Hey there everyone. Long time reader, newer manufacturer, and even more recently, frustrated DIY_EJuice community member. The reason, the lack of research behind your "blends sucking".
There's one big thing that I tend to notice that a lot of DIY'ers are making the mistake of, and are asking the wrong questions.
The concerns should not be "What is the best XXXX flavor". Instead, you need to be asking yourself "Which of these all blend together to create the perfect flavor". This is what is called 'Flavor Layering', and today, we're going to talk a bit about it in the culinary, and e-Juice world.
As a chef for the majority of my professional career (outside pro-paintball player short stint), pairing flavors has been something that even the highest caliber of chefs refine and constantly train, and re-train on. This is what gives those "Chef Ramsey" and "Marco Pierre"'s their names. They are on an endless pursuit to be the best, and have the best.
In order to maintain that level of perfection, they must constantly taste, touch, and smell everything. As a mixer, you should be doing the same. Constantly retraining your mind and palette into a olfactory machine that can recall flavors and textures on command.
With that being said, some of the best dishes in the world actually utilize multiple fruits, grains, starches, or other ingredients to create the perfect mouth watering special. This is where as a DIY mixer, you need to look at it with the same respect. Only with more detail.
Since we don't have one specific "Strawberry" flavor for example that I have yet to find is "THAT'S IT!", we have to resort to using our palette and training to find the right balance of flavors to create the most naturally tasting flavor experienced.
In order to create this "THAT'S IT" moment, we need to look a bit deeper into the concentrates themselves. While there are over 30 different Strawberry concentrates available, so make the mark, and others don't. However, finding the perfect blend of multiple flavorings will allow you to create an actual tasting Strawberry, as oppose to when you use 1 flavoring, it may come out to weak, sugary, overpowering, etc.
So, what do you do? Get to know your ingredients.
Every ingredient that comes through our lab, we flavor test, at multiple percentages, different aging/steeping cycles, and how each step along the way is impacted. Doing this with each of your individual ingredients, will allow you to be able to achieve greater success when you are trying to blend 2, 3, or even 5 (Yes, my Mango has 5 mangoes in it) ingredients to create the perfect recipe.
So, with that being said... I could go on for days about pairings, concoctions, and recipes. My only advice I can ever stress over and above all else, is avoid the sweeteners and additives at all costs. They are bastardizers and change your flavor profiles.
Plus, have you ever melted sugar on a stovetop? Remember those fumes that come off it when you inhale them, choke you out? Yeah... that's what you're vaping on with Sweetener/Stevia/Sucralose/Fructose/Additive-Based products. Know your ingredients, know them well, and you don't need any of that stuff.
Don't get discouraged if you find your first few tests and samples to be a bit off, or not to your liking. DIY is all about making mistakes, and most importantly, LEARNING FROM THEM! (Take notes, and tons of them!)
Go get mixing and have fun!
This post rubs me the wrong way.
Complexity is not the path to the best flavor; At worst its a marketing gimmick, and at best its a high quality flavor that is a pain in the ass to replicate (good for business, not necessarily for DIY'ers).
Know your flavors? Don't get Discouraged? Gordon Ramsey is a great chef because he tries really hard? I really do appreciate that you have a business and are taking the time to post here- but it feels really condescending and lacks any useful specific information or instructions.
The post rubbed me the wrong way as well. I have gone from making extremely complicated recipes when I started, to very simple ones over the last year and a half or so. I like the simple stuff better. Honestly, this sounds like some sort of solicitation, and judging by some of the comments, it worked.
The response to my mango question is a perfect example of the lack of actual help. I work with a lot of mango, and I have a lot of mangos. I asked about the base, and the response was >All the organic ones you can find actually. :D
So what is the useful information here? Am I to scour the internet for organic mango flavorings, mix them all at infinitely varying percentages. Why not disclose this information...unless you are trying to sell something? When I get something good, I share with the community.
I don't know why this whole post irritated me so much. Probably the condescension and lack of mango knowledge distribution...
Yeah, I lurk here and this has compelled me to finally comment. Maybe I'm offended as a chef but this sounds like a lot of bragging and very little meat. Perhaps as a chef, ego that isn't backed up has become a pet peeve of mine but you're right, there are a lot of words that make him sound cool but he didn't actually say anything here.
