Long post about something that bothered me recently. I sometimes see posts about people asking for juice, or asking for recommendations on what juice to buy. The post will usually go something like "Looking for a great banana cream flavor, any recommendations?". And then you would see a ton of comments from users exclaiming their love for their favorite juices and brands. And then you'll see a comment in the depths of the post saying, "so-and-so sells his DIY flavors and it's excellent...". In which the OP will then comment "not really looking to buy a DIY, looking for premium brands".
I will then listen to various podcasts, and videos related to vaping, and often hear things such as "It's not some dinky DIY bathtub juice..." or "I would never buy a juice some guy makes in his basement". It goes on. There's countless posts and writeups about how DIY is of a lesser quality than these "premium" vendors. And that when you get into DIY it's because you're cheap and can't afford to pay for these vendors. It seems the general consensus from the mainstream vaping community is that DIY E-liquid is a means to someone who is broke, doesn't care about the quality of their product, and just wants a carrier for their nicotine fix. It seems the general consensus is that DIY e-liquid is inferior to these "premium" vendors and that you can never get the same quality from an at home mixer, than you can from someone paid to mix.
This is simply not the case.
In my recent video I talked about the ridiculous haul I brought back from the NJ Vape Expo. I came home with around 40 bottles of eliquid all from different vendors and juice makers. I was sure, that at least half of them I would like and were at least vapeable. But no...out of all the juice that were at my disposal, only about 6-7 were actually vapeable let alone good. What's good? Well to me, it's an ejuice that I can enjoy every time I go to vape it. There's no "adjustment period", there is no steep required, it's clean and not harsh, and it's overall just tasty. Enjoyable. We can get more into what's a good ejuice, as it's not really a simple answer, but the outcome should always be the same. A tasty and enjoyable flavor every time.
So how is it that 85% of my juices do not fall into this category? How is it possible these companies spend thousands of dollars and then put out a product that isn't even vapeable? How is it possible a company with a fucking ISO 8 lab can put out something harsh and peppery? Is it me? Am I just too picky, or too pretentious to understand the profiles these companies are trying to get me to taste? Well I think I have an answer.
Look at the critically acclaimed juice vendors that are out. Bombies, Vapor Chef, Adirondack, Labrat, Murdock. What do they all have in common? They were all juicemakers and mixers before they started a company. These were people who took the time and effort in finding new and exciting flavors that blend flawlessly with eachother. These were people who LOVED the act of mixing and the flavor of eliquids, and wanted to share this with their peers. They loved the mixing game more than they loved the actual industry. And they became successful because of this.
Well recently, it's been the other way around. People see a "fun new market" and think of a "cool industry" to be apart of. So they think, how can we get into this market and make some money, and almost always they land on juice vending. It's easy, cheap, and EXTREMELY profitable. So what do they do, they spend thousands of dollars setting up a cool website, social medias, the coolest packaging, the most gimmicky marketing. They spend all this time and money trying to become the "coolest" vaping vendor. The absolute last fucking thing they think of is the actual taste and quality of their juices. I'm positive most of them go "hey lets mix this banana with this chocolate, for a banana chocolate" and then write an insanely inaccurate description of the product. "A deliciously creamy ripe banana infused with almond and pistachio on top of a warm home baked chocolate brownie". Nah you fucking idiot, you just mixed up LA Banana Cream and some shitty chocolate flavor. And the problem is, everyone just eats it all up. Vapers are the most easily swayed and gullible fuckers on the planet, and these companies are taking full advantage of this.
The fact that these companies have pretty labels, and a popular Instagram, does not mean their product is in ANY WAY premium. It really pisses me off how this community, the DIY mixing community, is seen as a lesser and inferior sect of juicemaking. No, we don't have access to labs and clean rooms but there are tons of members here that are putting out STUNNING recipes, recipes that rival the likes of The Vapor Chef and The Vaping Rabbit. We make sure our flavors are mixed in as clean as an environment we have, and take necessary precautions to make a safe product and this is for our own consumption. There are members here getting into the deep chemistry of juicemaking posting their findings on how to further tweak base flavorings, or how to produce the cleanest nicotine. There are tons of members here who know the entire TFA flavor index like the back of their hand, and can mix up any concoction you throw at them. The people of this community are apart of this community because they love the act of juicemaking. We love finding what flavor profiles work together, or finding new and exciting ways to produce old classic flavors. We love creating new and invigorating eliquids for eachother and actually care about the quality of what we produce. There is no dollar attached to this obsession I have, I really love making a great eliquid, and passing the recipe on to others to have them enjoy it as well. If this was about profit, most of us would just keep quiet and start a fucking juice line. But we don't we share our findings with each other to benefit the scene we have created.
The boutique flavor game started as a DIY movement from vapers sick and tired of the terrible products that were available. The OG's of the game found ways to create elqiuids themselves and shared the recipes on how to make them with each other. Once they realized how much fun and easy it was they figured they could sell them to help out the ex-smokers just getting into vaping who didn't really know how to mix themselves yet, or didn't have the time. People took note of the profitability and here we are today, again with a market flooded with terrible ejuice.
Now I'm not blaming vapers, or juicemakers, or even the vendors, on the state of things. It's just what happens when something so profitable is so easy to produce. It's the nature of capitalism. I'm also not saying that there are no good ejuices out there, I'll be the first to admit I look up to some big name vendors and the products they put out. Some vendors really do care about their products and put out amazing fucking juices with phenomenal flavors and magnificent quality. And I'm not saying every recipe or flavor note that comes out of this community is great either. There are tons of terrible recipes I wouldn't even want my worst enemies to vape. What I'm trying to say is that I don't like when I see a DIYer's juice or recipe get minimized as someone who's product is inferior. I don't like when someone thinks that a "premium" ejuice is only something with a $1/ml price point. I especially don't like when I see this community get labeled as "broke" or "cheap". This community has given me a reason to keep vaping. This community produces some of the best content out there, and we need to understand this in order to continue to grow. Once you start mixing your own great recipes, you are a juicemaker, and you are just as much a "premium" as any Five Pawns bottle out there.
This is all just my opinion on matter. I know some of you may disagree and to those people I say mix up some of our members' top recipes. I guarantee that you will be surprised of the result, and find that DIY eliquid mixing is a much more sustainable and enjoyable way to vape. Stop falling into the hype because all it is, is clever marketing and pretty disguises that cover up the lack of care that is taken when creating juices. Keep mixing, stay classy.
