So how will this affect us DIY'ers?
petition to get the white house to overrule it
full copy of the ruling its large (499 pages)
Congrats /u/Vurve, the newbie influx from your ECR post is going to be nothing compared to what is ahead. Finally get the heat off you.
Just giving you shit. I love the information you are putting out, and the Beginner Blending is everything I wanted the original In the Mix podcast to be (and wasn't) and more! Keep it up, you and /u/matthewkocanda both.
On a more serious note, I'm really glad I got into DIY before all this shit blows up. I hope that means nicotine extracts will stay available for us. Otherwise I guess I'll just have to go straight CBD.
I'm one of those guys from ECR that was pretty 50/50 about DIY after reading his post. I thought, you know the work of it and keeping up with the organizational requirements might just not be for me. Now? I'm definitely going to order some basic stuff just to start developing the knowledge for when it might be neccessary
Fuck. We need more mods, and a cooler subreddit for the vets!!! This shit is about to turn into the ELR of vaping subreddits. It will have pros and cons, but hopefully some people turn into amazing mixers and I will passively never have to create a recipe again.
/s god save the diy
my inbox is ruined.
Hooray for flavor shortages!
stocking up now lol
You have a couple years, plus the time that will be spent in court arguing about all of this. I didn't read thoroughly, but I remember seeing 18 months. I wish I could be more certain, but it's only day one.
so whats the shelf life for regular TFA/FW flavors?
average manufacturer-quoted shelf life is 1-2 years for a flavoring.
People can start patronizing their cake supply places and requesting they carry the specific brands. I see Lorann at mine and can get colorless but keep meaning to request that they carry Capella and maybe INW. Would not likely help the tobacco flavor vapers.
(Comment 168) Some comments stated that FDA does not have the authority to regulate the ingredients that can be used in e-liquids. (Response) FDA clarifies that, although it will not be directly regulating the individual ingredients in e-liquids at this time, sections 905 and 910 of the FD&C Act give FDA authority to review and consider ingredients in making determinations on SE reports and PMTAs (i.e., the Agency will look at ingredients within a specific e-liquid and determine whether the overall tobacco product meets the statutory standard for marketing authorization). In addition, section 904 requires manufacturers to submit a listing of all ingredients added by the manufacturer to the tobacco, paper, filter, or other part of each tobacco product by brand and by quantity in each brand and subbrand, and section 915 of the FD&C Act authorizes FDA to issue a regulation to require that "tobacco product manufacturers, packagers, or importers make disclosures relating to the results of the testing of tar and nicotine through labels or advertising or other appropriate means, and make disclosures regarding the results of the testing of other constituents, including smoke constituents, ingredients, or additives, that the Secretary determines should be disclosed to the public to protect the public health and will not mislead consumers about the risk of tobacco-related disease" (emphasis added).
(Response) FDA agrees that clarification is necessary. Liquid nicotine does not have flavorings or other ingredients added to it. E-cigarette liquid (or "e-liquid") is a liquid containing nicotine, flavorings, and/or other ingredients. This final rule regulates e-liquid and liquid nicotine that is made or derived from tobacco.
Im confused.
Wouldnt this law only apply to ejuices with nicotine, and nicotine derived from tobacco at that?
We can extract nicotine from many many other common sources. Id vape a broccoli juice. ;)
If big tobacco can get nicotine-less ejuice under their regs, then someone should argue that candy cigarettes should also be regulated.
So from what I gather, as long as e-juice manufacturers bottles are in compliance as far as warning labels, etc., they are unaffected?
liquid nicotine has been available for a long time, doubt anything will change with that. The flavorings might be going under investigation for potential inhalation hazards. Im 235 pages in and i dont see anything affecting us DIRECTLY as far as making our own. For those of us who sell our juice - technically were now "tobacco manufacturers" and under the same regulations and standards as say, RJ Reynolds factories. (if you want to do it legally that is)
That's what I was getting from it too. So for us DIYers who make juice for ourselves and/or friends and family, it's nothing to worry about. However, for DIYers who may be considering selling their juice, at a B&M or online, legally doing so is going to be much, much harder. I am nowhere near the point of selling my juice, but eventually, I was planning on having an online store and potentially getting my juice in a few local B&M's. So if I understand correctly, this is going to be much much harder with the regulations.