Anyway, if he wanted to help people make good juice, going on about using complicated recipes without any details wasn't the way to go. He should have said that something people could learn from chefs to make their juice better is balancing flavours. For instance, if your juice tastes dull and boring, a little citrus or other bright acidic flavour will balance it out and make it taste better overall. This also works in reverse. It's why a duller flavour like blueberry works so well when it's rounding out the sharp edges of pomegranate. And also why a little lemon will brighten up a blueberry and make it pop better. Something like that would have been more helpful.
But one doesn't need 5 organic blueberry flavours to do that.
I 100% agree. This post not only rubs me the wrong way, it's not even relevant to me and I assume, most DIY mixers. I'm not in this to start a business and have flavor profiles that "complex". I'm in this to save money and stay off cigs. Basically, the post says if you dont layer, your juice sucks. Where does this "dont use additives" come from? A vat of caramelized sugar is equivalent to inhaling additives? what? Provides no example of a base? I"m pretty active on the canadian ecig sub and I've rarely heard of this maker.
Look at posts other vendors have made, much more useful and interesting.
This post = "want to get better at mixing? Mix more"
Good grief - with little to no actual information presented, but a whole lot of egotistical babbling...you come off as a complete douchecanoe. Did you honestly read over your post and think, 'yep - a lot of people are going to glean some juicy nuggets of wisdom here, I'm not beating my chest too much' before you hit Submit?
All the best to you and your lab...
Thanks for your feedback. Take from it what you will, but maybe not everyone is as educated in flavors as you are. Some people haven't considering this outlook when mixing. Not once is there a website listed, or promo codes, etc. Keep that in mind before calling some "egotistical douchecanoe" as you so elegantly put it.
I'm not sure what you thought you read in that post, but at no point did I accuse you of trying to sell or promote anything. Please do point out to me where any 'educational' bits may be hidden in the original post. I consider myself to be an experienced novice, and still had a couple of great laughs reading through that exposition-dump.
This is a great post. Actually, when you mentioned that your "mango stone" has 5 different mango concentrates, I kind of had a moment... when I first started DIY a few years ago, I was actually doing the same thing with, say, strawberry. I would mix a few strawberries from different manufacturers to try to get what I wanted. However, over the last year or so, I've been throwing that out the window, as I'm trying to simplify my mixes. Guess I'll be trying that method again. Thanks for re-introducing it to me. Nice write-up, makes a lot of sense!
I agree, and glad we were able to help!
Keep in mind, and for me personally, I don't use the word "Stone" in my bases, because for example, my Watermelon Hard Candy has a different "stone" base than my Peach Watermelon Blast. The PWB Watermelon uses 3, where the Hard Candy version uses 4.
Each application may be different, so finding what works best for each recipe is what is going to give the best results. I just feel the best way to be able to get the best results is by knowing your ingredients best. :)
I thought the term "stone" is used to identify a mix of concentrates together as a single ingredient... I suppose you could name your watermelon bases whatever you want! I could be wrong on the usage of "stone", though. And you are right: knowing your ingredients is key. I am definitely not as thorough as yourself with the variety of percentages and maturation intervals... that's just crazy talk! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us hobbyists. Always helps when a professional can lend some of their insight.
You are correct in the term 'stone's meaning. I just don't like it because I find to many people assume that the end all be all. Like that stone is the perfect watermelon for every flavor. :)
Just pointing out that is all.
I also know I have a bit of OCD. The girlfriend has come to accept it and just writes down what I say now instead of asking "What the %&*( does that mean?!?" when we do note taking. :D
Why YOUR juice sucks ? That's how you want to play it?
To say that a flavor sucks simply because it only uses one vendor to achieve that flavor is ridiculous. Go ahead and praise yourself for perfecting your 5 layer mango but don't shit on someone else's work for being a bit more simple. I doubt you'll post any of your recipes but if you did they'd probably not be worth the trouble.
Thanks for your feedback. While my title was not a direct attack at those who use stand alone profiles, I do have a few flavors out there that work GREAT as stand alone. Acai is one of them. Boysenberry another.