TL;DR: Just because you mix your own juice, doesn't mean it's inferior to vendor "premiums"
A slightly reworded version of this belongs in /r/electronic_cigarette/ and is long overdue. It'll get downvoted to hell, but it would still reach some people. I say reworded meaning that it should be explaining to the consumer rather than the DIYer, so much the same info but from a slightly different perspective.
I got into DIY early on in my vaping experience, mainly due to cost, the need to know what I'm vaping, and for the fun involved. Every time I see something called "Premium" my first thought is "yeah, Premium Packaging maybe". That's it. Not to say there aren't some phenomenal commercial juices out there, there absolutely are, but it sure seems a lot of those companies don't feel the need to oversell themselves in the same way as these "premium" startups.
It's pointless. It's like peeing against the wind. In the end it will be you who is wet and smells bad. You cant fight hordes of neckbeards.
Lol I love how neckbeards have become just this all encompassing symbol for the worst in vaping.
as a bearded guy, i do my best to keep my neck clean shaven....you know, to not fall into that category. i laughed so hard that when ECR was on the diketone witchunt recently and while that was happening just about all of the flavors posted in the "whats your top 5 favor ingredients" thread were composed of flavors with diketones. the kicker was that they were all very well known and frequently used flavors in "premium" juice....if only they knew....MUAHHAHAHAHAH
I don't think a defeatist attitude helps, either. Many people will bitch, many will ignore, and whatever is left will think about it, maybe try DIY themselves, maybe support their local juice makers a bit more. It can only help to put the information out there, you just need to keep your expectations in check.
More like this
You know before I posted this, I was planning on posting it into ECR. But I scrolled around and read a few posts and realized that this message wouldn't do anyone any good over there. That sub as a whole doesn't care about the vaping community. They only care about what pleases them at that specific moment in time. There is no need to bring up any drama over there because they will eat it up and shit it out the next day. The people who goto ECR I have found are newer Vapers who just want to have the coolest new toy, or those who just want to ruin the next "bad vendors" reputation, or those who have to tell everyone that they are the smartest vaper in the room. And this is no ones fault it's just im passed the phase of dealing with people like that. And from the responses in this thread it seems like a lot of people are too.
There's a reason why every other day you see some post about someone who can't take it anymore and just bailing out. They are consumers in the truest sense of the word. They just consume and consume and never contribute a fucking thing, until nothing is left but a shell of what was once a great community. And some of the vendors over there take full advantage of this and fill their troughs with the cheapest and most vile shit for the consumers to come and feast on until they are so fat and happy they have nothing else to do but sing their praises. It's sad honestly.
There is hope for ECR. There are great contributing members there, and everyone once and a while I'll see someone posting a cool tip on how to mod their device, or a cool post about someone's study on a new wire. Things like that are what make ECR the place it used to be. A community of sharing and a community that cared about the wellbeing of each other. Even with witch hunts, sometimes they are necessary when there is a company out right deceiving and destroying the industry THAT WE BUILT. But content like this is few and far between now a days. And the overall feel of that sub is almost malicious. Like when you sign in there you feel like at any second someone will stab you in the back. It's sad.
Well anyways I hope you understand why I didn't want to post this over there, or why I will NEVER post stuff like this over there. At least until I see some sort of community over there.
I understand. It's a shame that it's gone that far for you. I see it too, but I'm somewhat selective about what I click on over there so I probably miss quite a bit of it. I try to focus on help threads and question threads, and I promote the idea of DIY to individuals whenever the opportunity presents itself. I can see why you wouldn't want to make yourself a target though. Here's hoping it improves with more time.
On an aside, I think the biggest problem is allowing giveaways in the main /ecr sub. If they forced that to another sub specifically for it, the atmosphere would change a LOT. Right now it's full of kids (and I use the term loosely, they act like kids) trying to cash in on all the giveaway spam.
> I know some of you may disagree and to those people I say mix up some of our members' top recipes.
So yeah I have to say I disagree with the entirety of this message. Not speaking as anything here but a guy who mixes juice for himself (not as a vendor...).
My personal opinion, and perhaps it has more to do with my life view than anything else, but who gives a fuck what other people think about something that I do for myself? There are two types of people that start to DiY IMO. Financially conscious individuals, who by nature I consider intelligent cause they actually give a fuck where their money goes, and those who desire a superior product. If you neither desire a superior product, or give a shit about your money, you belong in ECR with the rest of the folks that tug each others johnsons all day long.
Now when it comes to turning your DIY adventure into a business, that's a different story, you have to establish yourself as a creator of invaluable recipes. But when just mixing for yourself, does it really matter what the rest of the neckbeards think of me or the fact that I mix juice?
Eventually, one day, if they wisen up, they too will realize they can make premium juice, more often than not, better than what they purchase in a store, and that they can do this for less than $0.10 per ml.
Until that day, let them do what they want to do. Let them overspend on premium juice, let them waste their money. They all know that DIY is an option for them should they choose to pursue it, and if they were to care enough to pay attention, they would realize that some of the most popular ECR vendors got their start DIY'ing.
To me, the topic of DIY versus premium is no different than people that would rather go out and eat a $60 steak versus grilling their own at home for $10 that's just as good if not better because they can tailor it specifically for their tastes. High end restaurants are still in business and will continue to be BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE LAZY.
People that tell their friends they'd rather spend the night at home cooking their own dinner instead of going out to a restaurant (when the average crowd is 20-30 year old single males, as it is in vaping) would be thought of the exact same way as DIY'ers.
Why on earth would you want to expend your energy to change the minds of people who think so obtusely?
I don't care what anyone, and I mean anyone, thinks of me as an individual when it is unrelated to my businesses, I also don't care what ANYONE thinks of /r/diy_ejuice if they are not an active member of /r/diy_ejuice.
Just my two cents...
Yeah I see what you're saying. I was just sick of hearing the work we are doing over here getting minimized and mislabeled. I guess where we disagree is that I do care what the community thinks about our work. We aren't just mixing recipes and making clones, but we are finding better ways to produce a better vape. Let alone all of the juice innovations come straight outta this community. People like me and you, and other top contributors of other subs are putting a lot of work into our craft and for it to just be written off the second the name DIY is mentioned does piss me off.
Edit: and I guess I need to mention that im not just mixing for myself. I'm mixing for the people who are smart enough to understand there's a better way to Vape. And I don't want anyone wanting to mix my recipes thinking they are getting an inferior product.
