There's either something major that I'm missing, like diketones prevent cancer or diketones prove who really killed Kennedy or something... but I just don't get, especially with all the close scrutiny vaping is getting, why not only are people indifferent about diketones (that I can maybe understand if the alternative was smoking and it's only diketones that's preventing that) but the common feedback I see from the community is that people who opt for the (obviously, granted) less tasty flavors are, well, fucking losers. It's almost like the cool kids who smoke, who don't smoke any more, still need to be the cool kids who 'diketone'. In this community, as someone who tries to avoid anything unnecessarily/overtly harmful, I do feel like an outsider. People snigger and point.
I don't necessarily believe that diacetyl = popcorn aids, but, unless I'm mistaken (and I'm open to that, in fact I'd welcome the idea that the naughty custard isn't really naughty and it turns out LHO really did kill JFK, coz then I can stop fucking around with those lab results links on ECE and get me some buttery shizzle), diketones are fairly nasty inhalants and can fairly easily be avoided.
I'd like either an explanation as to what I'm missing or an explanation as to why these ingredients don't mean shit in the ppm scheme of things. What I don't need is to be condescended for trying to be safe(er) in an activity that, let's face it, is a bit Dr Jekyll at times.
Bracing for flames. Out.
Relevant flair here...
I was on the "don't vape custards" bandwagon for a long time, but a number of studies convinced me that the additional potential harm was acceptable. If I wanted to vape safely, I'd vape unflavored or quit vaping. I vape for fun, and diketones are fun to vape.
I believe it has to do with the significantly smaller doses in ejuice than are in the analog counterparts.
Personally, i vape more for pleasure/taste, than for nicotine, and the fact that the 'good' flavors contain diketones, but in such a significantly small dose, ill go for flavor.
just me opinion.
As for the people who put people down for choosing diketone free juice, they have a problem. And while they MAY have a small point (in regards to diketones, at the level we vape, are virtually non existent), i would guess they are just being snooty towards a juice that is just barely slightly better for you, but gives up alot in teh flavor department.
Hope this makes sense, its late here
I'm pretty much in this boat. I smoked for 10 years, and while diketones are probably not good for me, they are pretty damn tasty. But I am never going to bag on someone for wanting to avoid them. Me personally, I'm not worried about popcorn aids (OP Shoutout), but I can understand that some people would want to avoid them.
I'd be happy to learn that, for sure, the amounts of totally insignificant, and that the big joke is on the 'gluten free' vapers for trying to be safe.
The amounts n e-juice are small on average but we don't vape juice at random so averages don't tell us anything very useful. It's up to you how much risk you want to take but you have to know how much diketone is in your juice in order to be able to make that choice.
As for how much risk etc, I wrote up the evidence here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Deeper_DIY/comments/41t1q8/question_about_diketones/cz4xrka
thanks for the read. Interesting. I wonder if you could clear one thing up for me... I see reports on individual flavorings that say <5ppm but the safe(er) numbers that you discuss talk about ppb. So how do those numbers work? does the fact that diacetyl is present in ppm rather than ppb make it many times more concentrated and more dangerous? or is there then a whole different set of equations to get through for the final result in a day's vape which looks closer to the recommended safer(er) amount? hope my question makes sense.
Take anything bad that is in ejuice.
Find medically proof that it is harmful. There is none.
There are scientific hypothesis, that it may be bad, in a large enough dose. Almost anything is bad in excess.
Now look at the fact that most users are former smokers. Cigarettes have thousands of terrible things we used to willingly put in our bodies without question.
Diketones, Diacetyl both were basically vilified in the ejuice market through fear mongering, witch hunts, and consumer demands.
One of the biggest benefits of making your own juice is knowing exactly what is in it.
If you can't find a direct, medically proven link to harmful consequences from certain chemicals in some flavorings, and they significantly improve the flavor, why wouldn't you use them?
