about right, but I would estimate that even 10-12mg (possibly even as high as 20) in a pen device is typically closer to what you would get from a sub-ohm device @ 4mg. Especially something like a CE4.
Great info. Thanks for sharing!
So I'm good if I track down some 95% right? That's low enough to not die immediately.. right?
Honestly though i use 100mg and I'm super careful with it. I spilled a bit on my fingers once and even though I washed and wiped it off right away, I still got a decent buzz haha.
I got it.
You may have missed the other post: we're not allowed to funny here anymore.
Been mixing 100mg nic , 10% for years with no issues , if you have basic common sense (most don't) you will be fine.
If you don't have basic common sense death is assured.