I'm commenting down here because I had a similar thought to /u/Botboy141 when I read your post (but I'm way too new to the whole DIY thing to feel like I have a seat at this table). What I am extremely experienced in is dealing with ignorance from people that are afraid of change. The smokers that say "you know those things are going to kill you {takes drag off of cigarette}, they're full of chemicals and antifreeze and oils that cause pneumonia. My grandma forwarded me an email with a facebook post that says vaping gives you advanced cancer, stage 5 and shit."
I see the people that crap on DIY as being in similar boats. DIY is a scary prospect to someone that hasn't ever done anything similar. The startup costs can be a little bit daunting if you haven't done your homework, and spending $100+ on something that you may or may not like is scary. I know for me I rationalized it by saying "If I spend $15 on a bottle of juice and it's shit juice I'm out $15. But if I spend the money on DIY and I'm terrible at it, that's a month of my vape fund out the window."
I finally stopped lurking and picked an established recipe with rave reviews that makes a juice I know I love. One of the things that I kept present in my mind is that when I started building my own coils I had nothing more than needle-nosed pliers, a pair of nail clippers, a drill bit to wrap around, and a bic lighter for annealing. Sure, I can spend $300 on flavors and scales and lab-grade glassware, or I can scavenge most of what I need and only buy the absolute necessities. The startup costs for my first run of Cholar Bear work out to be ~$12.50 per 30ml bottle. That price includes a digital scale, concentrated flavors, a pyrex beaker for mixing/heating, pipettes and gloves. I had 30ml glass bottles and the better part of a quart of USP VG left over from my previous "I'll just cut this back and save" initiative. My next batch of Cholar will run me a bit more than $1 per bottle, and that's only because I need to restock two of my flavors.
So yeah, I'm the guy that BB141 talks about, the one that is tired of spending $0.50/ml and thinking it's a deal. I'm also the guy that had to stop buying certain juices because the maintenance/upkeep caused by various additives and flavoring is just a pain in the ass. I'd love to get a recipe for Unicorn Blood that doesn't trash cotton in <1 day. I currently have a version of P. Bear that won't have me rewicking twice a week. I'm looking forward to trying more and more as I grow my stock (and abilities). In the midst of all of the negativity from ECR, I feel like I'm one of the success stories for this board, as are quite a few people that post here. We are the ones that read the posts put up here by you, BB, and all of the other "elders" on the DIY board and think "Hey, I could probably do that..."
Just so you know, people like you and /u/botboy141 are the closest thing I've got to heroes when it comes to DIY and ecigs in general. Kind, helpful and pretty much genius recipe makers. Your work on here is invaluable. I donated money to ELR because I use it so much and I'd like to do the same to you guys, and the other highly respected posters on here (I need to start a thread asking for the names to look out for it - /u/Discchord etc). Would you consider working together on an ebook of the top 100 recipes? I'd gladly pay £10, for ease of use and a show of respect.
But yeah, the key is to completely shut our ears to the sniping, the smart people know what's what.
Meh, I'm working on an e-book already that will contain some recipes but only my own and a few perhaps with permission (it'll be a free ebook). Basically just something to send out with the DIY starter kits I hope to be offering soon. Also, something for everyone to reference when people have basic questions, and hopefully something to make DIY a bit more mainstream. It will walk people through everything they need to know to get mixing with the 15 flavors and couple of additives that are included in the kit whether they decide to mix by weight or by volume.
And I can understand that frustration, I just don't bother to concern myself with the thoughts, feelings and actions of others. I learned long ago not to fret about things that are beyond my direct control and not to care what others think of me.
To quote the Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind:
Wizard's First Rule:
"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
(Chapter 36, Page #397 US Hard Cover)
Agree with every word you say. The steak/eating out analogy is especially good. Sometimes it's goodto eat out, as it's a nice experience, but the smart person will keep tabs on the sauces, the cut of the meat, the flavourings, and make a mental note to try them at home. I buy the odd high-end fluid - or used to, thankfully I've got a friend who likes to try them out, then pass details onto me to make a similar, and often improved, version.
Sometimes I go to a shop to smell the high end stuff and see if it appeals, then go home and try to make something based on it. Not really an eating equivalent of that haha, except maybe to look through the restaurants website and see what sounds good.
Wayne is just saying what we all know already (i.e., "preaching to the choir). But, I am sure lots of average vapers aren't aware of exactly how e-juice is made. The premium vendors just throw together off-the-shelf flavorings into big tubs of VG/PG just like us DIY'ers (we usually do it on a smaller scale).
And "clean rooms" are the biggest joke in the industry. For one, they are absolutely not needed. That's not to say that sanitary environments are not important, but a room completely free of any particulate matter is complete overkill. Does the average vaper run to a clean room when he gets ready to fill his tank or drip? No. Then what's the point of mixing in a clean room when the liquid is just going to get "contaminated" by the user? The whole thing defies logic.
Of course, I don't want a guy who just took a shit without washing his hands to mix my juice, but an ISO certified "clean room" is nothing but a marketing ploy. We aren't making microchips here. All that is needed are food grade standards (hint: most food is not made in a clean room).
People used to smoke cigars hand-rolled by a dirty Cuban in some rundown hut, and paid top dollar for them. Now they can't vape some juice unless NASA has created it. People have no idea what they are talking about sometimes.
Moondust Juice, you say? Sign me up!
I liked the rant BTW, as rants go, but I think it is kind of pointless. Anyone who has DIYed for a few months will be outpacing most "premium" shit they've already tried. I was baffled by the raging boners for Cereal Killa. All of the clones taste better! It isn't that rich or complex.
Who cares if the mouth breathers in ECR want their Bombies on their ludicrously over-priced authentic handmade-by-virgins in the Himalayas mods. I've seen your house in your vids; you know what's up. People who really have money don't blow it. It's just plebes trying to one up each other with how fucking premium awesome their life must be with all of their premium awesome garbage.
I agree with you, but I think you keep it too narrow. It's not just DIY. It's much wider. Vapnig scene is taken over by window-licking neckbeards (I'm really sorry, but this is how I feel lately) who give us all bad name. This elitist bullshit attitude keeps away potential converts from analog smokers.
PBusardo told it really well (and much more politely) in his video: https://youtu.be/ztsnljE55zQ?t=1519 here.
We forget that vaping is not about lower ohms or bigger clouds. In the end its about replacing analogs with healthier alternative.