However, the proof is in the pudding when it comes to food, tasting, and your olfactory settings. I am not "shitting" on anyone's work. I am merely pointing out that the more you know your ingredients, and how they work in multiple mediums and concentrations, will yield better fruit than buying blindly on recommendations/recipes posted on ELR.
Well let's see some of that pudding. Don't just come in here and tell everyone how refined and advanced your fancy palette is and not bring anything to the table.
Keep tuned in. I'll post up a couple recipes in the April 2016 thread.
I used to contribute, but the community was much smaller when I first started posting, and not very active. I have come back after spending the last 9-10 months focusing on developing the business, and will be happy to share some of my bangers. :)
I agree with this whole heartedly. I've had plenty of recipes that include a single flavour concentrate for that flavour note that work perfectly. But, like you said, I have started approaching DIY like I approach the kitchen and I've found significantly more success. With this mentality, I've found better means of complimenting certain flavours and, like you, mixing like flavours to get a more believable and enjoyable single flavour note.
Hell, I would have never thought about trying to mix my Drunken Pear recipe if I didn't go to my personal food recipe cookbook for inspiration.
Cheers on the informative and helpful post. One thing I will say though. I don't have the science to back it up, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe vaping EM is inherently dangerous like vaping Fructose is. It will fuck up coils in high percentages, but I haven't seen the science of EM creating offhand carcinogenic chemicals like Fructose does. Again, let me know if I'm wrong here. I don't often use TFA Cotton Candy, but I do note a slight boost in some of my recipes when used in low moderation.
You are not incorrect in your assumption. There is no "proof" that EM is as dangerous, if at all, compared to Fructose. However, the 'additive' route I feel like is kinda like cheating on a test at school. Like a short cut if you will. Most flavors will give you the profile you want if you work them enough at the right %'s and balances.
However, due to the "unknown" behind it, I personally, and professionally, choose to stay away from it until we have proof that it DOESN'T cause damage, over waiting for it to have the Nixon approach, and play innocent until proven guilty. :D
Ramsay and White got their names by hiring agents, who instructed them to develop characters, stick with the bit and make lucrative cross marketing deals.
May be a noob question to some but not to me as I'm just starting.
But how do you test flavors? I imagine you start at a percentage, but do you still mix in your nic level, and do multiples tests at different pg/vg ratios? Or do you simply do a straight pg mix to get the full taste of the flavor?
Get some low fat cool whip.
Get some teeny spoons and cups.
Get a dollop of whipped desert topping in the cup and put a tiny droplet of flavor concentrate on top of that.
Stir vigorously. Take a small taste. The low fat whipped topping has a mild flavor and sweetness. Once you try a few you get a better idea of what your flavors are.
This is just one method, but it works for me.
Good luck with flavor mixing. It really can be fun. And frustrating.
At first I thought you are joking. But now I think I found a reason to become obese
Heh.
It really works.
The reason I use low-fat is because it has less flavor.
It lets the flavor concentrate stand out more.
I wouldn't try all you flavors at once. You will fatigue your sense and not be able to accurate gauge them anyway.
But it did help me when I started. It also helps with new flavors.
i make 5 ml, make 70%vg-25%pg 0mg at 5% flavour.
i taste about a mill on day one, and taste about the same every week to see the change. fruity juices taste pretty good from day one, just lacking a bit. bakery notes need a bit longer.
Try some mild heat application. I used the "dry warm rice" method before getting magnetic mixers. Just make sure to agitate freshly out of the heat to allow steeping to really blend your ingredients.
I do agree though. Our bakery blends steep at least 4 weeks before bottling for sale. Hell, our Strawberry Deep Fried Ice Cream actually sits 10 weeks with 3 different agitation processes to get to what I call "accepted state" and the flavors won't change any further over the next 180 days.
Personally, it just depends on how in depth you want to test, and how many resources you have available to complete your testing.
Within our company, when we get a new flavor, we test it (flavor/steeping only) at the following percentages and timelines.
Percentages (Depending on Manufacturer): 0.5%, 1%, 2%, 3%, and increase in 1% increments until you hit 8%. Then increase in 0.5% increments, 8.5%, 9%, 9.5%, 10%. - Some companies, such as FA and INW, I don't go above 7% in initial testing unless results yield they need it.
