I've been working on certain three recipes for the past half a year. Two flavor profiles are something that many have discussed here during that time, namely cinnamon roll and mango lassi, and the third is a remake of an older butterscotch/caramel/custard recipe. I'm not stuck with them per se, but I do have a problem which is difficult to describe.
I have a steady flow in mixing and I mix new recipes and/or try new flavors at least weekly whenever I have the time. I also sell some juice to my friends and that helps me a bit with the feedback I sometimes ask for, but in the case of these recipes I don't seem to grasp how to come to a conclusion. They are at a point where every iteration is at least vapable. When I develop recipes, these in particular, I generally manage to figure out what I need to do to get the results I want because of the vast amount of information on here/ELR/Google. However, whether I get where I want or not, it always leads to more development, and there is never a catharsis.
There is a lot of dialogue here on DIY_ejuice and it is helpful, but maybe it has become more difficult to post incomplete recipes, as the most valued posts here nowadays are either ready recipes with plenty of notes or flavor reviews. I may be imagining but there is a bit more of a negative vibe, or at least less participation in "help with my recipe" -type of posts.
^((edit: I think I am imagining, there's a thread from just 17 hours ago with super helpful participation, although not much upvoting)^)
How can one achieve continuous dialogue through a long development progress without posting or otherwise asking too much or too often? I know you can have some amount of contribution in alltheflavors, but know very few (if any) skilled mixers personally/online to really make it work.
How should I change my approach to these recipes?
In what format should I contribute my experiences and findings in a way that they would be helpful to others even if there were no ready recipe?
TL;DR ^(kinda): when do you give up on a recipe, and how do you do it?
I don't think at all that asking for help on your recipe is frowned-upon in this sub. Like you said, it's more about how you post the question.
I think formatting it like one of the "final" recipes posted in the sub is a good start. Put your recipe in a table, and write down your tasting notes, explaining why you need each flavor in the mix. Then tell the reader what you think is lacking or overpowering, which will give mixers an insight into what you want your overall final flavor-profile to be. Friendly advice will soon arrive.
This sub can seem rather harsh sometimes, but your type of question, especially when formatted in a way where you have shown you have done considerable development already, will never bring negative responses. It's the bullshit "I've searched the sub and have this super basic question which can be answered if I actually did a search" posts that get people riled-up.
I'm not worried about negative responses (it's just internet points on a disposable and renewable identity anyway), I've always trusted this sub to be the best place to come to when google runs out of results. I'm more worried about that when I do finally actively seek advice after using all that can be searched, is it what I really need? Is there something obvious hindering my process and progress I'm blind to? And most importantly the TL;DR.
Final recipe format seems to be the best for posts - if they have any additional benefit to anyone here because it could get unnecessarily lengthy with three recipes with 6 months of haphazard notes each.
Maybe do a separate post on each recipe, and in addition to tips and tricks, the main context could be a discussion going on development and troubleshooting in general?
Or maybe I'm just overthinking everything lol. I just graduated and will probably be facing these same processual/methodological/whatever problems when developing my work skills.
Hmm... when I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel, but I am still drawn to the image in my head as to what the final flavor should be, I will start absolutely fresh. Maybe even look to real-life recipes (actually, this is usually my very first method to attack a flavor mix I have in my head) and get inspiration there. Or look on ELR and see what people are using to get a similar taste. I have a lot of throwaway recipes, which means I've also learned a lot.
Don't be afraid to hit the Reset button. It might push you to view the recipe at a different angle.
And there have been users who have posted their trials and tribulations in reaching a finalized mix. It's like a written journal of their adventure into that recipe. Those are excellent reads and also encourage other mixers to brainstorm with the OP. I'll post links, if I can find them.
I agree, especially the roll has been extensively discussed here and there and mango was a big topic for a while ago, all this has been a great help. I have pushed the reset button on all three at least once, and it has helped, but I'm seeing diminishing returns. Especially when there are just so many flavors and some things just can't be achieved in a vape. Maybe that's what I always forget: it's a possibility that the flavor can never actually be what I imagine it to be.
Sounds like you are overthinking it a bit. Taste is subjective, what matters is what tastes best to you. If you can provide the current iteration of your recipe, along with development notes, and you can articulate what YOU think is missing or off in the flavor, people here will typically be super helpful. The more specific you are about the help you want, the better the answers will be.
