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The word "deeming" means exactly what it sounds like. They are literally deeming whatever they want to be "tobacco products", regardless of this making any sense. You will not loophole your way out of it unless a specific exemption is given, as with non-nic non-tobacco ejuice, which remains "not a covered tobacco product", as far as I know. You will still have to use a covered tobacco product to vape it though. They can literally do whatever they want.
Fuckers :( hopefully through legislation we can carve out a few nice loopholes I know that Common Sense doesn't really apply here but you would think this would be one of them
We are approaching this all wrong. Instead of stock piling and looking for loop holes we should be speaking our minds to the corrupted Government.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/overturn-fdas-ruling-ecigarette-classification-tobacco-product
Its sad to see these "Vape Experts" with millions of subscribers and customers and we can't even hit 100k signatures.
That shit doesn't matter, petitions never work. If you're lucky someone might give it a quick glance before throwing it in the trash at best.
I signed I participate in all advocacy and I believe it's still our best hope!!! That said I don't think there's anything wrong with looking for alternatives I said it before I'll say it again the FDA and our government are owned by corporations. Your individual rights don't matter anymore just the rights of Corporations my belief is unless there's an overhaul of the entire government the FDA will just do whatever they want
I somewhat agree to this as well, I mean not to mention any Youtubers by name, that get paid to review vape products, get paid to show up to vape meets, basically get 30 packages a day from vendors for free, most have quit there day jobs because youtube money has funded there lives now. Its so funny because for the past 3 years most of these "Vape Experts" or "YouTubers" have become the face of the industry, almost celebrity status. Yet it was very rare to see them make any advocacy videos or really be a big supporter of advocacy. Now considering whats going to happen and may happen, they will all lose there "Youtube" jobs and have to go back to being a normal human being lol.
With that said you see TONS and TONS of these "Vape Experts" making advocacy videos, and in my opinion the only reason why is because of fear of losing there youtube money, and also because making an FDA video will return a bunch of views. Its smart but really all they are looking for are more views, and help keeping there youtube money rolling in. Yes I know that sounds very ASSHOLE-Y but hey I kinda feel like there is some truth to that statement. But at the end of the day does advocacy really work? I mean seriously no matter how many signatures or rallies, or bills to support and vote for; the FDA, senators, legislators and government will do whatever the fuck they want to do. Period.
Thoughts?
Nicotine has been synthesized and there's a webinar happening right now actually where the FDA just answered a question and said that yes, synthetic nic is considered a tobacco product and subject to regulations if intended to be used for vaping.
Yeah I figured the intended use Clause was going to catch this and why I haven't posed the question earlier but after hearing the response email the FDA sent that Wayne read off on his podcast it clearly stated but the right for them to do these products is based off of the nicotine you use a source from tobacco so hopefully somebody throws it back in their face
And I guess another question if it's not an industry saving idea can we as DIY purchase synthesize nicotine without worrying about the deeming regulations?
This is something that will become clearer with time but my guess is "no." If they are selling nicotine, synthetic or otherwise, to consumers with the intended use of vaping, they would need to go through the expensive and strenuous PMTA process. There might be a loophole, like "for pesticide use only", but I'd wager that any company that tried that would fall under the gaze of the FDA and be in hot water. After all, there's absolutely no reason for a pesticide company to make nicotine base at the dilutions we use, at the purity we need, and using the carriers we require, unless it is actually for vaping.
Similarly to how charging a penny to use a B&M's sample bar will still, most likely, be seen as an attempt to skirt the "no free samples" regulation and be considered as breaking the regulations.
That said, those are my impressions from the days of research I've done in the last couple weeks. I may be wrong, I am not a lawyer.
There is no loophole in the way the deeming regulations were written.
They stated they consider anything that can or does effect the vaporization of liquid as part of the "Electronic Nicotine Delivery System" or ENDS ^^vaping unit.
The wire, wick, batteries, software/firmware, batteries and juice all ~~effect~~ affect the vaporization of liquid, which may or may not have nicotine in it.
On the hardware side, they won't allow user-interchangeable parts. No removable batteries, no rebuildables or replaceable wicks, no atomizers. That means a cig-a-like.
On the juice side, since the liquid effects the creation of vapor, any liquid sold/used in the system is a tobacco product, as it is part of the ends.
So based on the deeming scope, any liquid sold for use in a vaporizer is tobacco product, even if it has no tobacco or synthetic or alternative sourced nicotine.
There's actually a specific exception for...
E-liquids that do not contain tobacco or nicotine or are not derived from tobacco or nicotine do not meet the definition of "covered tobacco product," as described throughout this final rule,
This is copy pasted from page 22 of the deeming regs. I'm not a lawyer but there doesn't seem to be much room for interpretation there.
I've read that, but every where else lends to the scope including no nicotine juices. See the top post in this thread right now, They even said synthetic, non-tobacco derived nicotine is considered a covered tobacco product.
The way I read this is, they aren't regulated flavored, non-nicotine juices as a standalone, but if they are intended to be used in a device, that device is deemed a tobacco product since it affects the vaporization of nicotine juices, and thereby once you put nic free juice in said device, it then, too becomes part of the ENDS unit, and regulated.
I know what you are saying, and I'm not sure how it will work in practice, but I find it odd they called it "e-liquid" and made a point of NOT deeming it, if they plan to turn around and deem it based on "intent". They could very well have not made that statement at all. My personal opinion is they made that statement to avoid tanking the whole Rule due to overreach. If they had NOT made that statement, anything capable of being flavored and vaporized under any conditions would be a tobacco product. This would make every liquid food additive a tobacco product. The FDA may bow down to the tobacco companies, but the food companies have at least as much pull. They would blow up the FDA if that happened. The FDA would literally spend the next 100 years in court defending federal lawsuits, and doing zero enforcement.
Edit: punctuation
Common sense from the FDA probably some clause on page 400 that totally negates the statement it's definitely an interesting idea it sounds like the price synthetic nicotine is an unrealistic move unless the price came down or somebody in the DIY scene put together a lab to do so maybe NN
http://grammarist.com/usage/affect-effect/
If you enjoy the way vaping is today, expect to engage in its grey market. DIY and grey markets are the only way you'll be able to vape the flavors you like to vape. Only time will tell how US businesses will sell their nicotine. So I don't see how stockpiling is a bad idea. Seriously, load up.
I think nic can be (and sometimes is?) extracted from other plants such as tomato plants.
I've heard of eggplant but not tomato that's interesting
Both are at levels 100s of times lower than tobacco, which means it costs 100s of times more.
A company called NKTR swears up and down that their juices that contain tomatine nicotine will be exempt from the law. But I was reading that even 0mg juices are considered a tobacco product once put into a vaporizer. I really can't get a lot of definitive answers
If they arent excluding 0 mg Nicotine from the regulation, I don't think they would even give a shit whether or not the nicotine comes from tobacco
Just as a FYI, growing your own tobacco is legal in the US and there are varieties that can be grown in every state besides Alaska (actually the indian varieties may even grow there, but the nic is dangerously concentrated in them).