Steeping: We flavor test on a daily breakdown. Immediate Shake-n-Vape (Day 1), Day 2, 3, 5, 7, 14, 21, 30, 45, and 60. After 60 days, we evaluate all our notes from every % and timeline and can very easily base where we want to go with what profile, and how much of that flavor we need.
Most important thing I think though the whole process, be it as in depth, or not, as we are, is to take notes. As much as I wish I could remember everything, with 6 months in business now, I'm on notebook #11 (500 pages each) of mixing, flavor, and compound research notes.
Most importantly though, HAVE FUN! If you're not while you're doing it, then you may need to consider other options on how to make it more enjoyable for you.
You actually bring up a very good point about having fun with it. It made me realize that as much as I wish I could do extensive taste testing like you have to do for your company, I simply don't have the time. Or more so, don't want to make the time to do it. I started DIYing simply to cut down my costs of buying juice. I've been using recipes off of eliquidrecipes and I think that's where I'm going to stay for now. Maybe after I'm out of school and have more time to dedicate, then I can dabble into REALLY making my own.
I definitely appreciate your insight and will continue to read up on these kinds of topics, but for now, I think I'll leave it up to the professionals lol.
Awesome article and information! TYVM. Do you ever test below .5%? I've noticed with a few FA and INW flavors that even .5% seems to be on the high end. I've only ever halved the values below .5 (.25, .125, etc...), I wonder if maybe there are different values that I should be testing below .5?
Actually, with INW, FA, and some OOO and HGSC options we looked into early on, we mixed at 0.1%, 0.2%, 0.25%, 0.3%, 0.4%, 0.5%, 0.6%, 0.7%, 0.75%, 0.8%, 0.9%, and 1.0%, then stepping up in 0.25% increments.
I apologize for the generalization in this previous explanation, as I have only found about 10-15% of the INW/FA flavors available here require that low of concentration for testing.
Also in regards to Nic, I usually prefer to flavor taste at both 0mg, and then 3mg; but only after the initial taste test profiling. To be honest, a good quality Nic, (especially VG based) will not change your profile, so Nic will only degrade faster and in all honesty, slow down my testing.
(Imagine vaping 100 bottles of 1 flavor at 3mg to get your notes... 0mg is easier on the buzz and Nic needs :D )
I have been doing DIY for a few months. So far I have only created one recipe that has really worked, and still tasted good even after being used for a month.
I did recently get a scale, and 100 5ml bottles so I can start testing individual flavors.
What can cause a flavor to taste good right after blending it, but after sitting for a week, it starts to mute all around, or taste totally different than the components added?
I do not use artificial sweeteners in my blends (minus what may already be in the flavor concentrate, but I try to avoid those ones), but what about Ethyl Maltol as a sweetener? I know it is the primary competent in most cotton candy flavors.
I use marshmallow as a sweetner, also because it gives a full body. You do need to use them at a low level. (1-2% for me personal) otherwise it might overtake your recipe and make it extreme sweet
I have yet to experiment with cotton candy, but i've read that it's used for it too.
I avoid EM, and all others sweetners/additives at all costs. They chew through your coils, cotton, and most importantly, have some concerns with turning into known carcinogens when vaporized.
Just like when you stick your face over a vat of sugar you're turning into a caramel... that fume and smell with choke you out.
I find if you are getting muting, there's a couple of possible reasons for it. The most common is being OVER flavoring. Feel free to post your recipe, but to be honest, there's SO many variables that could be impacting your product... it's hard to speculate.
However, overflavoring, undermixing (not using a magnetic mixer), improper aeration, and olfactory resets (vapors tongue) can be the most common of bandits; which excuse my assumption, but if you're only getting 1 recipe down, you're probably using it pretty heavily?
I change my flavors every 120mL. No matter how much I love it, and biggest of all, constantly drink water and stay hydrated.
Feel free to DM me the recipe if you don't want to post it publicly and I'll be happy to look it over for you.