And to your original question, give up when the amount of effort to reach your goal exceeds the expected benefit. This is, naturally, entirely subjective. Especially with this hobby, where part of the benefit is the fun of development.
TL;DR: Set very specific expectations of what your end recipe should be--texture, taste, etc. The better you can define it, the more accurately you can chase it, and not be stuck with "Hm....this tastes good, but it's not really what I was thinking." Instead, you should be able to say "This meets criteria 4,5, and 6, but 1, 2, and 3 didn't quite hit the mark, so those are the areas I need to work on for this recipe."
I'm not the most skilled mixer, but maybe you've already reached the final version of that recipe. You just don't know it yet. If you're always just "trying to make it better," that isn't really a goal that you can attain since it's so subjective and vaguely defined. Instead, you should define your recipe goals as attributes. Take your Cinnamon Roll, for example.
To me, if I were developing a cinnamon roll, I would need the recipe to meet these requirements:
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Bready Flavor, though more of a texture than flavor
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Cinnamon Flavor on the Inhale
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Glazed Icing flavor on the inhale
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Icing flavor should "stay in the mouth" during and after the exhale
...so those are some basic requirements that I would place on the recipe. Since it's something you've been chasing for a while, you may have some very specific qualities that you're trying to achieve, and there may be MANY more than 4 requirements like my example had. As you are going through your tests, if your experimental recipe doesn't meet all of those requirements, then it is "incomplete." Once you've defined (either in your mind or on paper) what your expectations are, you have something to chase after. Something that actually is attainable. So that when you meet all X Requirements, the recipe is complete. Could it be improved upon? Sure, but you set out to achieve certain results, and as long as you achieve them, then THAT recipe is "complete."
EDITED Fixed some poor wording in my original response.
This is exactly how I mix nowadays, and it yields best results and fast. Of course sometimes you have to think outside the box, but in general this is what every new mixer should learn before diving into DIY after a few nana cream clones and mustard milk.
The problem isn't achieving what I set out to achieve, it might take a lot of time and way too much money but that's not the problem because the info and flavors are there. I've made good of these recipes, the problem is that I just can't seem to finish them, even if I perhaps reached the X requirement. I have three batches of the mango lassi that I thoroughly enjoyed, sold and re-sold.
But still, it didn't feel complete.
I think you need to find discussions really. I get a lot more help asking about things I'm curious about on other treads. When asking a question, you are most likely to find it on another reference site or through test. Hell, I'm still fucking testing my flavors. I bought a mini-notebook and all my notes are on paper. I tried binge testing and my taste buds got fucked for a week, so I'm back to letting most my new flavors steep before testing and do one every two days so I don't overload my senses.
To expand your recipes, provide notes on flavorings and recipes. Explain how they taste, interact and more. The more information provided the more rewarding and deserving the post is.
The cinnamon roll recipe, I can provide a lot of info on and advice. Or if you want we can collab on that recipe, I'm trying my one million try on it tonight. Two pairs of taste buds on recipes are better than one.
Some of these things just kind of take time and an accumulation of flavors IMO. A lot of my older recipes could be reworked with much greater success given the new flavors I have and knowledge I've gained. This is kind of something I've been wondering about too, now that I have a decent amount of solidified recipes -- going back and reworking them to perfection.
One thing that has helped me decide when a recipe is "done" for the time being, is if it's something that I can mix up, enjoy, recreate it, and enjoy it the same. Now the question is, if I revisit a recipe and improve on it, do I just leave the old one and make a v2? Or do I amend the old one?
Mango is definitely a hard profile, still want to update my Mango Lassi. Really I only posted it because my co-workers tried it and really liked it and I was happy enough with it for the time being. When I posted the recipe I made sure to indicate I wasn't 100% happy with it, and wondered what others' suggestions would be and got some really good feedback that has helped me a lot in the journey of perfecting it.
TL;DR In the words of Jeannie K, "Once you've hit yum, stop." Vape it, take notes of what improvements you might want to make, then revisit it later to try and make those improvements.
I dont know if I really give up on recipes or just step back for a long time, enough that when I return to it I have new and fresh ideas. I'll go back and tinker recipes I thought were done and find new things I like. Its kind of the fun part of DIY for me is always having a project to work on