I looked on the Additives/Flavor Enhancers sidebar link, but couldn't find an answer. I also did a search with a few keywords and nothing of use really came up.
Diacetyl is what is giving these cream/custard flavors their crazy-delicious thickness and richness, which I am an absolute fan of. However, with any new recipes I am creating, I'm trying to avoid flavorings with diketones as much as possible.
I know that butyric acid is being used as a substitute by flavor manufacturers, but I'm finding that this isn't quite doing it for the aftertaste and mouthfeel that diacetyl gives.
For this reason, I still haven't fully kicked the usage of Bavarian Cream TFA (not the DX version). I'm also using Marshmallow Cap to give the thick mouthfeel. But I'm still kind of finding that the aftertaste of my creams is thinning-out too quickly.
Any tips on this? How do I keep the creamy feel and flavor in a vape after taking a toot? What do you use that is diacetyl-free?
Unfortunately nothing can compare to diacetyl.
That's why I still use cap vc v1, among other things.
Tbh, I smoked diacetyl ridden stinkies for 10 years, no BO, so I think vaping a significantly lower amount of it won't do any harm.
But that's... That's just me.
That's a lot of us, including the science. There is no causational evidence supporting diacetyl causing BO in humans. That doesn't stop the fearmongering that goes on. It's good to be safe but it's starting to look like another cholesterol is unhealthy type fad.
Inb4 JustSayNoToDiacetyl posts a rat study
I hear ya, man. I was a 20-year smoker up until I started vaping about 3-years ago. When I started DIY 6-months ago, I wasn't really up-and-up on the whole diketones thing, but after reading more and more about it and how it can affect one's body, I'm starting to be more careful about what ingredients I put into my liquids.
Just trying to find out if there is a decent alternative/substitute for Diacetyl-containing flavorings. Certainly, I'm not the only one trying to figure this out and am ready to acknowledge that this might be a case of chasing a unicorn.
Isobutavan™ and Aldehyde C-18 (coconut) can both impart a creaminess at very very very low v/v.
TFA sells both but be careful to dilute first.
Woah, you really are like a text book, /u/abdada. Hmm, I don't think I'm ready to be using such stripped-down ingredients. If I did purchase those, what would be a good percentage to start at? Or would the amount be so low that percentages don't even help?
Maybe I will add a touch of Coconut FA to my next cream mix. I've been using Coconut Extra TPA before, but feel that it is too strong, so I've not used coconut since. You reminded me of my Coconut FA, so I'll give that a shot.
Actually, for the mix I created today, I used 1% of Cream Fresh FA, as I feel it has a slight coconut note, but without the sweetness. That mix is currently aging, but maybe I'll make another of the same mix and sub the Cream Fresh with Coconut FA. Thanks for the inspiration, brah!
At these low levels mixing straight isn't easy. Isobutavan™ is used at 2PPM on average or 0.0002% lol. But if you dilute 1% in PG or VG you can use it easier in a final blend (1 drop per 50ml).
Coconut aldehyde is a lot more flexible. 30-140PPM. Still needs diluting of course.
Or just find flavor concentrates that contain these and work with those. Coconut flavor works well at a very small percentage to impart some sticky/oily notes that can be considered creamy.
DAP are the best for the mouthfeel but not the only option. Have you tried maltol (not ethyl maltol)? Or possibly vanillin and ethyl vanillin?
I mixed another 10ml of the cream I was talking about and added 0.2% of Coconut FA. This mix definitely needs a good curing, but vaped fresh, I can tell that the Coconut is giving a slightly oily feeling, as you just described. I always wondered where that came from, and now I kind of know!
I have tried Vanilin, purchased from TFA. I think I may have used it incorrectly (too high a ratio), as it felt like it brightened the mix way too much and left a sweet, chemical-like feel on the aftertaste. What ratio would you recommend as a starting point? As for Maltol, I haven't worked with it and the Additives sidebar link has no information on it. What does it do?
Thanks for your input in this and all of the other topics. I am actually just reading some interesting comments that you have been writing in other older threads.
You may not need to go diacetyl-free since you have some flavors that contain BA. A recent study released stated that BA inhibits the ability of diacetul reductase to be metabolized by the body's tissue. The guys over at /r/deeper_diy are split on what this may mean for the harmful effects of diacetyl, but the study is posted over there if you would like to read it and form an opinion for yourself.
Ah, ok, the way I read it was that Butyric Acid actually allowed Diacetyl to be metabolised MORE readily. I will check that article again..
EDIT: read the article again and also saw a comment I wrote in that thread. I retract my above comment: it seems like BA actually can inhibit Diacetyl absorption.. someone who understands science-speak, please clear this up! EDIT2: /u/nudenicotine also spread the word on said article and his interpretation of it (which I take over my own, as he is a chemist) is that if Butyric Acid AND diketones are present, together, this is BAD. Link to his thread is here -> https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/3b1z8e/nude_nicotine_analytics_psa_critical_info_butyric/
I refuse to vape anything with the nasties in it , just not worth the risk to me especially over a long period of time. Comparing them to real cigs doesn't make any sense , your not on real cigs anymore .
The goal for me is to eliminate ALL potentially harmful chemicals from e juice that aren't necessary for an outstanding vape.
Thats possible nowadays , i found recipes for custards that have zero potentially harmful chemicals and are just amazing tasting vapes , the extra peace of mind in not vaping the nasties just makes it that much better.
Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of e juices are loaded with the bad stuff because they (by law) do not have to tell you the truth about whats really in their juices.
Even the famed "Five Pawns" e liquid had levels of nasties that were extremely high , some higher than even real cigs.
I can only imagine how much of the crap is in the budget e juice companies juices , no thanks.
I would love to see those amazing diacety free custard recipes because so far i came up empty handed!
Your probably used to vaping the bad stuff and if thats the case your unlikely to be satisfied with anything else .
You should see more great recipes without the nasties in the future and don't forget what i consider great will always be different than others.