It won't. Flavoring is for candy, remember?
I already know two vendors who committed to selling pharmaceutical nicotine on little biggy or other sites, anonymously and safely.
We use the same concentrates at my restaurant for flavoring desserts... Ice creams, whipped creams, creme brûlées...
Bottom line - unless you plan on LEGALLY selling your e liquid, nothing changes...except maybe availability because now everyone is going to DIY
>because now everyone is going to DIY
As demonstrated by recent events, that's... not necessarily a good thing.
/r/shitty_diy_ejuice will be entertaining for a while
And you guys think what I did was bad...
Wait for the real shit storm
Don't you think that companies will end up selling their concetrate instead of their pre-made juices?
That would be the loop hole
Honestly I would prefer this kind of business anyway. It is easier to ship (and cheaper) in small enveloppes, and people can add the ratio pg/vg they prefer.
Well it didn't say anything about liquid Nicotine (afaik) so hopefully that means we're in the clear
Sorry, it not only talks about it, but further distinguishes between what is liquid nicotine and nicotine in an e-liquid solution. Nicotine in any form is (cough) a tobacco product.
Let's start sourcing it from tomatoes then. Make our own cultivar. "Tomacco" is the only naming choice of course.
I intend to ignore this until it goes away.
It'd be hilarious if we saw every ejuice company in the world just ignore it and refuse to buy into this shake down. A very expensive shake down at that. It makes me curious as to what the FDA would do at that point. Probably start shutting them down.
There's no way to keep the ammo out of big tobacco's hands.
The government only has as much power as you give it
Well.... The government only has as much power as WE give it.
In 2 years, the government will go and shut down every ejuice company that "failed" to submit the licensing application or whatever and then comes the legal consequences of selling regulated products. Then it becomes about breaking laws and then about jail time. There's not a whole lot any one individual can really do against this. Plus who's to say the government won't attempt to make an example of all the ejuice companies that think they can sneak past regulations?
Only time will tell.
I am wondering the same. I downloaded the 500 page document and skimmed through it. From what I've gathered, under all the political bullshit and legal jargon is that e-liquid manufacturers will be subjected to the same laws and regulations as tobacco companies. :(
If someone can clarify what this all means for us, and maybe shed some light on the situation, I would be most grateful.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/overturn-fdas-ruling-ecigarette-classification-tobacco-product
I have a question as a longtime vaper. With the new regulations - should I even attempt to learn to DIY juice? I am afraid with the regulations availability might be non-existent for ready made liquids so maybe I am better off just going back to cigarettes?
Well the logic with everyone at the moment is that PG, VG, flavoring, and nicotine by themselves are not regulated and FDA approved. Put them all together and they become a tobacco product. Meaning with the annihilation of small ejuice companies, we will need to look towards DIY to save us from the ejuice drought that is going to come. Thankfully government regulations and the process of enacting laws takes time. So I'd say it's perfect time to learn diy before it's too late. (3 years.)
Take a deep breath. They cant ban flavor concentrates without destroying the entire food industry. Get a liter of nic and throw it in the freezer. Worst possible outcome is that we will have to mix from 24 or 36mg nic instead of 100. They cant stop us. Spend your energy advocating for the millions of people that don't even know mixing is an option!
Probably very little, considering the vast majority of products we use are already registered with the FDA as safe for consumption.
It will probably make it more expensive, and less choice, when it comes to nicotine vendors though. And I would also expect to see a Max nicotine content implemented at some point.
This is, however, going to kill small retailers of juice with nicotine pre-mixed. Once mixed for retail sale, it will be considered under the regulations. That mix will need to be approved by the FDA. Costing retailers quite a bit.