As for the condescending attitude amongst diy makers, its because they are usually more self aware, and don't just read an article that diketones may be bad and demand it not be in the juice, they read further and realize it's a hypothetical risk, and therefore look down on those who react rather than get informed.
Recent studies show that cigarettes have 750 times as much diacetyl in their vapor than an average eliquid. We then have "longitudinal studies" about diacetyl, and we can see that not even 2 pack a day smokers get popcorn lung (really noone ever does) and can therefore conclude that diacetyl and the other diketones are safe in the quantities we intake them.
I personally think that the whole diacetyl scare was at minimum, some terrible terrible science, and at worst, a ploy to give vaping a bad name and make smokers afraid to switch over... but thats just me.
It's like being a vegan
I was going to say that actually. But the reason vegans are hated is why? because there's this pang of irresponsibility/guilt that gets felt in the meat-eater.
Well the fact that they call non vegans literall murderers and bloodmouths. Not to mention they act like they are some super human and feel that they always have to state they are vegan. A shit ton of vegans are dicks
I think it's a personal decision- if you know the risks, have educated yourself with all the relevant research (like Farselinos), take into account your age, health, number of years smoking, other risk factors...and then decide to go ahead and use that Capella Van Custard V1...it's an informed decision. I have a problem with vendors who go nuts using questionable flavors and then insist there's no risk-
Trust me it's mostly about how young the people are here . I was exactly the same way when i was in my 20's-30's , you ALWAYS downplay everything .
Nothing is potentially harmful lol, that type of thinking has cost me though and i do suffer with numerous ailments these days due to that kind of thinking.
I really wish i didn't have such a carefree attitude.
The people who say there has never been a case of "Popcorn Lung" with vaping so diketones are no big deal will be waiting forever because it's not called that .
Respiratory issues caused by vaping (if and when they develop) will be be referred along the lines of COPD type symptoms but never "Popcorn Lung" .
I don't vape juice with diketones because many medical professionals believe it's the diketones in cigarettes that are a big contributing factor for respiratory issues.
To me and many others eliminating as many risk factors as possible is just basic common sense .
I am also not dumb enough to believe ALL e juices have far less diketones than real cigarettes , the famous "Five Pawns" e juice company had juices that tested to have diketone levels that exceeded that of real cigarettes.
With thousands of e juice company's out there i know they aren't the only ones . With people consuming MUCH more juice than ever before with sub ohm and high wattage it's a definite concern .
If i was in my 20's and 30's i wouldn't care but at my age and living dangerously when younger i am paying for some of those decisions now with health issues.
I do believe if issues do develop it will be in the distant future , many are very interested in seeing results of consuming large quantities of diketone containing juice over a 10 to 20 year period.
Don't listen to the nonsense about diketone free flavorings being bad , some are but most are fantastic .
Fantastic reviews everywhere , FlavorArt flavorings are known for being mostly diketone free and they are the best.
To each their own though
that's probably it (regarding younger people). Something will surface one day where it's conclusive that yes, while people aren't getting popcorn lung, they are getting something else that harms the lungs. And I watched my dad die a VERY slow and grim death about 5-10 years after he quit smoking. It's the worst way to die. You start off not being able to walk to the car without gasping for breath, then the same thing happens to going to the toilet, then sitting up, then a cold will put you in hospital for a few weeks while you piss and shit yourself, and still it's a few years of that before death happens.
So my point is - find THE safest possible way, and if you can't, just quit. I'm currently doing as much research as I can to find the best way and if it all turns up as bad (currently finding out nicotine isn't as friendly as I'd thought) then I'll just knock it on the head. The best 'buzz' is that of having a nice healthy body and a being able to hike up a mountain when you're 60+
I think it's a balance thing. The negative dialog was pushed (largely from outsiders) with a heavy amount of force. That resulted in a stronger push back from those that had already done their research and made their own decisions on what they wanted to consume.
It may be possible then that those who avoid them are perceived as buying into overblown propaganda? Just throwing ideas out.