I can't handle /r/ecr anymore. I remember when I started it was filled with friendly helpful people. It was fun community. They ruined it. I hate it. Now I only visit /r/ecr_eu and /r/DIY_eJuice
In those places I feel that spirit of community still exists.
Sorry for rant.
Fear not, for like-minded folks (including /u/Enyawreklaw and myself, the masterminds) have banded together to form a whole new community for exactly our demographic, for precisely the reasons you mention. Give us a week and we'll have enough of the backend ready to tease something awesome.
I will be completely up for this. I actually did the unthinkable and unsubbed from ecr because I'm tired of the elitist bullshit.
Its funny, I was just thinking about unsubscribing, too. I haven't spent much time there, though its still on my dashboard. Every time I peep in, its another flame war or barrage of shitposts.
And its anything but new user friendly, which was always my favorite part of the the sub, how open, welcoming, and helpful everyone used to be.
absolutely agreed. i actually went back and took down all my good DNA40 and nickel building posts because fuck them that's why.
It annoys me when someone brand new to vaping who just wants something better than a gas station cigalike is bombarded with "Get a mech and RBA/RDA!!!" especially when they already said they want something that is simple and pretty much just 'click and go'.
It's like, dude, just because it's what you eventually ended up with doesn't mean it will be the right setup for someone just starting out. They need the chance to work their way up to that. I've met several people who had been advised to get a mech and RDA that ended up smoking again and thinking that vaping is just too stupidly difficult and isn't enough like smoking to help them quit.
But if you mention that on ECR, be ready for a backlash.
I totally agree. I have vaped for 3 years and now I'm deciding my first mech mod. I would keep going with regulated ones, but all those new laws make me bit worried, so I think one mech mod is good to lower risks. It should be sturdy and reliable and work for decades :).
Great video link from PBusardo, I hadn't seen that before.
As someone newish on the scene (9 months analog-free!) I definitely felt overwhelmed by this idea that I should start with a box mod and rebuildables (when I asked for advice). I recognized that I just didn't know enough and wasn't comfortable getting all of this gear when I had no idea of even the basics.
When I went with an eRoll - which I did love btw despite it's limitations - I got a lot of kinda mocking responses but no real explanation of why the eRoll wasn't going to work for me longer term. I piece'd my knowledge together from the smaller communities / trial and error essentially. Now I DIY because it's fun and satisfying, and this is definitely my favourite community along with /r/canadian_ecigarette .
> someone newish on the scene (9 months analog-free!)
That's not new anymore. Some of those people probably even have less experience. Except they threw 300+€$ on "starter kit" and now feel entitled to mock others who did not.
> I recognized that I just didn't know enough
It's not only about knowledge. It's also about entry cost while not absolutely certain it's for you. Some people can not excuse putting large amount of money on "hobby" if they are not even sure it helps.
> no real explaination of why the eRoll wasn't going to work for me longer term.
Because there ain't one. It's personal. What works for one person does not work on other person. You alone can decide if something works for you or not. If big tobacco throw-away cigalikes keep you off analogs and you are happy, it works for you. I think you are vaper then. Maybe you need some introduction for something more powerful, but it does not mean that you are somehow less.
tl;dr for the video... The expo honchos explain that they were blindsided by the 'no vaping allowed' rule, which they blame on a NJ senator; PB says he raised his eyebrows in a couple places (without contradicting their story except by noting that the event was closed to newcomers 4 hours before it was to shut down anyway); then he interviews a young sour batch boothsitter who says 'yes we have changed our marketing and learned lessons,' and PB complains that the vaping industry is being opened to attack by young people; then PB talks about pole dancers present at the event and expresses his fear that someone might be offended by models in bikinis and use that to shut the industry down. Then I stopped watching, skip to 22:34 if you're worried I missed something by turning it off.
As Wayne's partner in our crusade to elevate and legitimaze DIY juices, similar to the image of craft microbreweries in comparison to Budweiser, I suppose I should weigh in here, but all I can say right now is...
We've got a plan!
are you gonna start selling DIY juices from different people on the smog site cause it sounds good???/????
Well put. I attended the NJ vape expo and brought home a bunch of juices (most were giveaways). As you stated, only a fraction were vapable to say the least. How surprising it may be, I never had the chance to try Unicorn Milk. So I figured I would pick up a bottle. And to be honest, I was not impressed at all. Immediately after I tried it, I told myself "wow, this is what everyone goes crazy about? I can mix something so much better than this!" I never planned on purchasing anymore "premium" bottles since I'm married to DIY (happily married) but that last encounter with Unicorn Milk was the nail on the coffin for me.
DIY all day!
I'm picky with flavors. I like unicorn milk but my favorite is MuffinMan and MilkMan. Every crappy bottle some customer brings into the shop that is freaking 6mg nic or artificial tasting or has a bug in it makes me stick with premium. I bet I could save money though since I Vape only 1.5mg. I'm a high wattage vaper.
I understand where you're coming from. At the end of the day, these premium juices are made with the same ingredients us DIY'ers use. The only difference are the recipes. This is where the creativity comes in. As you said, you're picky with flavors. To you, the juice might not be your go-to, but to somebody else it is. If you were to get into DIY, you'll be able to make blends similar/equivalent/better than premiums that you enjoy. As someone else mentioned, it's similar to cooking. It's a skill and an art. Once mastered, you will be able to whip up some good shit. It's definitely not for everyone and it all comes down to what makes you enjoy vaping the most.
I know I could do if. I do it regularly with leftovers, like if I have a bunch of premium cream flavors around, I'll mix them all together and like the results. Say like unicorn milk, mothers milk, cream surpreme...I'll mix them all together and results are great. And I do it a lot with VG. Since I like 1.5mg. I'll take a 3mg 30ml and a 30ml of VG, throw both bottles into a 120ml and shake the shit out of it to get 60ml of 1.5mg premium flavors I do like and also turns out to be max VG how I like it.
So I'm familiar with mixing a bit of my own stuff. And had a small kit from RTS vapes, was ok, just a Bavarian cream.
What's the best site to order from other than Wizard labs or whatever? Since they're all using the same flavoring a from TFA and Loranns it probably doesn't matter what place I order from other than how much I'm looking to spend? Or are there sites that have the best quality for my buck over others?
I support DIY, and some of the people here make juice every bit as good as mine (better in some flavor profiles).
I am a DIYer, I got my start making juice right here in this sub (though most of you would probably recognize me better as /u/Sandman0).
I also cringe when I see that stuff in ECR, but I don't think it's meant in quite the way it's being taken.
