So as we all know these new deeming regulations are threatening the landscape of vaping as we know it. The documents from the TVECA are redacted with the full release coming in an hour. These documents are the table of contents the FDA is using to outline their proposal, and are the same documents Greg Conley, Stephan Didak, and other top advocates received so the sources are true. It outlines the complete overhaul of the industry, enforcement, implentation, and defines almost every aspect of vaping as a tobacco product. Shit is very real.
I want to know everyone's plans on how (if these proposals go through which they will) you will prepare yourself for the future? We already know how difficult it is to get the ingredients we need to make our favorite recipes, now imagine how difficult it will be when the entire industry is in a panic. We should expect a LARGE influx of new mixers to come. Are you stocking up on nicotine? Bases? Storage options? Do any DIY supply vendors here have a plan to deal with these regulations and influx in demand? It's always better to be prepared for the worst, and right now there is reason to believe the worst is coming. I've opened up /r/Doomsday_Vapers a while ago as somewhat of a way to store all this information for when the time comes, hoping to never have to really use it. There's also a very demanding call to action at CASAA.ORG that everyone who cares about the industry should be participating in. Stay updated and prepared guys!
Luckily I have no use for nicotine so I'll be fine.
Nope, sorry, according to the deeming regs any component of e-liquid is going to be considered a tobacco product - zero nic is a tobacco product if you can safely assume one can add nicotine to it.
From the document:
>"Liquids that do not contain nicotine or other material made or derived from tobacco but that are intended or reasonably expected to be used with or for the human consumption of a tobacco product are also referred to as e-liquids for the purposes of this document. For example, where a "zero nicotine" or "nicotine free" e-liquid is intended or reasonably expected to be mixed with liquid nicotine, that e-liquid may be a component or part of a tobacco product and subject to the fda's tobacco control authorities. FDA considers such liquids a tobacco product even if sold separately from an aerosolizing apparatus."
The wording in this document is absolute nonsense.
Don't all of the components have much more popular separate uses though? I would imagine this regulation would affect premixed zero nic juice being sold as such but I can't see how they would regulate the individual components for DIYers making their own zero nic juice. Propylene Glycol has various industrial and chemical uses in the production of plastics and food preservation/processing. Vegeable glycerine is also used in food production, pharmaceuticals, hygiene products, etc. And the flavoring is taken directly from companies that already existed to create and sell them for food and aroma production. Aside from the nicotine, I don't see what sort of regulations they can put on the components essential to DIY.
> Don't all of the components have much more popular separate uses though?
Yes. And as long as those separate components are purchased at a non-tobacco related store, they'll be fine. ED and Bulk Apoth for PG/VG - okay. Buy TFA, CAP, FW, etc... from anywhere that doesn't offer tobacco related products or state that they're for e-liquid - okay. Buy 18650 batteries at Radio Shack or illumin - you're good.
But if you have a "vape shop", which is specifically to sell the now-deemed tobacco products, then those same items can be "reasonably" assumed to be components of a tobacco product and now fall under the new regs.
Bull City Vapor would need to comply with all the requirements for tobacco products for all the flavors they sell. But, Bull City Flavors with all reference to ecig usage on it's pages removed, could continue to sell exactly what it does with no issues at all
Did you forget which subreddit you are in? We aren't buying "e-liquids" here, we're making e-liquids from food flavorings. There is no chance that food flavorings are going to fall under these regulations. Same goes for PG and VG. They are not "reasonably expected" to be used in a "tobacco product" by 99% of the population because they all existed long before ecigs were even invented.
I'm thinking about dropping to 0 as well. I love nic so much though.
I came in as a recreational cigar smoker and thus was never addicted. I don't know if that's because cigars aren't inhaled or because they're pure tobacco without extra ingredients added. Probably a combination of the two. I tried vaping some 6mg juice at the beginning and all it did for me is burn my throat.
I'm going to stockpile DNA200 boards until the day I finally get my 3D printer for around $400 & then I'll always have backup mods.
2+ Liters of CXTC Nic + Argon Spray would last me 5-10+ years vaping at 2mg. I still have about 40mls of my 120ml sample from VapeClarity 4-6 months ago? I might get more & start selling blackmarket style?
VG will always be available, & I could just be making herbal lotions or soaps...
I might make an initial stockpile of my favourite flavourings before the incoming horde of newbies arrive. We'll see.
I have 2 pretty nice 3d printers if you already have a file built or wanna build a file I will print any style /color boxes for you. As of now I make a few different enclosures also have made thousands of battery sleds.
I have a mech. It cost $20. It will work forever.
As will my Apollo mod. But, forget a mech when you can TC twisted/claptoned titanium.
2 liters of 100mg nic, vaping at 2mg...
If that lasts you 10 years, you're vaping 36.5ml per day?
Unless my math really really sucks
I'll be fucked, honestly. I simply can't afford to stock up. Which really sucks...
The only real item you would need to stock up on is nicotine, I'm assuming. Maybe group buys would be a good option for those that just can't pay those high upfront costs. All pitch in for a 55 gallon drum and split it up amongst eachother? Though we saw how exchanges like that go down in ECR so who knows if that's a good idea.
I was just browsing the CXTC site and notice that by volume the 120ml samples are cheaper than the 1L bottles. Since I only use a limited amount would grabbing a dozen or so of these and stashing them in the freezer suffice? What sort of shelf life could I expect out of a frozen sealed bottle of 100mg nic?
