So, I did a little B&M hopping today and had an experience that you guys might find interesting.
A few months ago, ecigexpress put in a new shop a couple miles from my house. I've been asking since they opened if they would be carrying their DIY stuff in store, and they've been considering it, which would be great for local pickup. (they carry most DIY gear, decent price/selection if you weren't aware.
Anyway, on the 30th, from 10am - 7pm they are having a DIY class. $10 entry fee, they show you how to make whatever you'd like and offer tips, flavor profiles, etc. and you get two 15ml bottles. (you can buy more if you want) which to me seems like an amazing idea. I get a flyer and I head out to another shop...
This is where it gets interesting. At the next shop I run in to a big name juice maker (BIG, not local) and we talk a bit, and I show him the flyer... He loses his shit! Starts talking about how it's the worst idea possible, DIY is dangerous and it will kill vaping because people will kill themselves with nicotine solution, and want to put a stop to it. Of course the B&M owner agrees and says it will kill people and put juice makers out of business. I just smile and nod, holding back seething contempt, and walk away.
How do we feel about this? I think they are really afraid of DIY stealing their business. Unfortunately, he's kind of a big deal, and is a major player in the advocacy scene, so if he gets the other businesses to follow suit, where does that leave us. I understand that business is business, but with people like this being involved most heavily in advocacy, do we have to worry that they'll be the reason we won't be able to buy DIY stuff in the future?
Sorry for the rant, but I thought you guys might enjoy the story.
TL;DR : Big name in the juice industry tells me that DIY is dangerous and will destroy vaping, vows to stop DIY classes.
And who is this big wig so we can start cloning all their juice?
I love to tell you, but I don't need the drama that would come from that, lol. I've always had a tendency to call people on their shit, and it never ends well.
It's hard being the designated asshole but someone's got to do it :)
You have no idea, I'm almost always that guy, lol. I've already pissed some people off around here, and I still want to play in the local vape politics game a bit. I do believe that that would be game over for me, lol.
We'll see how I feel if the DIY class gets cancelled. The place running it sells the guys juice, so I have a feeling it will be a "cancel it or I pull my product" which may not go in their favor. I plan on giving the shop a heads up and seeing if anything has been said yet.
Personally, I don't think the DIY community is big enough to really put a dent in GOOD B&M's. Those shitty fly by night mom and pop places... well... fix your juice you nasty bastards.
Making; candles, soaps, perfume, cologne and lotions is really simple but the market for that stuff is still thriving. Hell, I could make you almost any cologne you like for stupid cheap. You pay $50 in the store and I can make the same thing and amount for like $3.00
I agree - the DIY business is probably NOT going to significantly impact the business of the premium juice vendors.
Your analogy to the hobbyist fragrance business is spot on.
These guys don't see that; they're afraid for their business and probably inflating fears of the not so informed.
So once, in the 60's there was this electric car manufacturer, but the petroleum industry said...
Once, there was this hollow core door manufacturer, but the solid wood door industry said....
Once, there was this digital phone manufacturer, but the analog phone manufacturer said....
Once, there was this electronic cigarette manufacturer, but the tobacco cigarette manufacturer said....
Shall I continue?
Seeing that point of view expressed saddens me, but doesn't surprise me. They're basically expressing fear for their business...
If I was a B&M shop owner I'd be afraid of DIY as well. I don't know what percent of their business is juice, but I bet it's significant...
I gotta say, I'm impressed with ecigexpress doing workshops on DIY... they apparently get it - your chance to make money goes way up when you can find a reason to get your customers coming back for more.
He's obviously looking out for his self interest.
I can't tell you how sad I was when I started DIY to realize that some of my fav juices were literally just one shots. He didn't do any work other then vg/pg/1 flavor.
It's like taking the magic out of tv and movies and he's assuredly afraid that if people realize they can make better flavors (for them) his business will suffer, and now he has that co-packer and his investors to pay.
No doubt he got freaked.
Oh, for sure.
It was just disappointing, considering his position in the industry, how he started out, and the fact that people like him are the ones with the loudest voices and the fattest wallets when it comes to advocacy.
We worry about the anti-vaping propaganda coming from outside, and I can honestly say, that the majority of the hurdles we face come from within, especially from those with the most to lose.
I just stated "DIY EJUICE FTW" on IndoorSmokers review of RipTripper's ejuice. I had about six people telling me it isn't safe, it is for poor people who can't afford good juice, its the same as rolling your own cigarettes, and some people have a life and can't spend the time doing DIY.
People are very uninformed in the Vape Community about Juice.
I am sure they know all about Mods, Tanks, and EGO Starter Kits though,
> its the same as rolling your own cigarettes
You're still using someone else's tobacco in that situation, all you are providing is the paper and (possibly) filter. In that analogy, wrapping your own coils is the equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes, meaning that a "real vaper" would just suck up the cost and buy mass manufactured coil heads. I can't see that as being a popular opinion in the Rip Trippers crowd.