This is something I've been trying to figure out for awhile. Alot of us dont have background as cooks. How can we train our taste buds to taste all the different notes in a flavor? Wayne had talked about this some but like to get as much input as can. I test flavors but still trying to train my brain and senses to pick up on all the stuff that goes on in each flavor before even start blending flavors. I think that kind of stuff needs worked on too. Or at least for me it does. I do taste things alot better now than I did a year ago right before started mixing.
It's kind of hard to explain, but one of the best examples I can give is the difference between TFA Strawberry and TFA Strawberry Ripe.
TFA strawberry is much more forward and potent. The taste is very sharp and distinguishable. TFA strawberry ripe is more subtle and bland. More of a background or base note depending on how you want to use it
Taste everything you can get your hands on. Walk around your local markets, farmers markets, candle makers, everything you possibly can taste, touch, and smell, do it. Go out of your way to try fresh, organic, and localized ingredients.
Also, I actually taste test (put a dab of concentrate) on my finger and taste it, as well as vape it.
I find as a cook/chef, you have that opportunity to use this vehicle on someone else's dime in laments terms.
In your personal endeavors, just remember to try everything. Even if it sounds gross. Some of the best foods I've ever tasted, were ones I thought I would never eat.
Thats what i have read before too. Been trying to do that more but not always easy to do.
> My only advice I can ever stress over and above all else, is avoid the sweeteners and additives at all costs. They are bastardizers and change your flavor profiles.
Really? No joy, wizard, citric acid? Curious about this opinion ;p
I have personally found that with enough testing and working your recipes and %'s, I do not have any of these in my blends I offer through my line. I have tried Citric Acid, and I do agree it does make some flavors pop quite a bit. However, the studies around it's inhalation is still out to lunch.
For that reason alone, I try to stick with the "guilty until proven innocent" model with additives. There is a ton of them in testing/spectrometer labs awaiting results; until I get the results that says we're safe, I tend to shy away from them until we know more-so-than-not we're good. Especially the sugar/sweetener based formats.
What about saline?
I am just curious what is going to be the best medium to sample small combinations of flavors?
Is carbonated water a good thing to add different flavors to to figure out a flavor I am going for?
Having to rewick every time I adjust a flavor is maddening. There has to be a better way! Since you seem to work in a lab around this stuff a lot I assume you have a few ideas.
There's a few I use. Honestly, re-wicking about a dozen RDA's daily makes the process quicker and having a couple bowls of warm water to clean them. There are a few other methods I've used when doing complex blends that I don't want to destroy my RDA's, like tea's.
- Whipped Cream Method
- Drop of the blend on a piece of raw sugar
- Drop of the blend on your finger
- Ceramic Coils
- Wickless Coils - these work good for 1 puff testers.
There may be more, and some work for me, and some don't. It's all in personal preference to be honest.
So who did you play for? I'm a paintballer myself. Used to play with some pretty good guys.
OT: What team did you play pro-paintball for?
Made a career of playing paintball; professionally. I play for CXBL Mirabel Impact camp, and before that ran Operation Milsim Store & Field in Niagara Ontario where I captained The Eh Team Militia whom we were overall 2008-2009 Series Champs. Left due to to much drama and not enough $. :(
I like ur thinking. I've been diying for a while now so I know a lot about it. Seems like know some stuff, but tbh I'm not able to taste slight differences with percentages. I feel like my tAste buds are shot
Just remember to stay hydrated, taste everything, and if all else fails, a little bite of some lemon, or smelling some coffee grinds usually helps me personally clear up my palette.
Lemon? the coffee doesn't seem to be working for me. I heard brushing the tongue is the cure. I guess I'm just fuched
Sorry but I think OP is just using this as a means to promote his company. Until you understand what blends well, you should stick to the basics.
Thanks for your feedback. Not once was a link mentioned, promo codes used, or mentioned of the original company I operate; other than in my username.
Helping to understand blends better is to work more in depth with them, is it not?
If you're not comfortable layering your flavors, don't. However, don't accuse the post of being a shameless promotion tactic when there's not even a link posted anywhere.
It's kind of obvious that you're doing promoting your company. Look at the way you subtly introduced your mango flavor (much wow, 5 different mangos!). Applaud you for the nice try though.