You have to think about it from the perspective of people who don't know anything about juice making. They don't know that nearly every vendor is using the same basic ingredients we are. They don't know that some single flavor mixes are actually pretty good and somebody just slapped a pretty label on it. They don't know that some DIYers know far more about eLiquid than some vendors.
To them it's a black box, it's mostly ignorance rather than malice.
That said, I think there's some belief that companies are held to some kind of standards when making and selling eLiquid.
Plus you have vendors posting videos of $100,000 labs that they mix juice in and the general public assumes that everyone in the industry is doing that.
Yes I mix in a dedicated clean room, but it's not an ISO certified Clean Room by any stretch. It is absolutely clean, and cleaned daily.
I don't know how that could be remedied. Education is the only thing I could come up with, but we can't even get a majority of vapers to get involved in fighting over regulation and ridiculous taxation.
It's frustrating.
Anyway, I just wanted to say I feel your pain, and I support you all 100%.
Now, anybody wanna try my new premium juice? It's just 10% TFA Honey and 7% EM, but it's in a really pretty bottle that I have custom made*!
*Custom made by the millions, just like all the other bottles.
i too was at the nj vape abortion and the juice was utter filth for the most part and i agree with you on the whole. HOWEVER, this might be a case of be careful what you wish for. as it stands, /r/DIY_ejuice is a nice place. i don't contribute much here because, to be honest, i'm just not as good as lot of the guys on here when it comes to mixing, but i try to be helpful where i can. I've learned a hell of a lot and the community on the whole, i think, is the best of the vaping community. my fear is that the more people that show up here, the more it will deteriorate into ECR2. maybe i'm just being paranoid, but i have zero faith in the vape community as a whole.
tl;dr: /r/DIY_ejuice = nice place, nice people. /r/electronic_cigarette = insane cult.
Ha!... That TLDR- Is ECR that bad?
The shit-posts, the propaganda posts, the witch hunts. The entire subreddit has just become a shit-show. Jerry Springer in text format. They have such a hive-mind that if you point out any of their hypocrisy, you become an enemy. If I could sum up everything wrong with the vape scene, and put it in an easily accessible place for enemies of the vape industry, I would send them to /r/electronic_cigarette.
I used to work for a juice company and we didn't even mix the juice ourselves. My boss paid another guy to create all the flavors for us. You'd be surprised at some of the other clients this guy had. He was crafting juice for some big names.
I left that company when I found out we didn't even mix our own juice. Felt like a big money grab.
You fucking nailed it. Get past the overwrought descriptions and "aged in oak barrels" theatrics and Five Pawns is just TFA/CAP/FA in PG like everyone else. A lot of these end up being great mixes, sure, but it ain't fucking voodoo
I definitely agree with ya. It's pretty dumb because it's not like we are using inferior ingredients and in most cases we are using the exact same flavor companies as the "premium" eliquid lines. There are many recipes being shared and created by the community that are without a doubt premium, and some of the most delicous vapes I've ever had! Hopefully we can get away from this stigma involving DIY eliquid. I was shocked with your findings at the NJ Expo. I rarely buy bottles of eliquid anymore, since I started DIYing almost a year ago, but when I do it is normally from a highly respected company. There should surely be more of a focus on making superior eliquid than towards just making a quick buck.
Thanks again for everything you have been doing /u/Enyawreklaw/ You have provided such amazing recipes and insight! There's such a plethora of YouTubers doing vaping hardware reviews. I'm always happy to see people focused more on DIY.
E liquid and such turned into a scene due to people's egos. I make my own liquid because most of the liquid out there is unapealling to me. I like a few flavors from vendors but it's limited due to my personal preferences. There's so many vendors out there that try to market their companies as being hard and bad ass like they're a motorcycle gang lol. Like there's nothing about blowing a cloud bigger than mine that makes you a badass. Just sucks that everything that's fun and dandy turns into a scene, instagram war, and having teams....
back to premium vs diy lol, I like to know what I'm putting in my lungs. I buy top quality nicotine and ingredients and stay away from diacetyl and such chemicals because it's my choice to make the cleanest liquid. It's sad that all these premium vendors are being tested and called out. Inadvertently they are causing the progression of the fda slamming their fist on everything.
Maybe a big part of the stigma has to do with the (apt) naming of it - "DIY". Next time someone asks me I'm gonna say "yeah I'm getting into custom joose making"
Came here to post this. There is so much emphasis on the term "DIY" when reffering to someone making their own juice at home. I think to someone who doesn't know, It lessens the value of what we are doing. They automatically dismiss us as vapers who are settling for less to save money. This is just not the case. The fact is we are no more "DIY" than the guy sitting down to come up with the next recipe for the Five Pawns line.
Recently started DIY and made about 4-5 30ml bottles and I am surprised how easy it was to make. I was also very surprised by how good the juice I made is. So far I have made nana cream, snake oil, mustard milk, NY Strawberry cheesecake and bronuts, they all turned out to be very good.
I just got a scale today so I can make big batches. Once I make a cereal flavor I like, I will be 100% DIY'ing my juice. I check this sub more than ECR.
I take notes on all the comments I read when it comes to certain flavors I have. Very informative community. Keep up the great work guys.
[Stop Calling It] Tonguefuck by /u/tet5uo is a really great starting point for a good cereal mix, though I use less fruit circles because it can get a bit lemony. Just another good mix suggestion, though jacker's CK clone mix is good too.
FW hazelnut 2% FA meringue 2% FA bergamot 1.5% FA Orange. 1% Cap tangerine. 1% FE lemon 3% FW yellow cake. 2%
I found this recipe on here a couple months back by /u/jackster. It's friggin awesome. Very creamy milky flavor. From the hazelnut and meringue. I dropped the bergamot to 1% and the lemon to 2.5% and it makes a great shake b vape
Thanks for this great message. I don't always enjoy my own juice but I sure as hell love trying and recreating other peoples recipes.
Could you share a link to the video you mention please? I cant find it :-/
This is 100% True.. I own a vape shop.. Im setting my vape shop up like a star bucks.. Ive only vaped on my juice and thought my juice was good.. Ive tried other juices and there good but not as good as my DIY that I mix up.. If customers like another brand I tell them to bring it in and try to match the flavor for them and I end up making it better then what they had originally. I only charge $10 for 30ml for a custom mixed bottle
Wow, just wow. You are living my current dream man. I've been DIY'ing for a few months with some grand successes and many grand failures. But once I get a mix I'm happy with, the adventure for a new one begins and I love it. I've often thought about doing exactly what you're doing as a business model locally.
