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Modest Monday - Steeping
submitted over 9 years ago by VurveVurve with the Swurve

Here we are once again everybody. I never thought I would be able to BS this far out.

Anyways, today's topic is one that I believe a lot of DIY'ers take for granted, but if you hop on over to ECR, you'll find a lot of creative ideas from people trying to make their "premium" e-juice palatable.

Steeping. A combination of the homogenization of your bases, evaporation of flavorings, and chemical reactions of your flavorings and bases. You will so often hear people on here saying the only steeping method is time. Depending on your goals though, this is not always the case. Hopefully this doesn't go too far into /r/deeper_DIY, but I must thank /u/abdada for helping me gain some understanding for what goes into steeping. It's much more complex than I would have imagined.

For my testing, I used my Dreamsicle recipe. This is a recipe I am very familiar with and know inside and out.

So, the different steeping methods:

1.Time

2.Machine

3.Heat

4.Open top

5.Ultrasonic Cleaner

#Time

The tried and true steeping method. You mix up your juice. Shake it by hand and put it in a dark, cool place. Shake every day until ready.

When people report a steeping time on a recipe, this is the method they are referencing. You have some pretty standardized steep times depending on your recipe:

  • Fruit: 1-2 days

  • Cream: 5-7 days

  • Dessert/Bakery: 10-14 days

Your overall recipe steep time depends on the longest steeping component. So if you make a bakery vape that includes fruit notes, you will want to steep your juice till the bakery notes are completed. There are always exceptions to the rule. This is just my personal standard.

#Machine

Whether you're using a sander, reciprocating saw, or a hobby paint shaker, it's all the same. You are helping speed along the physical homogenization of the compounds within your e-juice.

I went the route of hobby paint mixer, which I also use for hobby painting, for 2 minutes. This was about all I could bare listening to it shake back and forth. It produced a nice white, airy looking froth within the bottle. In my opinion, it tasted no different any sooner than shaking by hand. My final conclusion on this method is that it's no better than thoroughly shaking your juice by hand and just about the hype of building something neat to shake your juice.

#Heat

Using a controlled heat source such as a crock pot, electric kettle, or just a coffee mug, you immerse your freshly made juice into a heated water bath. The idea here is that once the VG has thinned, you periodically shake the juice to allow for a more full and complete homogenization of the flavorings.

In my testing, I used a 20 oz. Yeti Tumbler, which is quite effective at holding temperature over long periods of time. Temperature testing ranged between 80-150° Fahrenheit. Steep times ranged between 30 minutes to overnight (10 hours). Overall, the warmer the temperature and longer the steep, the quicker my juices were fully steeped, but the shorter the longevity of my juice. More sensitive volatiles such as most fruit flavors were more impacted by longer and warmer steeps. My personal preference is about 100°F for about 2 hours, shaking periodically. I started by adding the creams to the bottle, started steeping, then adding the orange flavorings with 15 minutes left. I allowed my juice to cool before taking the cap off to drip.

It makes sense that this method would be optimal for fastest steep time. The heat thins the VG allowing for quicker homogenization, it excites the volatile top notes allowing them to reach equilibrium faster, and the increased energy allows any chemical reactions that may happen to occur quicker. Warmer and longer steeps with this method also could potentially degrade flavor compounds and allow more top notes to escape than you desire, which would contribute to flavor muting.

Overall, this method is best for personal use and if you plan to vape your juices relatively quickly. If you are the kind of mixer who creates 20 different juices and then shelves them to use over a period of months, this method is not for you. The flavor of your juices will quickly fade over time and you will be left with a less than optimal outcome.

#Open Top

After making a fresh juice, you keep the top off of it and place it into a dark place.

For this test, I made a fresh juice and let it sit overnight (~10 hours) and then replaced the top for the remainder of the test. The fruit notes were noticeably more muted. The creams did not seem affected, but the juice was overall less robust than the time steeped juice.

The only time this would even seem like a half good idea would be if some of your flavorings contain ethyl alcohol. With a very high vapor pressure, leaving the top off your bottle allows the ethyl alcohol to evaporate out of the juice, leaving behind the desirable flavors. It should be noted that any other high vapor pressure compounds will also be allowed to escape.

#Ultrasonic Cleaner

Under review. Will update worth user reviews until my testing is completed.

#Conclusion

Of the 5 different steeping methods, Time, Heat, and Open Top are the three most worthwhile. They have their pro's and con's. Time is ideal for people who are actually patient and make a lot of juice at once or for juice makers looking to sell their juice to a shop where it could potentially sit on a shelf for a while. Heat is good for people who don't want to wait for a standard steep cycle. Open top steeping is good for people who are using ethyl alcohol based flavors, though you probably want to do the open top steeping before you add other flavors or nicotine.

As always, be sure to check out /u/matthewkocanda and I tonight on BeginnerBlending, and you can check out last week's episode on YouTube

You can also view all my previous Modest Monday posts over /r/ModestMonday

Comments
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6 points
 
by Chrisdvr1over 9 years agoProud Sidebar Reader!

