I was posting a response on another sub regarding the regulation of ejuice manufacture, which I think is a positive thing. Personally, I think it should be regulated as a food product so standard food safety protocols are more than sufficient. The only purpose to regulation, IMO, should be to ensure that harmful(non-GRAS) additives are not used. Because of the temp involved in vaporizing I can't fathom needing an ISO certified clean room for production. It's an absurdly unnecessary protocol which tends to be bandied about by higher end commercial juices as a selling point. So much so that local shops will routinely ask about the lab certs. before purchasing a new line.
sorry for the rant, had to unload. Feel better now
When I take my SX Mini M out of the pocket, unseal it from the air tight pneumatic carrying case, remove the drip tip and atty from the bleach bath accessory holder, wait for it to dry, put it all together wearing newly unsealed nitrile gloves, open and drip with my single-use sterile juice bottle on fresh wick, and vape after wiping my lips with alcohol wipes, I'll ask for clean room created juices.
Otherwise, I'll carry my mod around in a pocket, wipe out the gunk caught in the drip tip, juice it up and vape. Probably lick my unwashed hands cause I'm messy like that.
Im in a microbiology class this semester. I took a swab of my juice that I made in my basement and put it on a petri dish with agar, a media for bacterial growth. Incubated at room temp for a week. Nothing colonized and I took zero precautions.
There are plenty of bacteria that are difficult to culture and many different types of agar that will culture different species. Also incubating around body temperature is a better idea if you're interested in the bacteria's ability to be pathogenic. Fun experiment but not exactly evidence of much.
I was expecting a relevant Simpsons clip. You let me down, man.
I completely agree. People go way overboard with the sanitation paranoia. There's being clean then there's the people demanding companies be medical manufacturer clean.
Those same people probably eat fast food every so often and those 16 year olds making the food don't give a fuck. Some of those places i use to work at when i was 16 sure as fuck weren't going to pass any health regulations by any stretch of the imagination.
Point being, it's more of the double standard people have towards it. I would be more concerned about what some asshole is putting into it rather how clean the room is. Never know when some dickhead thinks the color pink sells so he puts pink food coloring into the juice.
But there's a difference between ingesting bacteria and inhaling it.
If you're exposed to bacteria that survives both contact with propylene glycol and its antimicrobial properties, AND with the temperature involved in vaporizing it, then you've got bigger problems than dirty juice.
Yeah, I understand that, but the fact is, not every little tiny particle is being turned to vapor. Lots of people inhale juice straight, accidentally - tank leaks, it got pulled up the chimney, whatever.
It's just gross. I think there needs to be standards. Maybe not lab standards, but c'mon.
THIS is a list to everything you inhaled numerous times on a daily basis while you were a smoker. But now people want to complain when there's a Chance that some random dust particles were in the room when the juice was made. ISO certification is a joke.
I've done some reading the last couple days on this because there has been some discussion on it. Studies I've seen suggest that PG is excellent at killing most bacteria. Plus who knows what happens when you actually vape the juice. Could be hot enough to kill what's left but I'm just guessing now.
The problem is, we don't know. And everyone vapes at different temperatures, with different types of coils.. there is too much left up to guessing. I don't think it's a lot to ask that our juice isn't made in a shack by some hobo with dirty hands.
I don't think we need lab cleanliness by any means, but it would be super great if we had some kind of protocol in place.
I've always thought this too. Anytime I see people freaking out on /r/electronic_cigarette I just get confused. I've seen vendors get bashed for not having "proper" clean rooms, when they're really not going to make a difference.
As long as you're not doing it in the same room as where you take a dump, there's really no problem with mixing anywhere. Wash your hands, dont sneeze in the bottle, and you're good to go.
I think it's because people like to make vaping seem a lot more professional than it really is. They like that their juice is made in sterilized rooms because it makes 'em feel good inside.
Your rant is justified. I think about it all the time.
Stainless steel counters, bleach cleaning between batches mixed, and gloves and face masks and I'm happy.
I don't need an oxygen purge before you step into the room and full bunny suits.
I always wonder about the stainless steel table requirement. Juice doesn't touch the table at any point in the process. Stainless steel is used simply because it's durable and easy to clean, even though it's not as easy to sanitize as other surfaces. People seem to think that a stainless steel table means "clean", it doesn't, lot's of shit can hide in a rough stainless steel surface.
I believe copper is better for sterile tables because copper is naturally anti-microbial and is proven to be better for that purpose than SS.
Sort of makes me want to use brass atomizers.
The sanitation aspect of vaping will continue to increase as company's use that as a selling point for their juices, and pushing out the "mon and pop" shops. So lets be honest .... juice does not need to be made in a ISO6 certified lab.
possibly, but it will increase the cost of their product, and if people can find good juice cheaper, they will. Those companies that do it will still have their customer base, but I don't think it would hurt smaller juicemakers that much.
The main issue is that if they can afford to have a clean room like that, they can afford to push for legislation that will enforce their methods and standards across the board, which will hurt smaller juicemakers. Same result, different route.
