So I keep seeing recipes with concentrates that have a warning "Contains Acetoin".
Should this be avoided?
This is subject to endless debate. There's a potential hazard, google "popcorn lung", where diketones in extreme exposures can cause lung disease. Most juices you vape will actually contain far less diketones than normal cigarette smoke, which is why I consider this whole thing terribly overblown. But to each his own. Since vaping for most is about harm reduction, some may want to stay as safe as possible and avoid this and many other substances. I suggest you do some googling if you're concerned :)
i recall hearing that the recorded cases of popcorn lung were only from the workers using powdered diacetyl. unsure what bearing this has on the debate.
>only from the workers using powdered diacetyl
And the one guy who microwaved two bags of popcorn a day in his small apartment for years.
The problem with the 'no smokers have gotten popcorn lung' argument is that there is a nearly identical illness that smokers get, and there is no way to tell which it is. It's essentially the same disease but given a different name.
In essence the body can't metabolize or remove the Diacetyl once it enters the lungs, so the more exposure there is to it, the more it builds up, and the higher the chances of ending up with popcorn lung. Though it takes such a high dose to get that far that someone vaping a liquid with Diacetyl for decades would still likely be a very long way from the exposure levels needed.
I believe the mechanism is a scarring of lung tissue which eventually closes up the alveoli.
The dose makes the poison, some juice has tested at very high levels. More on exposure/risk relationship here: http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/2014/178-da-ap
Yeah, forgive me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a case related directly to smoking cigarettes. The recorded cases were all from people working with the chemical directly.
and if the amount in vapor products is significantly less than cigarettes (as has been reported), then a reasonable person would be led to believe that "popcorn lung" wouldnt be a worry.
The sensationalist news stories have severely discredited the media over and over again... I have alot of trouble listening to news bc of this... I mean, if you came to me for advice and I was consistently wrong, would you come to me for advice again? nonetheless, trust the advice?
In my eyes, the bottom line is Vaping is a harm reduction method. we do not know every possible outcome of vaping, but we do know the ingredients in vapor products and cigarettes, and it seems reasonable to think vaping is an appropriate harm reduction model... even if you were combusting juice, would still be less harmful.
>there hasn't been a case related directly to smoking
This is actually not quite right. The problem is that smokers typically get an identical disease, and there is no way to determine whether it is popcorn lung or not. So it's not that smokers don't get it, it's just that they have no way of knowing which disease it is, so when a smoker gets it, they give it a different name and attribute it to smoking.
The choice of whether to avoid it or not is up to you.
The production process of acetoin can also produce tiny amounts of diacetyl. Considering that only small amounts of acetoin are used, the possible amount of diacetyl also in the liquid is infinitesimal. This is why many e-liquids may test positive for acetoin and yet no diacetyl will be detected.
Acetoin itself has not been the subject of as much study as diacetyl and acetyl proprionyl. It has not been linked to any major health issues. It has been listed as a respiratory irritant, but many of the flavors we use are also. Cinnamon & vanillin are two irritants that show up in many flavors.
ah ok I see - so Acetoin itself is not harmful, but the fact that it could produce diacetyl is/could be harmful.
I wouldn't put it in such absolutes. I'd say there is not much research done at this time on acetoin alone, but so far there is not evidence that it is harmful. There is evidence that the production of acetoin can result in trace amounts of diacetyl, and there is evidence that diacetyl can be potentially harmful.
Acetoin doesn't produce diacetyl, as in you use acetoin and come back later and there is also diacetyl in the bottle. Any diacetyl would have been there since the acetoin itself was made. Even if there, the diacetyl is but a trace amount within the acetoin ingredient, which is used in quite small amounts itself.
Situation such as this demonstrate why it is wise to never list anything as "-free"--for example, "diacetyl-free." Some companies test to 5ppm, and show nondetected, and some test to 1ppm and show the same. But with the tiny amount that may accompany acetoin, would these same companies test nondetected for 1ppb? New tests come along regularly in science, which is one reason it is better to not speak in absolutes in regards to what is a scientific question.
But personally, I have no issues with the use of acetoin. I do not use diacetyl or acetyl proprionyl, due to potential health concerns in part, but also because I find the smell and taste unpleasant.
Post from earlier on acetoin: https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/comments/42se3a/should_acetoin_be_avoided/czcugu9
More on diketones here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Deeper_DIY/comments/41t1q8/question_about_diketones/cz4xrka
Our government needed a way to gain a foothold for jurisdiction, regulation and taxation somehows~ Scare tactics always work. Buckets of billions are going to be generated in the prosecution of 'vaping related illnesses'.
This concern was identified by vapers 7-8 years ago. It has been almost entirely ignored by the 'authorities' because Big Food is fighting regulation and the kinds of people who make up scare stories about ecigs are doing it on behalf of Big Money so they're not going to step on any rich toes.
Cynicism only looks clever when it fits the facts.
Acetoin is NOT a diketone!!!
Post closed.
But it may contain up to 7% diacetyl:
>I then had a sample of Acetoin purchased from Vigon International analyzed by GC/MS and yes, it did have trace amounts of Diacetyl! When I looked at the online specification sheet that Vigon posts, it does show that the purity of that particular product is 93-100%. Nearly every molecule that is commercially sold is somewhere in this range for purity, and this seems to be an acceptable industry standard. (Vigon is a very reputable company!)
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/flavorsworkshop/custard.html
Check out glycerine contents (: It has some really scary shit inside in trace amounts.
But it can lead to small amounts of Diacetyl, which is a diketone? If I have understood the rest of the answers here :)
If you're sensitive to diketones then yeah. It's pretty much the same thing as DA.
You can be sensitive to them? Is this common?
There was a recent study on genes in smokers which suggests that there may be high and low risk groups for lung damage, and this fits with the data from food factory workers and also coffee roasting facilities, where there was a group of people who got sick after low exposures for a short time period.
There may also be people who are nigh on immune, but most of us are likely somewhere in the middle.
How would you know about the sensitivities, other than trying it? OR is that the only way?