In my opinion, DIY is the same as going to the market, buying all of the necessary ingredients, and making a meal at home. You might be making chicken and rice, or you could be making a 7 course meal. Regardless of what you make, it is your skill, talent, and perseverance that will make it better or worse than what you can get out of a restaurant.
But don't be the chef that tells me I can't make your bourbon chicken at home as well as you can in the restaurant when the Sysco truck is clearly visible around back.
So hes essentially wanting to do what the government is doing to us with almost the same claims, interesting.
It is a fear that has grounds.... But blown out of proportion, in my mind. Using high concentrations of nicotine is not as safe as petting kittens, and some juice makers depend on the margin of one or two customers.
People are always going to buy premixed juice, just like they're always going to buy premade coils. The people who are interested in DIY are the ones who want to tinker with every aspect of their hobby, and save some money. It's not even their target market.
Fucking ridiculous. You're not going to accidentally kill yourself with 100mg/ml nic. And while more and more vapers are getting into DIY, it's an entirely different market than commercial juice customers.
No doubt. I've gotten 100mg nic on my hands and the worst that happened was a headache and feeling nauseous for a couple hours. It's not great, but I think you'd have to ingest quite a bit for it to kill you.
It's really all about personal responsibility, if you are safe, responsible, and do a little research, the worst that's going to happen is that you'll make something disgusting.
I totally agree with the different markets standpoint. I DIY, but there are still a few $20/30ml juices that I continue to buy because I like them, and many other people I've met do the same. Most of your hardcore DIY folks aren't going to buy the juice anyway, due to cost, or not knowing how it's manufactured, etc. so you won't be losing customers you never had.
I really think that the biggest fear is that people will realize that good juice can be made for far, far less than what most companies charge.
One of the MANY common False Rumors from Vape Shops and YouTube Comments.
Others are: - *** 1.) "We only buy from Manufacturers with a Level 3 Clean Room." *** 2.)"You have to have a Nicotine pump to filter, measure, and deliver the nicotine properly." *** 3.) "Only a Chemist should be making juice, and that is who makes ours."
Yeah, and it's almost guaranteed that if they say that, it's made in Jimmy's meth lab, lol.
That's like all the people who refuse to buy juice because it's not made in some cdc facility. I love to explain to them that a good majority of it, and generally their favorite brand, is made in someone's basement, or a best a converted storage unit. I've seen a lot of stuff in my time, and if people knew half of what I'd seen, their heads would explode. But, ignorance is bliss. ;-)
If they are that worried about DIYers then why don't they get ahead of the game and start selling DIY supplies and their own concentrates? It seems to me its inevitable as long as it's legal to make it yourself, not many people want to put in the effort to DIY anyway. Really, if it weren't for the amount of juice consumption that newer devices tend to consume, I wouldn't have started it in the first place. But the prices have not dropped. I used to go through a 50 ml bottle in a month, now its pretty common to go through that much in a weeks time.
It's funny because one of the other large (cough Gremlin cough) local juice makers has starting doing exactly that, and I think he's been having pretty good success, but the personality and ego differences between those two are worlds apart.
The juice consumption issue is huge, and I've seen a lot of companies lower their prices in the last few months to help make up for that, which is nice, but honestly, offering concentrates would be amazing. If I vaped only my ADV, I'd easily be putting down 200-300ml in an average month, as it is, 120ml is easy in 2-3 weeks.
What's ironic is that every single juice vendor was... at some point in the not too distant past... A DIY juice maker.
What's of further irony to me... based on some of the B&M "house" juices I have tried... is that many of them are horrible at it, but still make money.
Some of the folks who are gifted at mixing go on to riches, fortune, and fame... We all know of some of those very mixers on this sub. This is as it should be in our capitalistic system.
Truthfully, I think the reason you got the reaction you did was out of fear for some of their profits... Probably unfounded fear at this point, but with impending Federal regulations... who knows?
On this sub, we all know about the true costs of raw materials to make e-juice and how easy it is to do. Few of us have the skills or palate necessary to invent the next 'Nana Cream or Placid, but all of us could mix a two or three flavor combo that would beat almost any B&M "house" mix.
Although I can't invent Unicorn Milk, I can follow a recipe and undoubtedly tell you that I now make 8 or 10 juices that are better than 98% of the juices I've ever purchased from a vendor... and can do it for less than $2 for 30ml.
I have no way to verify this as I'm not a B&M owner, but I'd bet that 75%+ of a shop's gross income comes solely from e-liquid sales. That's why you got the reaction you did.
Absolutely in agreement.
Just the reaction, and the immediate drive to kill off something good in the community that could benefit a lot of people, especially in the education department (if only...) just to keep a few dollars in your pocket, seems like some of the biggest scumbaggery I've seen. I've been involved with a lot of stuff in my local vape community and the stuff I've seen and heard sickens me, and most of it is from business owners who preach one thing, and do exactly the opposite when people aren't watching. The worst part is that this guy has always been one of the nicest, most generous people I've ever met, and it's kinda sad to see who he really is.