Lately I've been pondering the idea, as a whole, of trying to clone commercial juice. At first, it seems to make perfect sense -- you have some juices that are really great, so why wouldn't you want to try and make it yourself? But the more I think about it, the more pointless, and even counterproductive, it seems.
Even if there is a commercial juice that you absolutely love, I'm sure there is something about it that you don't like. Maybe there's a little bit too much of one flavor. Maybe the overall balance of flavors is off. Or maybe there is a flavor nuance that seems to be missing.
So instead of trying to clone what somebody already has made, isn't it much better to start from scratch and build something that is in the same "class", but has everything exactly the way you want it?
Of course when you're just starting out (like me) it will be a while before you get good enough at mixing to be able to make something just how you like it. But you'll have the exact same problem trying to clone commercial juice, right? And you will probably learn how flavors interact with each other a lot quicker by building your own recipes from scratch rather than merely trying to copy other peoples' work.
I dunno. I look at it like when I learned to play guitar. First you learn other people's songs or songs you like, eventually your comfortable enough and know enough cords that you can create something of your own. I think cloning has its place in learning.
Exactly this. I started by attempting to clone my favorite juices, or at least get the base flavor profile down. I learned a LOT during the process and moved on to developing my own flavors a few weeks later.
Programmers will know, clones are the "hello world" of the DIY community.
I agree with your overall post because DIY is about experimenting and figuring out what you do or do not like (imo), but people trying to get exact clones makes sense to me because it helps people see "Oh that's what that combo tastes like" or "that's the flavor that I dislike". In the end it's just more information, and more information is always better. But yeah I agree, try new stuff guys.
Most who are hell bent on cloning a recipe love the hell out of that recipe and if they can figure it out so they don't have to pay big $$ all the better.
Remember the overwhelming majority of commercial e juices are not made with the best of the best flavorings many of us DIYers use so you can always come up with something better .
I used to use cloning as a proving device.
I used to get people to tell me what they like, and if I could order it I would, otherwise I would get them to bring me some. Then I would try to clone it as best as I could, just to prove I could do it. After that I would offer my twists and tweaks. As well as some original flavors.
Prove you can do the big names, then show them you can make it better.... Get some original recepies.... Prosper.
I have been vaping a commercial juice for the last 2 years at a crazy high price with the fancy packaging (I throw away) and all...
Why? BECAUSE I LIKE THE FLAVOR!
If your were to produce a "reasonable" clone of the commercial juice at a more reasonable price (without the fancy azz packaging) I could be your first customer!
What juice is this you speak of?
Well, I am almost ashamed to admit it but it's Halo's Tiki Juice.
I buy 4-6 30ml bottles of 6 mg nic every 3 or 4 months at $20 each. I can only imagine what this juice would be like in a 70/30 or a 80/20 VG/PG which is not offered.
I agree with the general point, but I'm a strong proponent of good clone recipes because they're the entry point to DIY.
I would never have started trying DIY if there weren't decent clone recipes for Nana Cream. But then I immediately started trying to iterate on those recipes and make my own, to get more of what I liked, and less of what I didn't like. It's not better to start from scratch to get there.
And that's the pipeline to get people into this hobby. I'm totally fine with the idea of upholding and supporting unique, built-from-scratch recipes as the pinnacle of DIY cred, but that's aspirational. Nobody's going to start there. It takes time, and it takes a significant investment in flavorings, before you can perfect a good scratch recipe on your own. I wouldn't have invested the necessary money or time if I didn't have a good clone to vape and modify while working on my own shit.
I mix a clone of my favorite commercial juice mostly because of the cost. I can mix 300ml cheaper than I can buy 30ml. I tweak it, fudge it, swap one major flavor component for another. I have a large quantity of that favorite blend, but I'm always tinkering. There isn't any reason why you have to stick with the perfect clone. There isn't any reason why you can't use that recipe as a base to work from. That's what makes DIY so great. Take your favorite and make it better/your own.
I think the GOOD clone recipes out there are a good idea when you starting DIY. It is seriously easy to get frustrated by creating brake fluid type juices when you start (I know I did). You get an idea for what flavours go with what, and percentages etc. But yes, at some stage I would encourage everyone to start tailoring juice to their own taste. Personally, I look at a lot of commercial juices for ideas on flavour profiles, and then try to make a recipe out of that, with my own choice in brands of flavours to use and so forth.
It all depends on the approach you take to cloning, and the difficulty of the juice. I learned a ton from the process of my 'Nana Cream clone. It introduced me to new flavors, and new methods of finding flavors. Not to mention, I vape that clone about 90% of the time, and just make recipes because I love the process, and I love the hobby.
I'm only a wanna-be mixer, but I really liked this thing you said:
> you will probably learn how flavors interact with each other a lot quicker by building your own recipes from scratch rather than merely trying to copy other peoples' work.
Eh, it goes both ways.
Like copying anything you need to really study the final product and learn your shit to get there. You can't just go 'oh, this is strawberry custard, I'll mix some custard and strawberry together and that will be it'. Which strawberry? Which custard? How much of each ingredient? Which manufacturers concentrates? How about background notes that may not be obvious at first?
As /u/kbombz alluded to above, you need both to truly master the art, IMO anyway.
I found a recipe, that was a clone of something I never tried, and it looked like something I would enjoy. It was my first DIY experience. That original recipe I used was good, but over time I made adjustments to it and it eventually became my own. It's freaking amazing now and nothing at all like the clone it used to be. The great thing about DIY is changing things up to suit your tastes. Although if I ever found a spot on clone of Zuro's Private Stock, I would not change a thing. That stuff is liquid gold.
I only started mixing about a month ago. I was looking through recipes on ELR and saw that high-rated Unicorn Milk leaked recipe. I've never tried UM but the recipe looked interesting, however all I had was TFA flavors. So I took the UM recipe and tweaked it a bit to match the flavors I have, and to account for my lack of Vanilla Custard. I'm glad I did because what I made was one of the best juices I've ever tasted - miles above the "premium" juice I've been buying. Since then, every time I mix a bottle of it I tweak it a tiny bit. A bit more fruit, less cream, more vanilla, etc. . I feel like with all the changes I made, it has really become something that is my own. I'm really happy about it, considering I was spending over $50 a month in online juice orders. My girlfriend also can't get enough of this juice and that makes me really proud of myself.
Side note: when I use "etc." at the end of a sentence, am I supposed to add another period to it? It looks funny.
I would say that I take inspiration from other juices I like, but never try to actually clone anything 1:1. Just like you said above, there is always something that can be improved or changed to make it fit your liking even more than the original. Obviously this can take some trial and error to get it where you want to be, but that is the process and part of the fun of this hobby. Trying to recreate something you like is a learning process and will help to build your skill set.
I will say that creating something amazing and unique from complete scratch is very fulfilling and I highly recommend experimenting with fund and interesting combinations.
The problem with using clone recipes is that you never have those happy little accidents that make up most of the best flavors out there. These folks have put in a LOT of time experimenting, breaking the "rules", and throwing caution to the wind. In that process, they've learned a lot about mixing. Kinda like when you mix two flavors to make a flavor that doesn't exist, then using that flavor as an ingredient in your recipe. Just following someone else's recipe may give you a decent juice, but it won't give you the experience to be a real juice maker.