Nearly all of the B&M's around here only sell premium juice, with the exception of a couple that offer an in-house juice, which by the way leaves a lot to be desired. So, thus began my DIY adventure and I'm so thrilled I have. Had someone such as yourself opened a retail establishment near me that offered such an excellent, affordable option, I would have most likely never ventured into DIY to begin with.
Keep living my dream man! I wish you a grand success and the absolute best the world has to offer.
I would compare it to cooking. When you start cooking you probably will make a few mistakes, but you'll be able to cook the basics. (i.e. single flavor recipies) Eventually you will move on to trying new recipes, and spend more time cooking and improve to the point where you can try a dish and pick out individual flavors.
The problem is a lot of people aren't willing to put in the initial time involved to learn a skill so they just take the lazy way out and order fast food.
My wife is a baker (by passion, not profession), and she's the reason I stayed out of DIY for so very, very long. Watching her go through the refinement process to get one of her recipes "perfect" just amazes me. How she can take one lick of a spoon and instantly know what a particular recipe is missing, or even what it has too much of, is something I will never understand (or be able to do).
But you know what? Look at /u/aimlessfocus's response to someone looking for a specific flavor vape. That's not experimentation, that's a roadmap. That is something that translates into specific weights and measures and goddamnit, I can weigh and measure and pour with the best of them.
I made my first 100ml batch today of /u/project_twenty5oh1's Cholar Bear. I picked one of the most complicated recipes I could because if I can make that juice, I can make any juice.
I made that juice today, I'm vaping it right now. It tastes like victory.
It also tastes of tobacco, banana, and menthol with a rich and creamy mouthfeel, but the high notes are mostly victory.
Mixing up your first ADV, and realizing it only cost you $1 for a 30ml, is one of the greatest feelings in vaping. Victory is a good word to use.
As of this very moment I have broken even against retail (if I make the full 250ml that I can get out of my first 15ml of DK Tobacco Base). But knowing that I only need to order maybe $7 worth of flavorings to make the next 250ml, that's exciting stuff.
My thoughts exactly, the only feeling that was better to me, was when I had the guys at the quikie mart down the road from my store all hit me up for eliquid after trying one of my experimental flavors.
That and cutting mine and my wife's nic costs down from 200-300(we used to smoke American Spirits) a month to 20-30 a month.
The current beta I'm working on has like 15 flavors in it, maybe we can challenge you with that next ;)
Speaking of Vapor Chef, I have made three very viable clones.
care to share?
I agree to a point. I think most ppl are more worried about the process that people are using...not the ingredients. I've talked to a ton of folks who don't want to be vaping juice that was made with the dogs/cats on the table (which I've seen from a company that sells their juice).
There are def some juice douches out there as well tho
Complete agreement here, and this is also why I don't sell my mixes. I mix at my coffee table while watching craptastic movies. Is a full on clean room needed? No, but I'd say commercial kitchen standards at minimum.
Same here, I got a ton of bottles and the only ones I enjoyed were the peach iced tea from Parrot Vapes and Heisenbird from BIRD E-JUICE. Must be a bird thing. So many of them are high in PG and taste like perfume garbage...it makes me wonder if the owners even vape their own juice. Suicide bunny? Disgusting. I like how Pip's main goal is to "help people quit smoking" then she goes and charges $22 for 30mls. Her main goal is abundantly clear and people eat the bullshit right up that she spews.
I was excited to try many of the well-known juices, and was let down by almost all of them. I don't understand how they're on the market, but what blows my mind even more are how they're so successful.
>>Now I'm not blaming vapers
Vapers do at least 80% of their marketing...you can go ahead and blame the vapers.
> I like how Pip's main goal is to "help people quit smoking" then she goes and charges $22 for 30mls. Her main goal is abundantly clear and people eat the bullshit right up that she spews.
Reminds me of those TV evangelists who just want to "help people" but live in $10 million homes and have private jets. "Help people." Sure thing buddy.
Every one of us in this sub have gotten here for different reasons. Some due to the cost of juice, some as an expansion of our vaping hobby, some because we just couldn't find our adv. Hell, been mixing my own juice for over 2 years now and I still haven't discovered my adv. And I'm more than happy with that, it means I'm constantly trying out new recipes and working with new profiles. Including one I am calling Insanity because it is driving me plum nuts bananas trying to figure out our.
I saw a post about tongue fuck on ECR and was blown away with the knowledge that you could make such complex juices with DIY.
I haven't started any DIY stuff yet, been mostly researching.
But I completely agree with a point here, and that's that most "premium" ejuice in my time as a vaper, have been way below par for what you pay for them. I'm happy with my $8 bottles that easily blow the more expensive bottles away.
Well said, man.
I was at a smallish vape / car show recently, and there was a local juice vendor (moderately well known, but not huge), with a booth introducing their new dripper line. I spent half an hour sampling, they were super friendly and helpful, but in the end... nothing they offered was better than I make myself every day. And this was 20-some new flavors, all "specially crafted and finely tuned for drippers" blah blah blah.
In the end, I did give them $20 for a 30ml, but that was because of the time / attention they gave me, not because the juice was that great.
I've met a few vapers "in the wild" and for the most part, they are impressed when I tell them I make my own.
I honestly don't care if people think DIY is somehow inferior to "premium". I have friends that come back to me over and over for juice that I've made, that they love, and I like the stuff I make too. In the end, that's all that matters to me.
I'm happy that it works for you and your friends. It works just as well for me and mine. But I believe the point here (and I could be wrong), is to make it known to other analog smokers that it is possible to quit smoking by vaping AND save money. Us Juice makers don't want to be branded as "inferior" or lessor in any way because it may steer potential converts away and never have a chance to experience what works for them. Many people tend to forget that most started vaping to quit smoking cigs. I've helped 5 friends and 2 family members to quit smoking so far and I give the credit to the r/diy_ejuice community. Why? Because all of these people in my life tried to quit with various ecig setups and many different "premium" juices with not much success. It was either too expensive or they couldn't find the juice to suit their tastes. When they found out they could make the juice themselves it was a whole new ball game. You can make a juice to the nicotine level you want.. and to your exact taste.. and it costs next to nothing?! Done deal.