If Nicotine is the only thing that will present a problem I could probably do without. I don't want to go without it, but I could if I had to. Group buys have gone pretty smooth around here for the most part. Just need so.eone respectable to run it.
Right now, I've got a little over 9.5 liters of 100mg nic in the freezer.
PG/VG will always be available as it was before (places like Essential Depot and Bulk apothecary) and flavorings as well. A shop like Bull City only sells flavors now, no nic, and they're doing fine.
Really, the only issue is nicotine and even after the regs pass, won't there still be a 'grace period' of 18-24 months for compliance? So, hopefully people will have a chance to stock up.
As far as hardware, I have so much stuff at this point I could open my open store. Seriously.
Couldn't there be a work around for hardware? The old 'tobacco pipe' head shop work around has been in play for a while. All mods could come with a flashlight attachment or a lazer pointer cap. Seems stupid but I'm sure that's the way hardware will go.
Weed never got to where you couldn't order a bong or a pipe. This is the same deal, Could be sold as an incense dispenser or something a little more clever. Lol
Wanting /u/flavorah to chime in from a flavor manufacturer's perspective.
I talked about this on the Makers Talk and also the In The Mix podcast.
We have been anticipating this kind of thing eventually happening, so a lot of our investment has been into making juices from the ground up that are engineered for vapor, yet still meeting all the certification standards and requirements of FDA foodgrade. DIY ejuice then becomes analogous to roll-your-own tobacco in the future breakdown.
We will ramp up production and fulfilment if and when people shift over to DIY type products, but remember that it is in many ways a shift in packaging...all those flavors are still being produced and sold to commercial ejuice makers in many cases. Flavor manufacturers will start selling their products in more 10/15/30ml bottles and jugs than in gallons/totes/barrels.
I wonder if nicotine concentrate would be regulated at all, since liquid nicotine itself was produced before the 2007 date highlighted, no?
Everything else would fall under technical exemptions. You can't really regulate what is technically food flavoring as a nicotine product, and VG/PG has uses that reach far outside of vaping.
Given the guidelines in the document the TVECA has released, they can regulate even non-nicotine liquids as a tobacco product. It's completely vague for a reason.
Maybe if someone discovers a way to extract nicotine from other members of the Solanaceae Family, we can remove the "tobacco" connotation from it completely. That'd be a nice work around :D
But diy? I get regulating a final product, but all the ingredients to make said final product? Flavor concentrates that are used for food/candy and vg/pg which have a multitude of other uses? Nicotine concentrate that has existed before 2007? I remember one of my HS history teachers telling me that during prohibition liquor stores would sell grape juice with explicit instructions on "what to do so that it does not turn into wine". I realize times have changed a bit since then but I feel like diy is the big loophole in this whole thing, at least from a juice perspective.
Amazon and several other places sell nicotine to make lasages (i can't spell for Shit). Will other nicotine vendors be able to use a work around similar to this?
How bad do you guys think this will affect the DIY community? I overheard a guy at my local vape shop talking and it seemed like he wasn't very upset about it. Regulation could make it harder to DIY and stomp out some of his competition, I don't know how big his company is but it seems like he's not totally wrong.
Well he should be worried if all of our mods are taken away from us(not physically, but not being able to purchase more). I personally wont be rocking a vape pen again. If i couldn't make my own juice anymore I would be spending more money at shops, but if I'm forced to use a vape pen, then I'll be ending my vape career.
So what do the other regulations pose danger to for those who Vape 0mg like myself?
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No matter how many laws or regulations are thrown at the vaping industry if theres a market for nicotine or DIY supplies someone will supply it. It will just go underground or the black market. Weed was illegal for decades but I know a lot of people who smoked it. You just have to find a connect. Let's say someone in Tijuana, Mexico buys a 55 Gallon drum from a US nicotine vendor. They are going to break it down and sell it back to consumers in the US. Shit you never know Mexico might even start to produce nicotine, lol. El Chapo might have a new industry on his hands soon. My point is when ever theres money to be made someone will step up and fill the void. You think all of these brick and mortars shops are just going to shut down. It's going to go underground and raise prices, but it will still be cheaper than Philip Morris e-juice. You'd think that our government has learned something from the war on drugs but clearly they are clueless. One thing for sure, I'm not going back to fucking cigarettes. /rant
Personally I believe the tax loans from the tobacco industry that states have taken and cashed in on far before the tobacco was ever sold is what is causing this problem. The tobacco industry is now losing people to vape every single day at an alarming Rate for them. They just wanna tax the hell out of anything vape related to try and get back the money they inevitably owe the tobacco companies that they took from them based on future sales/deaths of American people. Stock up on your favorite mods and stock up on nicotine in,the near future, deep freezer for long term storage of nicotine. Diy won't be illegal, what will probably become illegal is second hand sellers of diy juice like myself, but as long as they don't make it a felony I will continue to sell to customers each and every day. I am personally gonna buy up about 5 liters of Carolina nic before the end of the year just to be sure and if I make it through 1 liter before regulations go into affect just keep buying the 1 liter back into my stock and rotating out bottles based on buying dates. That way if and when it does go into affect I will have a decent amount to deal with the problem