IMO Demanding ISO certification would raise the cost of purchasing juice significantly. Not that I buy much, but people transitioning to vaping would pay the cost. I'll just stock up on nic and flavors in the meantime.
You may not be wrong, but I'm somewhat ignorant of the standards of ISO clean rooms. What would be the difference in a clean room vs. a food prep room?
Clean rooms are sterilized not just on surfaces but the air itself is particulate free (to a certain degree, depending on the "grade" of the clean room).
Coming from a kitchen, a food prep room requires sanitizer buckets at every work station, proper food storage, proper handwashing, wearing your apron only in the kitchen, etc. It's more about keeping dirty stuff out of the kitchen and keeping things that touch food clean. Compare these standards to say, how you cook at home and I believe that is the type of distinction between an ISO clean room and your garage. Basically just lots of extra rules.
http://www.terrauniversal.com/cleanrooms/iso-classification-cleanroom-standards.php
A lot more restrictions on air quality, stricter ones on keeping surface germs out
E: like it says in that doc, there's different levels of cleanrooms classification, most juice companies do the bare minimum one (which is still overkill for what they're doing) if they do it. On that note, I like to see that the company takes precautions, just like anyone I buy something to ingest from.
At the prices we pay for commercial juice I think it would be a nice thing to have for reassurance purposes but is not needed in all cases. I tend to think of it like acohol, I go down the street and buy my patron because I know it is made in a factory with food level restrictions instead of going down the street to buy moonshine from someone. Not to say that person making moonshine didn't take the proper precautions but it is more reassuring going with someone that is inspected for proper regulations. My vote is skip the clean room and just make some baseline regulations like hair nets, gloves, respirators, born on dates on bottles, etc..
Nice hands on view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIW7abMnDPM
Interesting though I never said Patron uses a clean room either. But has a reputation for having clean consistent products which I don't have to worry about contamination in. Towards the end of the video you can see numerous people with hair nets, face masks, and goggles meaning that they do have some form of regulation standards that are being met. I will agree that is a bit unnerving to see all the raw materials being handled by hand but at least that is distilled into a liquid not being touched.
The chances of getting sick by drinking something like moonshine with a high level of alcohol by volume in it are slim. The alcohol itself is a sterilizer.
This article would beg to differ http://www.researchgate.net/publication/8253703_Analysis_of_Moonshine_for_Contaminants_
You never know what material people are using for their stills. Contaminants from a human would be very hard to come across in something like moonshine, with a high alcohol content, but alcohol doesn't kill every contaminant known to man.
I agree. I use to work in food manufacturing and pharmaceutical packaging. I think in juice manufacturing there should just be a basic cleanliness like in food manufacturing with sqf (safe quality foods) protocols and gmp's (good manufacturing practices). I personally think that Iso protocols are absurd for making juice. The only respectful benefit from this is that you have a batch of juice with numerous contents from (lets say) lot number 123459, 123458, 123457 and you then run the whole batch and give it a lot number like 12345A. Then you clean up and start another batch with different lot numbers. That's the only upside to iso protocols in my opinion.
Microbiology student here, a couple of times I've considered testing my DIY juice and that of other DIYers I know against a couple of local brands I know are produced in high sterility settings but it is decidedly pointless as bacteria are sufficiently destroyed by propylene glycol and the very very tiny amount of water that makes it into the juice due to atmospheric moisture is insufficient to allow growth or reproduction of bacteria. A juice company that is using food-level safety to make their juice I.e. hand washing, gloves and not making it in an unclean environment is fine. Furthermore the act of vaping it applies enough heat to destroy anything that could possibly be in the juice. The act of simply opening your juice bottle anywhere likely contaminates it with aerosolized bacteria and viral particles. The heating process kills all of it.
That being said, I did swab some drip tips a year or two ago and they're absolutely covered in gross stuff. I didn't want to waste too much media messing around with it but with some basic differential and selective media it was determined that amongst the various bacteria present were staphylococcus aureus, staphylococcus epidermidis (both normal skin flora with potential for pathogenicity), and various normal mouth associated bacteria. I doubt they would really have much of a negative effect, but if you want a point of microbiological concern regarding vaping look no further than your drip tip.
TL;DR Food level safety for DIY should be fine and you should probably be scrubbing your drip tip regularly with 70% isopropanol
Do I agree its an absurd standard? Yes, absolutely. But I also think there should be some kind of standard to making commercial juice. However, I think as a country (USA), and seeing how most of the Eurozone is handling it, the general populous isn't capable of handling that sort of capacity without going full retard. Cue "hurr durr its smoking save the kids derp" arguments as soon as any modicum of control is given.
I for one would love some kind of standard to make sure that terrible shit doesn't make it into my juice, but at this junction, it's simply impossible to regulate in any sane and reasonable manner.
Shit in one hand and wish in the other guys. Also, probably ignore the first part of that sentence lol. No contaminants please.
Remember that all juice companies started in someones kitchen/basement/bathroom/garage. It was like this until they were able to upgrade to what they consider a "clean room". I would make sure that the area that you mix in is clean and not dusty or musty.
agreed. I prepare juice in what amounts to a professional kitchen; stainless surfaces(to ensure disinfection is adequate), good ventilation, and proper handling of ingredients.