This is a money grab.... pure and simple. When you break it down, there's no way to regulate e-cigs as they think they can.
I saw this on page 22 of the new rule
E-liquids that do not contain tobacco or nicotine or are not derived from tobacco or nicotine do not meet the definition of "covered tobacco product," as described throughout this final rule, and will not be required to carry an addiction warning or to submit a self-certification.
This basically means if you're making 0 nic you have no reason to even consider the rule at all. I foresee, if the deeming rule stands after lawsuits are done, this turning into a system like some EU countries where you buy unflavored and buy a nic pack separately.
Tomorrow (2pm, Monday, May 9th) there is a free "webinar" on the new regs conducted by a BU public health professor who was apparently hired by White Cloud e-cigs to do it. I'm skeptical of anything coming from White Cloud for my own reasons, but if one applies one's critical faculties while imbibing the info, this may be a useful breakdown.
"Among other things, Dr. Siegel will discuss pre-market tobacco applications, modified risk claims and how these regulations could be a step backward for public health. In addition to discussing these topics, Dr. Siegel will also be fielding questions."
Here is the registration info:
http://whitecloudelectroniccigarettes.us6.list-manage.com/track/click?u=50a2029b4b0bfecee444672e6&id=d0555cc966&e=706a5a96e2
There is no tobacco involved with a mechanical mod and a liquid, why is this even possible?
Government. We let them do whatever whenever and only get bothered when it directly effects something 'we' enjoy. So all those times we hu-rahed a crack down on something it felt like this to someone else.
This is exactly what happens when we profit by forming a new industry and monetizing it without giving the government a bigger share. Tobacco gave a shit ton of money to the government to stay where they are. We are going to need to give a lot more while simultaneously giving up a lot of freedom as well. This is really illogical and basically a biased attack against our industry.
So my question is, is now the time to go purchase bulk nicotine, VG, PG and flavors, or are we (the DIY'r) ok for a little bit. I'm about to place a huge order for the basics today and was curious if I should wait or not.
Well the flavorings are used for more than just ejuice. So those will stick around. I think if you really are worried about ejuice disappearing from your life, you need to stock up on nicotine. Because that is the only real avenue that the FDA can try to regulate diy ejuice.
What about mods?
There's millions of mods in the market right now. Buying 2nd hand will almost always be an option. Plus the grey market is ripe for the picking in regards to after regulation.
The main reason we should be concerned isn't that our lifestyle is getting forced into regulation. It's that smokers will not have the accessibility that we had and now quitting smoking will be that age old task that it has always been.
Ok, so I'll just order nicotine then, saved me some cash lol- I was about to buy a few gallons of VG and a gallon or 2 of PG for my wife (she vapes 50/50).
Well the FDA regulations are going to take 2 years to enact. So I would start buying more and more incrementally just to stock pile a mini juice lab for myself. I have quite a bit now but not enough to last me until the foreseeable future. VG and PG has been around for years and for various reasons as well.
I honestly don't think this will affect the consumer except for the removal of variety. Since there's tons of people selling their ejuice but now we'll be cornered into buying only ejuice from companies that can afford the licensing fees. Look out for that Marbolo ejuice at your local 7/11. God.
Fuck it! At least in CA we will be able to smoke weed recreationally soon. I prefer weed over cigs. With weed you take a couple of hits and you're good. Are there any Vapers organizations in the bay area? We should make a human chain on a major freeway or something to bring attention to the cause.
People like you are whats wrong with protesting. Its supposed to just gather attention and pressure organizations in power into being for the people. Blocking a freeway is the most irresponsible thing ive ever heard of. Innocent people that had nothing to do with it wont be able to get home or to work. Youd just make people hate our cause. You want to protest get every vaper in the country to gather at the fda building with a pack of cigs and jist start smoking outside the building all around it while making the point that this os what they want. Affect the people involved not fuck up 1000 peoples day that had nothing to do with it