18
Balancing Flavors
submitted about 10 years ago by crosstown_rebel

So,

I feel like after a good month or two in the DIY rabbit hole, I've really begun to learn what flavors are good and what goes well with what, but I'm having trouble with balance. Looking at most of the good recipes on here, I get what makes a good recipe for the most part, but part of me feels that a lot of the more complex recipes are complete overkill for the most part. I get the idea behind most of them, but I'm not quite sure where to begin with balancing flavors. Maybe my palate sucks, but I would really like to know where to begin with balancing flavors better.

I've heard of people using components list, but how does one come about to decide on something like mustard milk? What I'm asking is, is there a more scientific way of approaching these flavors to get a more well balanced profile and clean tasting juice without flavors being cluttered or certain flavors overpowering?

I get that this whole thing will take months and years of experience to really learn my flavors, but I'm just curious if anybody's been using anything out there to find that magic recipe rather than just, "this donut with cereal and strawberry glaze sounds delicious, i'll try these at different percents"?

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22 points
 
by abdadaabout 10 years ago

This is a complicated question that I am working diligently on a video to respond to better.

A few things:

  1. Many concentrates "share" the same individual aroma volatile compounds. If you mix two concentrates that share a common compound, that compound's flavor base will be more pronounced possibly than some of the unshared compounds.
  2. Aroma compounds can change flavor massively when mixed. If you have a compound that contains pentanol and another compound that contains acetic acid, those two combine to form a banana flavor. Oops. If you have one that contains pentanol and another that contains butyric acid, the ester from combining them tastes like apricot. Also oops.
  3. As you add more concentrates, the risk of amplified, muted or changed flavor notes is multiplied. This is why it is not recommended that new DIYers play with too many flavors at once. I always recommend starting out with a simple 3-4 ingredient shake-and-vape recipe. Try it out and then make changes to it yourself -- lower one ingredient, raise another, see what happens.
  4. Different compounders (the companies that make the concentrates that are sold by TFA, etc) mix at different solution levels. Some compounders create very dilute concentrates so that food customers don't abuse the concentrates. Those concentrates might be 5000 PPM of aroma compounds. Other vendors make much more aggressive concentrates which are 50,000 PPM of aroma compounds -- you have to use 10% as much as the weak diluted once or you get ageusia, dysgeusia, hypogeusia or anosmia (loss of taste, smell), or harshness, or soapy flavoring, or just overall a bad mix that sticks to your atty for days.
  5. Over time, basic experience will bring you to understanding how different compounders create different solution percentages of aroma compounds so you have a better idea of where to start. FA is super potent, TFA is less potent, generally.
3 points
 
by To0nMaNabout 10 years ago

This is a great write up that ever new mixer should read. Ive been stuck in bed for the better part of a week and have been reading through some of the books from the deeper diy sidebar. Great information.

3 points
 
by abdadaabout 10 years ago

Thanks. I wrote that on the train lol. I have a deeper vision for explaining this in video form tho.

1 points
 
by To0nMaNabout 10 years ago

I look forward to it.

2 points
 
by Stupidskyabout 10 years ago

This right here. A lot of people post a bunch of shit recipes with 10 different flavors from 6 different manufacturers thinking they're creating some masterpiece and after you mix it you find out it tastes like breakfast lunch and dinner in a blender.

1 points
 
by techbearusabout 10 years ago

On the same thought.. Any reason why pineapple and also Dragon fruit flavours quickly loose the fresh strong flavour within a few days and become more mellow. I have been scratching my head and trying to read a lot but can't find anything.

1 points
 
by abdadaabout 10 years ago

My guess: Top notes on both are harsh but evaporate fast.

0 points
 
by TheAlmightyDabout 10 years ago

I'm running into the first issue quite a bit. I drop each flavour at its percentage into a shot glass and give it a smell if I want to see how the flavours interact and it's given me a pretty good sucess rate of seeing if 2 flavours will combine. Any other techniques you can use other than reading through every flavour you have and comparing their aroma compounds?

3 points
 
by abdadaabout 10 years ago

I use whipped cream myself, or a shot glass of water.

Over time, you start to sense different compounds pretty well. The majority of flavors share the same 50 or 100 compounds, but knowing the strength is a matter of training your nose and palate.

I make more BAD mixes than good mixes because I'm always looking for the perception minimum and maximums, ha. It's amazing how much variance even 0.1% can be. Much worse when mixing individual aroma compounds, where 30PPM is heaven but 40PPM is anal fissure.

1 points
 
by TheAlmightyDabout 10 years ago

Whipped cream? What does that entale?

I feel I'm developing that sense at the moment, I have most of TFA's fruit flavours down and most of their creams. Not much past that at the moment though.

6 points
 
by skiddlzninjaabout 10 years agoFrugivore

I haven't been doing this for even a year yet, and I feel I have a good grasp on what you're searching for.

The trick is: help others as much as you can. It's surprising how much this expands your own knowledge. Even when I only had 5 flavors that I had ever used, I still helped people when those flavors came up in a question. From there, people would reply to me, adding their own experience to the comment, or correct me, or completely agree with me. Either way it turned out, I was learning at an incredible pace. Most of my knowledge doesn't come from hours locked away in my mixing room, experimenting with flavors, but from everyone here sharing their own knowledge with me.

By far the quickest way to become comfortable with your mixes is to help others whenever possible. The knowledge gained is absolutely priceless.

9 points
 
by Botboy141about 10 years agoGunner's Gold Gourmet E-Juice

I corrected whatever tard downvoted this post.

I can confidently say that I've learned 75% of what I know about making juice from /r/diy_ejuice solely. Much of that learning and inspiration comes from sharing my ideas, thoughts and experiences with others.