These are pics from a Virginia cigarette factory (not sure when)....I (and many others) were perfectly cool with that. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any oversight on the process, but I agree that lab specs might be overkill.
I make my own juice in a clean room that is by no means ISO certified and I'm comfortable with it.
Not at all. It ensures that there's virtually no contamination of the juice at all, something I'd like to avoid at all costs. I think it's very reassuring for a manufacturer to have certified labs. It lets me know immediately the exact standard of cleanliness that any one manufacturer holds themselves to. Otherwise, I'm guessing. Not saying that I haven't bought juice I liked from non-certified places, but I'd rather know it's clean than be in love with the flavor.
I think you have to take into consideration the multiple other levels of contamination you're open to as well. The second a bottle is sealed and leaves the lab, it begins to get covered on the exterior with bacteria. You open the bottle, its on your hands. Touch your cotton to wick it. Its on your cotton. Touch your dripper/tank? Contaminated. Then you're vaping the bacteria from the place of origin.
I think food grade is good enough. We're talking inhalants, and you inhale bacteria all day. Its not something going directly into your blood stream or something.
So I think there should be a standard of cleanliness, absolutely. And lab photos should be posted.
But ISO certification? Eh...not necessary, IMO.
You make a fair point and I do make sure to clean the spouts of bottles/droppers before I use them and while they are in use to avoid a high level of contamination but really it's not about bacteria. It's about physical contaminants. Pieces of plastic. Bugs. Grit. Physical things that do not belong in juice. I agree that ISO is not necessary but right now it is the only real standard that these labs can be judged against. If I could personally inspect the operation before ordering that would be one thing, but I can't. I do however know exactly what goes into a lab being ISO certified because it's readily accessible information.
I may be doing a bad job of explaining it, but my bottom line is that the certification lets me know exactly what goes on in a lab before I order. I no longer trust companies on face value, I've had many bottles arrive in bad packaging, foreign objects in the liquid, etc. With ISO certified companies, this has not happened a single time. That is not to say that non-accredited businesses are incapable of operating in a proper fashion. VaportrailsNW is a good example of this. Aside from being one of the friendliest and most honest businesses I have ever had the immense pleasure of dealing with, they have never once sent me an order that appeared to be of a lower quality than any ISO certified manufacturer. So I do agree with you in concept. It's not necessary but I think it's very nice to have one less thing to gamble on with someone you haven't ordered from before.
> the exact standard of cleanliness that any one manufacturer holds themselves to.
On the day that lab was inspected and certified.
I mean, it would make sense to uphold that level of cleanliness if you've invested in the equipment, and most probably do (more or less.) But unless you've got an independent monitor standing there 24/7 and watching everything everyone does, there's no guarantee that a lab will maintain that level of sanitation indefinitely.
Obviously it would be fantastic if there was some kind of minimum cleanliness standards, but I think ISO certification is a bit overkill and doesn't really ensure anything once the inspector leaves the property.
Out of curiosity; would you demand the same standard out of your local sushi restaurant or the people making your salad?
No. There's already a reasonable standard of cleanliness for restaurants, ISO is clearly unnecessary. What I mean is that ISO is basically all we have right now other than a manufacturer's word. I'd rather the certification than having to trust blindly before establishing a relationship with a company and an understanding of their product.
I ask because my concern is that the juice industry may well be shooting itself in the foot when regulations come to pass by advertising ISO clean manufacturing process. When juice does get regulated, why would the feds do the logical thing and have the local food safety inspector make a visit when they can press the absurd ISO standards industry wide that we have self imposed.
As a juice manufacturer, I have to chime in: There are various classes of clean rooms which are dependent on the volume of air filtered and the pore size of the microbial filter. Granted, there are no gov. mandated requirements so QA simply depends on prerogative of the manufacturer.
Yes, it is an initial investment to build a clean room, but to me, it offsets the cost of a refund of a batch of contaminated nic base and negative feedback. There are enough variables in the manufacturing process (bottles, caps, air-tight seals, VG, etc) that I don't need a possibility for more issues to occur. If a company is able to control a variable, why not?
220 ft. Class 10 clean room. :)
Do tell us about the times you or any vaper has tested nicotine and then sent it back because it was "contaminated". No one does that. Don't be absurd.
As a DIY'er in the past, I've purchased nic base with brown specks floating around in the base. I didn't complain - I just stopped purchasing from them. We can do better.
Is it overkill? Yes. It's not that expensive to have a room built, and as a B2B, my clients can't afford to receive dusty products.
There needs to be something in place to make sure you're buying reliable juice. If someone is investing in an ISO clean room, chances are much higher they're not using Lorann flavorings that contain actual oils, and that they're making sure the correct nicotine percentage is in each bottle.
If I am buying juice, I want that shit as clean as possible. What I make in my own kitchen is for myself alone and is made to my cleanliness standards. As a company producing a product, you should strive for the highest safety and cleanliness standards. I mean, I am paying up to $.75/ml on your shit it better be made in a clean room by people in suits and booties with a face mask on.