Ultimately, vape what you want!
that would make sense. And just to reiterate, I'd be happy to learn that there's damn near no point in avoiding them and that it's all propaganda maaan. People are saying that about popcorn lung but not so much diketones overall.. I don't think so anyway.
There is alot of shit in our daily lives that contain diketones. You fry up something with butter? Enjoy them diacetyl. Popcorn lung (Bronchiolitis obliterans) is very very very rarely linked to diacetyl. The only reason why it has the popcorn lung in it is because of that factory. If diacetyl was such a heavy cause of Bronchiolitis obliterans then you would have a infestation of it in smokers. A shit ton of crap can give you that lung condition. Copy paste go.
collagen vascular disease, transplant rejection in organ transplant patients, viral infection (respiratory syncytial virus, adenovirus, HIV, cytomegalovirus), Stevens-Johnson Syndrome, Pneumocystis pneumonia, drug reaction, aspiration and complications of prematurity (bronchopulmonary dysplasia), and exposure to toxic fumes, including: diacetyl, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, ammonia, chlorine, thionyl chloride, methyl isocyanate, hydrogen fluoride, hydrogen bromide, hydrogen chloride, hydrogen sulfide, phosgene, polyamide-amine dyes, mustard gas and ozone. It can also be present in patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Certain orally administrated emergency medications, such as activated charcoal, have been known to cause it when aspirated. Additionally, the disorder may be idiopathic (without known cause).
Bronchiolitis obliterans is a rare endstage disease but the evidence of harm from inhaled diketones comes from measuring the incidence of COPD in food factory workers. The risk of COPD per unit exposure appears to be very similar to smoking. Written up here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Deeper_DIY/comments/41t1q8/question_about_diketones/cz4xrka
Because people are replacing delicious components to flavourings with a flavouring that is literally puke.
Please show me research where vaping puke chemicals is safe compared to acetoin/diacetyl/acetylpropionyl.
There's so much pseudo-scientific bullshit around vaping and it manages to catch on
I find that most of the "less tasty". Is more like a nice flavor followed by vomit. I know that everything tastes different to everyone, but I think most of this community doesn't want to take the time to mask the vomit. Its a lot like nonas cake is supposed to be a better for you yellow cake but it has a taste of floor cleaner so most people don't use it.
The truth is because the demographic is almost entirely ex smokers who are already not particularly risk adverse (why pick up the habit in the first place). Trying to tell them any aspect of an alternative they have a hard enough time staying honest with is particularly unhealthy isn't going to be met with enthusiasm.
I avoid acetoin purely because I'm pretty certain it makes me cough, so much so it was too annoying to vape some of my mixes. Noticed it immediately when I started using FLV Butterscotch and Coconut that have it in shitload ppm, went away when I subbed them out. It's the first thing that made me look at test results for anything. Real hazard or not I don't know, I just didn't want the cough and it's a definite irritant in my case and easy to avoid as I use mostly FA anyway.
The "majority of the DIY culture" doesn't look down on diketone free mixing. It's just this sub.
Mention CAP VCv1 on VU and you'll get the same kind of attitude that you get for mentioning v2 here.
Also, I think it's spelled "snicker". Be careful out there.
I do get it a bit elsewhere. Maybe not so much insulting though, but still an attitude of "why would you do that, there's no evidence diketones are harmful". I'll check out VU (assuming that stands for... Vaping Underground?)
And, no, it really is spelled snigger. Unless it's a British/American thing.
Because some people are dicks. I personally don't care what flavor people choose to mix with, as long as they're vaping... not smoking. I think part of the whole diketone-superiority thing comes from the opposite end where people are scrutinized for still using diketone flavors. People assume they're not aware that they may be risks involved in vaping them. Having to constantly justify why you use a diketone version over another gets annoying.
I have to constantly justify my use of non-diketone juices. I feel like an ass if I add "by the way, I'm trying to do this diketone-free so only make those flavor suggestions". Shouldn't be that way.