The other 25% I've learned has come from dumping probably close to 10 GALLONS of juice down the drain.

Sharing my knowledge makes me a better mixer.

3 points
 
by skiddlzninjaabout 10 years agoFrugivore

I just cleared out my "failed creations" box and it took half a 25gn trash can. So many bottles, but such a hassle to empty and disassemble them. :,( RIP

And thank you for the upvote, apparently I have some folks that don't quite like me :P

3 points
 
by Botboy141about 10 years agoGunner's Gold Gourmet E-Juice

Yeah the worst is emptying the bottles before pitching them...takes way too long...

2 points
 
by happinessanddisasterabout 10 years ago

I'd agree with this. I'm not in a place yet to offer much help to others, but with the ridiculous amount of information in this sub, I've made three adv-worthy recipes from scratch in the month-ish since I started mixing.

I also find the "average use in mixes" stats on e-liquid-recipes.com gives me a great starting point when I'm looking to mix something new. For example, tonight I decided to start work on a Lateralus clone. I sniffed the papaya and orange flavours I already have, picked the ones that smelled most likely, and went with the average mix percentages from ELR since I haven't worked with either of the winners before. I mixed 10mLs up and it's decent. Not spot on, but decent. While tasting that, I decided I want to try a papaya mint whipped cream combo. That's on deck for my next days off!

1 points
 
by beezwacksabout 10 years agoOne of "The Damned"

So, in the interest of teaching...when you go to ELR and get the average uses in mixes...that doesn't mean a standalone, right?

Like, you might use 15% of vanilla swirl in a standalone, but most recipes are between 1-4% in reality.

Is that what the average use in mixes does?

1 points
 
by skiddlzninjaabout 10 years agoFrugivore

It's an average of any and all recipes containing that flavor. Some have standalone recipes, and that may skew your number a bit. I stick to finding the flavor I wish to use in a recipe post, where someone takes the time to explain their flavors and development. Threads like that are some of the best sources of knowledge you'll find on this website.

1 points
 
by happinessanddisasterabout 10 years ago

ELR gives you both, actually. I don't trust the standalone ones because they vary wildly. But if you click on a particular flavour, just underneath you'll see a little table. The left side has average mix percentages and the right side has average standalone percentages.

Dot1mL does something similar but it's represented in a line graph, which I also find helpful.

1 points
 
by skiddlzninjaabout 10 years agoFrugivore

That's great man. And just help whenever you can! Throw your ideas at people when asking about a flavor that you're used to. You'll quickly find your knowledge base growing, and it's great for your reputation on this subreddit.

1 points
 
by happinessanddisasterabout 10 years ago

My brain can hardly hold all the info I've found on this sub! I'm pretty sure I've finally forgotten my childhood phone number to make space for flavour notes.

2 points
 
by five_magicsabout 10 years agoMixologist

I second that. I personally don't even try every flavors alone in testers. I smell it, try it in a mix and go from there, but that's me.

4 points
 
by sgtsadsackabout 10 years ago

I've been DiY'ing for a few months now but honestly I cannot say I have learned much.

I've learned that poking around the Internet will lead to a lot of other people's opinions, recipes, and reviews on flavors. I say I haven't learned much because I seem to be afraid (?) to dump a lot of money on certain flavors that I have no idea about. Although, my collection has grown to about 25-30 flavors but to date I only have two ADV's. Those are adapted from someone else's recipes, I just changed the %'s to fit my vape style. I tend to try for more flavor builds.

Any how, I mixed up 5 new recipes today and will wait on them a few days to test them. I pulled out all my flavors today, and almost had zero inspiration to figure out how to make something work. They all felt very clunky, and not imaginative enough to blend together. I feel I have decent building blocks, but no main structure. I also have a weird quirk about sweeteners. I Have had bad luck with EM as gunking up my coils way sooner than I would like to clean. I feel the cleaner the juice the better. I typically stay away from diacetyl as well and that makes a lot of people's recipies a little more difficult. So that being said it's a grind, just need to put some energy into it.

That is what I am trying to find. So , as usual abada's info helped, but OP I can relate. I just may be late to the party.

Edit :Sorry for the rant, this all seemed to come out.

2 points
 
by coop34about 10 years ago

I have been trying to frame this same question myself....

1 points
 
by tournantabout 10 years agoMixologist

Personally, I fall back on my culinary experience to guide me about 70% of the way to a finished juice. (Keeping in mind that flavor concentrates almost never work in the same way the food does, but also sometimes ignoring that fact to keep from getting discouraged) The rest is a combination of trial-and-error, experimentation, inspiration, recipe research and happy accidents. The exact same process I use to create a dish. It ain't pretty, economical or easy but that's how I do it.

1 points
 
by five_magicsabout 10 years agoMixologist

Start with simple mixes, like 2 or 3 flavors. Let it steep a few days, try it. If it's not exactly what you're looking for, tweak it a little bit. Rinse and repeat.

Most of my mixes start like a blind shot; "Hmmm these could taste good together." or "I'd like a blueberries and cream mix". I try it, sometimes the profile is good enough for me to make it a WIP, sometimes it's not and I move on to another. I usually have a few of these prototypes steeping at all times.

When I do get a good profile, it's trial and error. For example if you want a strawberry and cream, pick a strawberry flavor you like and try it with a single cream or two of them. Eventually you should have the knowledge of what most of your flavors taste like and react in a mix. For example, Pear tastes like pear, sure. But add 1% of it to an apple mix to help the apple come out more. Same goes with Lemon and fruits in general.

But to answer your question, in my case it's mostly trial and error.

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