tl;dr stop bashing diy juice so we can help others quit smoking
Because fuck you
I agree with you 100% Wayne. And let me add..... I have all of the "premiums" I need with unselfish people such as yourself sharing their talent for mixing ejuice and with my learning to mix on my own. So far I've not purchased one single vendor ejuice that I thought was excellent and that I wanted to purchase more of. And most were just not vapable and a total waste of my money. They are now in a drawer with juices I've purchased that TOTALY SUCK. I gave them all a couple of chances....let them age....still SUCK. I'm am SO glad that I researched DIY very quickly after I quit smoking analogs and started vaping in March of this year. Now I didn't get to try a ton of vendor juice before finding my way to DIY, but I tried enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth (pun intended) for buying premade juice and couldn't see myself continuing waste my money. Thank you for all that you and others like you do for our community. It is very much appreciated. There is always at least one of your mixes in my daily rotation. I vape up to 5 different mixes a day sometimes...don't like rotating just a couple. It's ridiculous the money I'm saving on DIY PREMIUM :)
You clearly care a lot more than i do about what people think , i just DIY and enjoy , don't care if others think my juice sucks , i think their spending absurd prices on fancy labeled juice is nuts .
To each their own , the World is full of ignorant people , they are thriving , i just keep my distance and continue to wear my T shirt that says " i don't give a damn what you think" lol.
Well the main point was that no one should think they are getting an inferior product if they DIY, and to break the growing trend of the higher the dollar the better the quality mentality. And also a jab at vendors to fucking step their shit up.
I agree , if your skilled or follow known good recipes why would DIY be inferior in any way .
It's not , you have complete control as to whats in your juice and can make it come out anyway you want , it's not like the retail end has access to flavors etc.. that DIY people don't.
On another note , i would bet the house DIY is superior to retail juice because i am convinced most retail companies use the cheaper flavorings .
I very highly doubt juice companies are using FlavorArt and Flavorah exclusively . Mt Baker uses mostly "FlavorWest" , it's ridiculously cheap , i would bet most juice companies use TFA or FlavorWest and maybe some higher end ones prefer Capelllas.
This. My short time in this hobby has only raised the bar for me, as I have seen that DIY juices are,on average, better than ANYTHING that I was buying before. I was really disappointed when I recently was given a bottle of "premium" that I used to pay $19 per 30 ml for (I don't know if I should mention the brand, but it rhymes with buttwood). Thanks for saying what needed to be said brother!!
As someone who has literally just ordered their first DIY kit I completely agree with this. The amount of 'premium' juices I've tried that have had amazing descriptions that have fallen short is insurmountable. Plus paying £9 per bottle ($15) for 15ml means I'm actually sick of it. I'd rather mess around, mix my own, be unhappy but be unhappy knowing it's cost me £1 rather than £9 and yes, I can either vape it or bin it and not think that it was a waste of money.
Well said, I totally agree. I recently picked up a bottle for the first time in probably 2 years for shits and giggles, and chose some suicide bunny since I actually recognized the name. It was no comparison to my own flavors.
This is no surprise though, the two shops I've given samples to (just because I like them) both wanted me to sell my product, and the one wanted to make it their house line.
You know, this is the reason I got into DIY and it's the same reason why I started to fall out of vaping as a whole. Too many people making too many shitty product, flooding the market with bad juice and bad mods. I had a start up line of juice that I really wanted to put out for a while and I dedicated a ton of time, effort, care, and money into making the juices perfect. I found 2 types of people in doing so, people who want handouts and people who wouldn't even give me the time of day. I am really hoping for a juice market crash just to keep the good people who care about their product in and the people who see this as a cash crop out.
For now I will make it for myself and my close friends because I enjoy doing it and money isn't everything.
All I'll say is that every time my friend or sister brings over a bottle of "premium juice" I just laugh. I haven't even really dived into the experimentation side of DIY and yet even my few failed experiments taste better than most of them. I mean very famous brands that I won't name just to be nice. It's all a hype train. The next big thing will be out next week and I promise it won't be any better than what was out last week.
It seems like every time I get a popular juice I wind up selling because it sucks. Waaaay to much sweetener or it's just something that I can't vape for more than 2 minutes without being pissed that I have to clean my tank again. Heck, I'm trying to sell another one now. All fucking hype.
That was a great read, and I couldn't agree more. Besides, I think everyone has their own definition of what "Premium" means. For me, it's a juice that's tailored to suit your own preferences, and in that sense, DIY is certainly premium if I've ever seen it.
On another note, I feel sorry for any poor bastard who pays $15 (or more) for a 30ml bottle of "premium" juice. After starting DIY, it made me realize just how much profit e-juice companies bring in, it's crazy.
I just got back from Vapecan and tried a ton of juices. I came back empty handed (somehow I missed out on all the freebies) because I didn't find anything I liked enough to buy that I couldn't make a reasonable analogue of at home. So much of the same stuff. So much Diacetyl. So many clueless vendors (that I'd never heard of) with big fancy booths. So many meaningless names, and meaningless descriptions. Sigh...I'm feeling like a grumpy old man.
On the plus side, I did decide I'm going to add some TFA Cucumber to my next order.
This is why I'm here. My friend and I decided to try to mix our own juices after being just consistently disappointed in the quality and flavors of the juices we've tried. Ive tried tons of flavors from lots of the vendors that have been recommended and only one company has ever been palatable enough to merit a second order. I'm not a wizard, but I have my fingers crossed, desperately hoping that I'm able to get something vapeable. My order should be in friday, and til then, I'm just toughing it out with the juices I have
Having come in the vaping game only about a year ago, everything this rant addresses is something i noticed right off the bat. You should really summarize this and tailor it up for new vapers and post this again in all the major vaping subs. I think it could do a lot of good.
For the most part, yes I completely agree with you.I went to a vape convention and was like.... da fuck is all this shit? This is terrible. Like did they even try it before they sold it?
The only difference is most "premium" juices are manufactured in minimum ISO7 clean room, and as such charge more. Them shits aint cheap.
I think of this sub as an analog of the FOSS movement in the software world. Most FOSS software is better than the bug ridden "premium" shit you buy from vendors. And as more and more people work on the software, the more bugs are squashed and the better things are (Linus's Law). Not everyone has to be a programmer or computer engineer to help.
It's the same with e-juice. The more people that get involved and begin mixing, the better and better the recipes will get.
EDIT: Oh, and it would be awesome if we could get a big "youtuber" to do DIY videos. Grimm Green used to do them WAY back in the day, but since he released his own juice line, that stopped for obvious reasons. Trippers used to dabble in it on his old videos, but he also is in it for the $$ now too.
