So, as we all know, Flavor West has been a bit under fire the last couple weeks for some of their concentrates containing sugars. My question is, how big of a concern is this really? I read on a post that smoke from sugars produces acetaldehyde when exposed to temps greater than 340F, but how serious is this really? Is this just kind of another Diacetyl type scare, where the danger is really there, or should I legitimately be worried about this?
I've talked to about a dozen chemists so far, and they're split. All of them admit that sugar in a solvent like PG/VG has a higher burning point -- which is good news.
The bad news is that sugar will gunk on coils. Once it gunks, THAT sugar is in direct contact with metal reaching up to 500-600F. That sugar is definitely becoming acetaldehyde.
What amount? What level? No one knows.
It's more about reducing a possible risk than saying "this is definitely risky."
If you like vaping those flavors, go for it, just change your cotton before it turns black.
Cool, good to know. I was kind of expecting that answer, and was hoping people would see it so they can be reassured a bit. When that post by BlueDot came out, people were swearing off pretty much everything FW related. It just seemed like the diacetyl issue part 2
I like diacetyl and keep it around for minimal use -- I don't go overboard with it, though.
I definitely do not like sugar in concentrates, though. I can't work with that well and it destroys my wicks and coils. Yes, the flavors taste good but there's no purpose in sugar, so I dumped mine out and won't buy again.
It opens the door for other vendors to release something similar. And we have a few cakes out there which might work well to replace FW.
Any idea on the amount of acetaldehyde produced in the body after a night of heavy drinking? Also would the issue of inhaling acetaldehyde be more because of lung tissue contact increasing risk or what?
It's a tough question. From what I've gathered of the research evidence, the issue isn't just alcohol drinking but chronic alcohol drinking. Chronic alcohol drinking increases iron in the liver -- mind you I'm writing this from memory and I don't drink alcohol so this isn't anything but my memory and opinion -- and it's that iron that increases the mutagenic activity in the liver from chronic alcohol consumption.
The mutagenic concerns lead to an increase of acetaldehyde formation (from ethanol) in the liver, which leads to a possibly carcinogenic outcome.
Since the amount of acetaldehyde formation appears to derive from how chronic the alcohol consumption is AND how much iron may have been formed in the liver AND how much mutagenic reactions have occurred, there's really no way to estimate how much acetaldehyde is formed. Since it's being formed in the liver, and causing lung cancer, my guess would be that it isn't an apple-to-apple comparison to lung tissue.
If you have better information, please share if you're willing. I don't consumer alcohol -- maybe a liter of wine a year at most -- so I don't have much reason to investigate it.
Oh man that's interesting. I never have seen info on iron playing a roll in all that. I haven't read a lot of info on it, just wiki articles on metabolism and such. I will have to try to examine mechanisms of action in the future.
It's always interesting to me to stop and examine risks and determine whether or not they are large enough to worry about. Kinda what lead me to this topic vs drinking. Hah, 5th year university students so I consume a large amount of shitty alcohol :(0).
When you say change your cotton before it goes black that is assuming the user dry burns their coils during cotton changes, which we just found out from another recent post could be dangerous because it compromises the surface quality and tiny metal flakes could hitch a ride into our lung-regions (and by lung-regions I mean lungs)
Yep -- I don't dry burn my coils when rewicking. I rewick before my cotton gets dark. Sometimes I rewick 6 times a day, it only takes a few seconds and I like the flavor better.
I also change my coils every morning. I have someone who wraps me perfect coils by the bag and that only takes me 2 minutes tops (single coil).
Wow 6 times a day? What kind of cotton do you use. Only thing I hate about rewicking often is that "new cotton" taste u get that only goes away after several drip "cycles". I use unbleached natural jap cotton with the seeds and what not removed which is supposed to have minimal taste and I can't imagine 6 rewicks daily unless I'm chain vaping most of the time.
Yes, exactly. It stinks that this is all so new that we have to wait, but I am really curious about the levels we are talking about. I have no doubt that the sugars are burning and causes an issue. But as a former nearly 2 pack a day smoker... I find it very hard to believe that 15ml of juice with 2.5% yellow cake which itself is only 20-30% fructose is going to do more damage then all those cigarettes did. and I gave no fucks about what the cigarettes were doing to me anyway. I always find that funny.
Having said that, I LOVE that I know exactly what I am vaping, and can avoid or use whatever I want. I will keep using yellow cake because currently I only use it in a few recipes, and always at <3%.
The reaction to FW is more about their apparent lies and misinformation than the actual sugar issue I think. At least for me.
Run the numbers: tobacco is about 0.2g of sugar per cigarette. If you smoked a pack a day, you were actively burning up to 4g of sugar per day. That's a lot of sugar.
Yellow cake is up to 30% sugar. So if you vaped 15ml at 2.5%, that's up to 0.4g of sugar -- 10% of the cigarette amount.
And not all of that 0.4g of sugar is going to turn into acetaldehyde of course.
The risk is way lower, but like all things risky, you have to make the decision if it's something you want to do. I have 25 years of 3 packs a day smoked, I want my lungs to get as little extra crap as possible.
Thanks for those numbers to put things into perspective! Every time people freak out about something in ejuice and someone is able to provide the actual numbers, it always seems so harmless compared to tobacco. While it may not be entirely harmless, if I wasn't vaping, I'd still be smoking. In that light, I can't help but feel how awesome all of this is. How glad I am that this exists. And how sad it is that people blow every potential hazard way out of proportion. It's bad enough that legislators are trying to ban or severely cripple this industry. I very much appreciate all the information about these things so I know what I could potentially be doing to my body, I just wish we could tone down the blaring alarms a bit. Sorry if I'm rambling, been a looong day. But again, thanks for the actual numbers, really helps to clear up how worried I need to be about it!
The key for me is transparency. My shitbanning of FW has to do with that. I also follow /r/keto and I have friends who are diabetics and for a flavor company to HIDE sugar from the ingredients on their pages is outright shameful.
I want the OPTION to vape diacetyl and acetoin and acetylpropionyl. I don't want the assholes in Washington or Springfield to tell me I can't. I want the OPTION to vape sugar, if I want to. I'm an adult, I can take care of myself. I want the option to smoke cigarettes or pop pills or whatever it is that makes people happy.
I don't drink alcohol, I don't smoke anymore, I don't do drugs (caffeine, nicotine only) -- but I want the option. No asshole in a suit should be able to tell me.
But I also don't want vendors hiding things from me.
Can anyone show me the list of which FW flavors contain sugar etc. Or where I can find this information.
Thanks
http://juic.org/flavors/concerning-flavors/
Thanks! I noticed that Grape Soda was on the list of concerning flavors but it contained sucralose. Could you elaborate on the danger here if you don't mind? It was the only flavor in the category and I use it from time to time. It was 30-40% sucralose on your website I think. My recipe that uses it never gunks up or gets black or anything though, in fact it is my cleanest recipe. Anyway, thanks again for all your help and everything you do here!