This was way too thorough and thought-out to BS. Great job super informative, and IMHO not all beginners are total retards don't think this is over the head of anyone who is serious about making their own juice.

5 points
 
by NatesYourMateover 9 years ago

I can add on to the ultrasonic jewelry cleaner bit. Got one (nicknamed the Turbo Steeper) about 8 months ago and use it to "Turbo Steep" my juices. Here's the deets.

This is the model I have. First, some experienced wisdom: These guys are good for about 45 minutes when the reservoir inside is full, and will get your juice plenty warm enough to shake well even after its been "shaking it" for you (using that lightly as the main shaking is going to be done by you). I recommend a rubber band and a beer bottle cap to hold the button down for that long, as it has an automatic shutoff after 3 minutes. Some people use binder clips, but this causes the lid to be open and this thing is fucking LOUD without the lid closed, depending on how much you have in there. That pretty much covers the tips and tricks part.

Does it work: Fuck yes it does. I've got some pictures of Blue Dot Vapor's Milk of the Poppy, one with 6 hours of TURBO STEEPING on and off, and another with none, shown here: http://i.imgur.com/DS14Kx4.jpg

Is it worth it?: I don't know, that's up to you. Basically what you've got here is an effective way to make your newly created juice ready to be vaped at full flavor in about a day and a half if you've got some time to just hang out and binge Netflix or something. If you think that $30 is worth not having to wait a few days/a week for your juice to not taste like the salty grundle of an elephant in heat, then this thing is for you, if you're into that kind of shit, then save a few bucks for that next trip to Africa so you can get weird.

Sidenote: These are also incredibly effective at cleaning atomizers of all kinds. Make sure to pull the coil out (unless you want to try and wash it with alcohol in it, I tried that and it worked okay-ish and could post a bit more about that if needed), and pop everything in there for about 2 cycles or 6 minutes and everything will be sparkly again.

3 points
 
by Vurveover 9 years agoVurve with the Swurve

How loud are we talking? The reason I don't use my paint shaker for steeping is because it's too loud, even for how small it is.

This definitely has me intrigued. All the ultrasonic cleaners I was finding were $200+

6 points
 
by NatesYourMateover 9 years ago

If you leave the lid open, it's pretty damn loud. If you shut the lid and have the bottles almost completely covered in water, it's not really that bad. What I'll do usually is go ahead and set a timer on my phone just so I know I'll take it out in time, and then just set a folded up towel on top of it and you basically can't even hear the thing anymore, just a very soft hum.

If you were looking for something to steep about 3-4 30mls at a time without breaking the bank or getting tinnitus, I really recommend one of these guys.

3 points
 
by Vurveover 9 years agoVurve with the Swurve

Well, you've convinced me to give it a shot.

I'm not a patient person and hate waiting to get feedback on recipes

3 points
 
by CarradinesSonover 9 years ago

I like the sound of this too. Found this one on amazon UK site and may be investing. Seems to be the same one or very similar.

uk link

5 points
 
by CheebaSteebaover 9 years agoFrugivore

It's definitely not as loud as the paint shaker lol. I think it's not really that loud as far as dB goes, but because it's a high frequency sound it's far more annoying. I got one for like $35 off of amazon and it's great for cleaning, though I basically just use it for quick homogenization like I would with a paint shaker now and then let it steep. Nice because I can run multiple batches through it instead of one at a time.

I haven't actually done any thorough testing with it at more than 16m intervals to see if there's any pros/cons to "speed steeping" with it. Even without a heated ultrasonic, it's going to warm up a bit just from the friction so IMO you don't really need a heated one especially if you're going to be running at longer intervals, and if it's at shorter intervals, just use warm water in your cleaner lol.

3 points
 
by Vurveover 9 years agoVurve with the Swurve

All good points. I'll start researching these a bit more tonight and update this post.

2 points
 
by PriceZombieover 9 years agoOne of "The Damned"

Ultrasonic Jewelry Eyeglass and Lens Cleaner

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Price History Chart and Sales Rank | FAQ

2 points
 
by BigSmileyFaceover 9 years ago

Doesn't ship to Canada 😢

4 points
 
by Paleone123over 9 years agoProud Sidebar Reader!

I love these posts, but I don't think this one is really a beginner topic. I fear very new people will not read carefully and see the cons, or will not understand the significance of things like losing light volatiles with some of these methods.

7 points
 
by Vurveover 9 years agoVurve with the Swurve

You're right, it's not a beginner topic by any means, but with it so prevalent within ECR, it's a topic most people are familiar with. Unfortunately, it's hard to stay out of the deeper_DIY aspect of it and still thoroughly explain the different types of steeping.

If you're interested though, I can forward you all the stuff abdada sent to me.

5 points
 
by Paleone123over 9 years agoProud Sidebar Reader!