I have asked Busardo if he would do a DIY video and he responded "I don't have the time or the know-how." I don't know if he is financially connected to a "premium" juice vendor or if he is rich and doesn't mind spending $30 a bottle. Or, it could be he really is just too busy with mod reviews. In any case, it would be cool if we could bring old Phil around to DIY'ing.
Phil paying for juice... LOL!
He says he gets so much juice he doesn't have time to even review it all. And he's not willing to review juice that isn't packaged correctly (which is a good percentage of what he's sent)
Well, I think he does pay for his ADV favorites (those listed on his site), or at least I have heard him say that in a video before. Of course, I am sure he wouldn't have to pay for any juice if he just asked.
I mix because I know what's in my juice that way.
One of the b&m's in el paso mixes in something to absolute excess... Not exactly EM, not exactly sucralose, possibly too much of all/most "enhancers"...
They're juice is very very "sharp" for lack of a better term, and I could see folks liking it better, but vapetongue is insane fast on everything they have, and it vapes kinda "heavy"...
I don't know what they do (they won't say), but I know for certain they aren't just mixing flavorings in...
As far as I'm concerned that trumps public perception or "premium" status... I know what's in my juice because I put it there myself.
I got into DIY cause I've always liked to make stuff but also because I live in a country where most online stores don't ship to (e-cigs are illegal) and if they do it's usually over $30 for shipping since I have to order a bunch of crap otherwise it's way more expensive in the long run, not to mention the stress from knowing the package might get confiscated by customs. I recently found some guy who sells a bunch of TFA flavorings and went on E-liquid Mart since they were the only ones who'd ship here and started mixing. I'm no mixing or flavor expert by any means but following a recipe is easy as hell.
Screw premium juice it's always over priced and 90% of the times it's not good, my dinky DIY desk juice is great and I pay $1/$2 for 30ml bottles plus mixing is fun and it doesn't take longer than 5 min. I'll take that over paying ridiculous prices for overhyped juice and then waiting a month or two for it to ship just to be disappointed by some delightful premium blend of fairy farts and the tears of a thousand unicors IF it even gets to my hands.
I would agree with this for the most part, I've been mixing for like 18 months, and like most of my own flavors. My favorite flavor out there at the moment though, is one from Brew City Juice (actually noname ejuice is what they call this company that puts out this flavor) Bluemoon. What's so great, is I know bluemoon is a ton of different flavors mixed together just right, and to me, that's pretty pro. I have just about every flavor from TFA and I just can't figure out how to make this flavor. If I ever do, I'd consider myself a "premium" juice mixer.
this is some serious shit man. there's sooooo many companies too and the product description line is truer than true. they're like " bite in and taste the fresh, tangy juice of a mango as the juice dribbles down your beard and into your chainmail" on some game of thrones shit.
I think if new vapers were shown the price per ml of pg / vg and flavor concentrate when bought in even thr smallest amount of bulk (say a gallon) they wouldnt poopoo it so quick.
Even a small time operator is spendig more on labels and bottles than juice , last time I ran the numbera on rts 55 gallon drums it was .0003 cents per ml for pg , thats with shipping. I biy 5 gallons at a time , never botherd with the math.
Have the ones making the argument try some of the clone tecipes vs the real thing in a blind taste test and they wouldnt know the difference
I'm on my phone, so this comment will be short and to the point if I can.
This phenomenon is capitalism yes, the same thing has happened to craft breweries, we have a few of those in my small city of 23,000. It isn't good beer, yes sometimes they put out something tasty, but for the most part, the people buying it just like the brand, just like a pair of beats. They wear the hats with the brand, always want to hang out there, talk about it like they know something. I think with most things in the world, people just like to feel like they are having a taste, a personality, when in reality they don't know shit they are talking about. It happens everywhere, I'm just bitching at this point. I have no conclusion, that's all.
I couldn't have said it better myself, I mean it is like people forget where all these commercial ejuice companies came from... They are using the same ingredients we are and they put a 300-1000% markup on the price and call it commercial with a fancy label and cool bottle for eye candy and people are like "OMG I have to try it because it just looks so professional!" I'm not the best DIYer by any means, but I can say that I have mixed up some juices that weren't the next big thing to hit the market but they were definitely better than ALOT of the "commercial" ejuices I have tried in the past. I got into DIY because I like knowing exactly what I am vaping and instead of trying to track down a new flavor to try at some shop on the internet, I put a hour or 2 of research in per day and then mix my own version of that flavor, save the ratio in my ejuice calc and tweak it every time I make it, because I have not come across that one "perfect" ejuice that I have made because the way I look at it is, some are good right away, and some are better a week from now.
Like my strawberry fruit roll up recipe, it is a great shake n vape, but after sitting for a few days its like the strawberry is almost nonexistent. I still have a long way to go I am no scientist,
but for the sake of TL, DR: Premium juice is DIY juice, its not like buying a pack of cigarettes compared to buying roll your owns.... DIY can be better than commercial.
I don't think the average diyer is up to five pawns level. I'm not 100% sure but they don't use the regular tfa, fa, or cap flavorings do they?
They claim they use "locally sourced" flavorings. Since they are in Cali, this could simply mean they are using Capella or any other flavor house that operates in Cali.
I would not trust any vendor that does their own extractions unless they have certified (preferably PhD) chemists on staff. Simply throwing some coffee beans into a cup of PG doesn't count in my book.
Sorry, but I am going to stick with professional flavoring manufacturers who know what the fuck they're doing. Not some random people who throw some random shit in a bottle of PG and claim "naturally extracted." Besides, even when professionals naturally extract flavor molecules, the result gives a lot of impurities (which is why I prefer artificial flavors).
NET liquids are a bit different because the extraction process seems to be pretty uniform and straight-forward, but even then I don't trust it 100%.
No offense, but this is a classic example of exactly what I'm talking about. You feel that because we can mix these flavors at our own discretion, that our products aren't up to par, use inferior ingredients, and aren't as good as a Five Pawns...correct?
I'm not sure either but I think they indeed use the same flavorings. The only ones who probably extract their own flavors are the ones who naturally extract tobacco.
Just FYI, Steamy Vapor uses a lot of his own extracts. You can tell, too.
It's not really a fair assessment if you think about it, to say any diyer is on Five Pawns level. Diyers are diyers because they want to make juice that they like for a good price. I'm extremely not a fan of five pawns' juice. But that shouldn't mean a damn thing to you or anyone else because everyone has different tastes.