No acetoin results.
I love FA but if they are compounding their own concentrates, they can do better than this.
I feel now that they probably aren't their own their own compounders. Sad face.
Yeah, I'm curious why they didn't test for acetoin. Seems like a fairly egregious oversight given the current climate.
Why, specifically, do you feel like they're not compounding?
I just have that gut instinct from asking about certain other aroma volatile contents.
I don't have any strong in-roads there, but my gut is telling me they're just resellers.
Hope I'm wrong. Hope they release more info.
I gotcha. I feel like the language barrier is a big hurdle when communicating with their Italian folks.
You've likely seen it, but this video gives some insight into the factory.
I read an interview with Dr. Farsalinos in which he said that acetoin on it's own is not an issue, but the problem is that diacetyl can be a biproduct of its synthesis, and therefore piggy back onto it, but in that case, wouldn't a negative test for diacetyl make it a non-issue? I don't know; that's what I take from it.
They don't use acetoin in their vaping flavours but AFAIK acetoin is only an issue because it may contain diacetyl. It's not strictly necessary to test for it if you're testing for diacetyl.
They're a huge flavouring company and they do make their own flavours. They've been labelling the diketone-containing ones as not suitable for vaping since 2010.
They give the appearance of a huge flavor company, for sure. I'm not doubting it.
I just haven't found anyone who has actually visited their labs or discovered an address for their labs or disclosed the name of even on flavor engineer who works in these labs.
It's a curious omission.
As for acetoin, it can decompose into Diacetyl well after compounding, too. Nice to know if concentrates contain it. TFA discloses.
It can if badly stored, although it's unlikely once mixed with other chemicals. If you don't know whether or not your flavour suppliers uses acetoin then you need to test for it because batches will vary.
Their English language site is limited and the Clearstream section seems to be down atm, but there's some info here, with names and everything: http://ukvapers.org/Thread-FlavourArt-UK--79553
I still have a MAJOR problem with this testing. They are testing liquid, NOT vapor from the liquid. I don't drink the shit, I vape it, and I want to know if those compounds are present once it's been vaporized. Maybe they are in the liquid and go away. Maybe they aren't in the liquid but appear after vaporizing. Maybe nothing changes. But until somebody analyzes the vapor, the results are incomplete. Better than nothing, but not entirely useful either.
Dr. Farsilinos in his diacetyl study tested both liquids and the vapor. He said the numbers were close between both. So, it appears that nothing much changes when the liquid changes to aerosol phase.
Global Labs in NC will test the vaporized product, but it's still highly variable due to the differences in atomizers and coil/wicking materials.
You know the cost?
I know what they quoted us but it may be in poor form to share publicly. I don't think it's too much to say that it's significantly more than GC/MS on the fluid. If you're interested in testing I can put you in touch with my rep, just shoot me a PM.
Nice of them to finally release the COA's even though they skipped the acetoin testing...
Had only been asking for the last 18 months for them.to substantiate their claims.
It seems peculiar they didn't choose a higher grade lab to provide third party testing results. Nor did they post acetoin results... strange. Expected a lot more out of FA.
Acetoin in itself isn't a problem. The reason it is tested for is because it catalyzes into diacetyl. Since they tested for diacetyl, it kind of makes testing for acetoin superfluous. Of course, there's a chance the acetoin could catalyze into diacetyl after a good steeping, but Linda at TFA says that her chemist told her this is unlikely.
As for acetoin's safety: there were experiments done on rats and the researchers didn't see the same damage from acetoin that they saw from DA and AP. Another experiment here. Quote from the second abstract:
> Inhaled acetoin (150 ppm) exerted no effect on pulmonary function and airway reactivity in vivo;
They have done studies on rats that have shown it shows similar irritation to other diacetyl substitutes.
https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/files/Repot_review_panel_exposure_diacetyl_7_02_2009.pdf
"many scientists including NIOSH scientists have suggested acetoin may be just as harmful to workers"
Read the acetoin piece in this article
https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/files/Repot_review_panel_exposure_diacetyl_7_02_2009.pdf
There needs to be more data on it, but it is pretty evident to me that from its structural similarity and pathway/metabolic interaction in the body being so close to diacetyl the idea that is on the same magnitude of harm to the body isn't that hard of a jump to make.
I think I posted a piece on this awhile back, after that realized nobody really cared, so don't really feel motivated to have a conversation about it. In the juice I sell I have a disclaimer if any diketones are used, but in most of them they aren't and there is a great sense of pride of having the creativity to work around them. There are very likely greater concerns than diacetyl in most commercial flavor concentrates/juice anyway.
Yeah, it seems the data on acetoin are mixed.
>There are very likely greater concerns than diacetyl in most commercial flavor concentrates/juice anyway.
If there is anything more dangerous than an incurable disease that results in a lung transplant or death, then that is indeed scary.