I totally get the impetus behind the post subject. I just wish the conclusion was a little less permissive. I'm a big fan of this post because it covers some of the same stuff but says "don't do this unless you know what you are doing"

https://m.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/41p961/diy_mythbusting/?ref=search_posts

3 points
 
by Vurveover 9 years agoVurve with the Swurve

Very, very interesting. I wonder if this means I'm running my paint shaker for too short of a time, or if these lab grade homogenizers are doing things a mechanical shaking device cannot.

4 points
 
by goldfish18over 9 years ago

> I never thought I would be able to BS this far out.

It's impressive you keep finding new things to write about each week and they're all far from BS.

I only use the time method and I'm extremely happy with the results. Plus, I'm just lazy, I prefer fewer steps, less cleanup, and I'm at the point now where I always have juice on hand to where I can let something sit for a week and not have that itch to vape it all immediately.

Also, I watched Phil Busardo's youtube videos where he visits Molecule Labs and they talked about having some proprietary steeping methods for the juice they produce (Cuttwood). I can only imagine that it was some form of heat steeping because from what I saw, they didn't have any sort of holding tanks where they could have stored juice for a length of time after making a batch, but who knows.

3 points
 
by Vurveover 9 years agoVurve with the Swurve

Heat steeping goes deep. I can only imagine that's what they were referencing, but it's not technically a steep in the traditional sense of the word.

I've only scratched the surface here, though I won't even pretend like I understand it all.

3 points
 
by goldfish18over 9 years ago

Yeah I feel you. That's another reason I only let my juice sit and do it's thing, because I don't know enough about the other methods of steeping.

3 points
 
by leapinglabratsover 9 years ago

I've seen contraptions that use a trickle of air bubbles, like an aquarium pump. Don't ask me why oxidation would help, but it was supposed to help speed steep somehow.

4 points
 
by doublek76over 9 years ago

Thank you so much for this and all your posts! Always well done!

I was wondering if you have any thoughts on adding certain ingredients to a recipe at different stages of the steep. For example, If I were to make a recipe that called for 5% TFA Cheesecake GC, 6% TFA Strawberry Ripe, and .5 % CAP Sweet Raspberry could I start with the VG/PG and CCGC. begin the steep, then a week later add in the SB ripe, continue the steep, then a few days later add the Sweet Raspberry and nic, steep for another 24 hours. Would that make the final product taste any better, or last longer, or do you think it would ultimately be the same as adding all the ingredients and steeping for 2 weeks? TIA!

3 points
 
by Vurveover 9 years agoVurve with the Swurve

There is a buttload that goes into staged heat steeping, exactly like you describing. Heating certain volatiles to certain temperatures can supress and/or enhance certain qualities of the flavoring.

I know zero specifics about these processes though.

If you are doing a standard time steep, it pretty much comes out as a wash though. Your sensitive fruit volatiles will stick around longer if you add them last, but if they are reacting with the creams, you're then just delaying that process.

2 points
 
by doublek76over 9 years ago

awesome. thanks again!

3 points
 
by jcgivens21over 9 years agoOne of "The Damned"

Tobacco flavor steep time is generally 14 to 30 days in my experience.

2 points
 
by stayinwonderlandover 9 years ago

2b. Time Machine

1 points
 
by stayinwonderlandover 9 years ago

couldn't heat just be used for experimenting then? and leave the time-method for when you know you have a successful recipe?

1 points
 
by bogey_againover 9 years ago

With time steeping do you really have to shake the bottle every day? Maybe I'm the only one with a short attention span. The first 3 - 4 days I shake it daily, then about once a week if I remember. I never make over 120ml bottle so that may be part of the reason it works for me.

3 points
 
by 6retro6over 9 years ago

I don't think anyone have done a comparison between shaking it daily and just let it rest after initial shake...or for that matter shake it weekly ;)

1 points
 
by Vurveover 9 years agoVurve with the Swurve

I usually try to shake it at least once a day, but I would be lying if I said I always remember to.

1 points
 
by spiritofsaltsover 9 years ago

> If your using a non-heated ultrasonic cleaner, than all you have is a very expensive homogenizer. No more special than a reciprocater saw or sander.

It's not really true that ultrasonic is just homogenizing.

I recommend reading the sonochemistry item on wikipedia for an overview:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonochemistry

Just curious, did anyone try microwave?

1 points
 
by Vurveover 9 years agoVurve with the Swurve

Yeah, I already admitted my lack of knowledge in the topic, but have been convinced to try it. I guess I didn't fully understand how it worked.

1 points
 
by spiritofsaltsover 9 years ago

Intuitively I would have thought the same. ;-)

1 points
 
by TotesMessengerover 9 years ago

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

^(If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads.) ^(Info ^/ ^Contact)

0 points
 
by probywan1337over 9 years agoI will rip you a new one if you don't use the sidebar & search.

I don't steep anything, honestly. I'm so lazy now that I just say fuck it and vape it whenever I need to.

-1 points
 
by Mford46over 9 years ago

Not a bad read at all. You did a great job! You contribute a ton to our community and you are always more than welcome here! It's a pleasure to have you a part of it. Keep up the good work!

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