I think I'd like to preface this by adding that I'm not suggesting using Diketones and related substitutions at very low diluted concentrations is going to equate with serious harm. But that if you are using these compounds exercise tact, look up NIOSH/FEMA safety levels and incorporate that into your mixing and recipes. You can obviously avoid the need to do this by not using these compounds but if you are do the math. It's less of concern with premixed diluted concentrations of these compounds you buy from manufacturers, it doesn't hurt looking up what concentration of they these compounds these manufacturers use in their products though.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docket/archive/pdfs/NIOSH-189/0189-020911-Hallagan_sub.pdf
If you scroll down to acetoin they say "demonstrated similar patterns of bronchial/bronchiolar epithealial injury, inflammation, and repair as those exposed to AP and Diactyl".
They talk about using Intratracheal Instillation, which is a cost efficient industry standard substitute for intratracheal inhalation that give fairly the same result. If you want to read about the differences I attached another study on it:
http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/1/24.full
Found it sort of relevant with the recent thread of Butyric Acid/Diactyl complications.
Basically it would follow that Acetoin and Butyric Acid could be potentially similar in danger when used in tandem. Let alone Acetoin specifically isn't as safe as people would like to believe on faith.
As great as custard flavors are they seem to be too reliant off of compounds that aren't particularly safe.
Wondering if this has already been discussed and any conclusions were made on this piece of research...
The discussion is basically:
Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl, Diacetyl, Butyric Acid COULD pose health concerns for vapors. So could many many many other chemical compounds found in artificial flavors that haven't been studied for inhalation in the manner we inhale them.
We have no confirmation that these substances do pose a risk to vapors in the manner in which they are consumed, we also have no confirmation that they do not.
All I know, is that without a doubt, vaping anything made from artificial PG based flavors is going to be a hell of a lot healthier for me than smoking.
Would it be healthier to quit vaping AND smoking? Absolutely! Is the risk of me starting smoking again if I quit vaping too scary to allow me to quit vaping right now? Absolutely!.
So I vape, knowing I should quit because there are obvious health concerns that can't yet be confirmed at this time.
I also should probably never cross the street as there is a one in 100,000 chance that I'll be struck by a moving vehicle.
I'm just wondering if how much of a concern these compounds/types of flavors are to people.
There are pretty evident conclusions to be drawn that chronic long term continuous exposure to irritating compounds results in some damage to the exposed areas.
We may just find the answer is having a custard flavor every now and then is probably fine but not something you want to make an all day thing or your go to over your vaping experience if we find that these compounds are significantly more irritating/dangerous than other ones that are used. I just don't think we should be complacent with that is currently understood or letting larger vendors of juice deceptively advertise or misinform people that everything is the same or their juice is organic so its healthier type of situation.
Its very difficult to argue that vaping isn't several orders of magnitude safer, but if we could get to a point of very low health concern sooner rather than later the experience and industry of electronic cigarettes improves.
Reading more about Diactyl substitutes and derivatives it seems that there a few safe options.
Most people start vaping to quit smoking.
That is a healthier alternative.
If vapors want to be even healthier while continuing to vape they need to avoid known carcinogenic causing compounds.
The fact of the matter is, until the FDA regulates the compounds used in ECigs, years and years from now, no amount of fear mongering about unknowns of certain ingredients is going to benefit anyone.
People put bad shit in their bodies every day, is every piece of produce and meat you eat organic? Guess what, you're eating shit that is proven to cause cancer.
We can educate the public all we want, but forcing multi-million dollar companies to offer a healthier alternative or replacement doesn't happen without government intervention.
People want what they want and do what they do, no amount of others telling them what they should or should not do makes a difference.
On the flip side, even "organic" foods contain things that are not very great for us. Pesticides ARE used in organic farming such as pyrethrin, which is derived from various rhododendron plants as I seem to recall. Plenty of bad stuff in tobacco, even before BT adds all kinds of crazy stuff to the real thing (tobacco specific nitrosamines from fermenting & curing the leaf). "No artificial nitrates" in your lunch meat? Natural nitrates are used that are derived from celery, which is chock full of 'em. If you skip out on using refined sugar or corn syrup as a sweetener in food you then switch to rice syrup, which is loaded with arsenic.
All of life is a compromise and a risk. I for one will keep vaping the occasional custard and even FW Yogurt and be happy. It's better than smoking the real thing and keeps me from choking people out at work.
> So could many many many other chemical compounds found in artificial flavors that haven't been studied for inhalation in the manner we inhale them.
That's always my reaction when I see people freaking out about diacetyl etc. I'm sure if we give it enough time we'll find out pretty much every flavoring contains harmful chemicals and I'm not convinced these are much worse than some others.
That's it, vaping's too dangerous, I'm going back to Marb lights
My understanding is the problem with acetoin is that it easily catalyzes into diacetyl. Linda at TFA talked about this on her blog. She said she took a sample of pure acetoin and sent it off for testing. Sure enough, it had diacetyl in it even though none was added.
I have never heard that acetoin by itself is an inhalation risk. I would be interested to know whether the samples given to the rats had catalyzed into diacetyl.
The fact is vapors DO have a choice to avoid all these potentially dangerous chemicals in their juice if they have a desire to do so.
I have purposely researched and only bought flavorings that i know do not have any questionable chemicals in them . My juices taste fine to me and i like the peace of mind of knowing that there is no AP and Diactyl in them.
Would it be easier to just vape any juice i want and not worry about potential health effects down the road , of course and if i wasn't able to pick and choose what i vape i would have to do that .
I prefer to avoid all the potential hazards because i can do that and still vape happily . If others don't give a damn and are willing to vape anything and let the chips fall where they may you can do that as well .
Botboy has a lot of $$ invested in this area so of course he is going to try and discredit anything that talks about potential harm . Others clearly just don't give a shit and attack anything that talks about potential risks of vaping .
To brush this stuff off as being premature and not worth talking about is just plain stupid imo, potential risks should definitely be openly talked about just like the benefits of vaping.
There is a ton of newbies out there who have no clue about this stuff and vape anything and everything , they should be educated and decide for themselves if certain juices/flavorings are worth avoiding for them or not.
> Botboy has a lot of $$ invested in this area so of course he is going to try and discredit anything that talks about potential harm . Others clearly just don't give a shit and attack anything that talks about potential risks of vaping .
Honestly, I have very little invested compared to other vendors. I fully agree that there is potential harm. I'm just sick of talking about the same 4 chemical compounds when we have 0 evidence that they actually cause harm in the method and quantity we are using them.
I'm anxious to view what FA's new ClearStream^2 study will be looking at (details coming this summer). I just think it's on the consumer to evaluate the risk of harm rather than asking government to overstep their bounds.
Companies lying about what's in their juice is obviously wrong and is actually lawsuit worthy for false advertising.
Unlike most vendors, I disclose any known acetoin and acetyl propionyl in my juice (it's all diacetyl free).
I'm just sick of talking about the same 4 chemical compounds when we have 0 evidence that they actually cause harm in the method and quantity we are using them.
I just think it's on the consumer to evaluate the risk of harm .
Didn't mean to signal you out but people know you and that your really into this stuff so i'm not surprised by your attitude towards it.
It is the customers responsibility to know and decide what way they want to go , thing is a lot of new vapors come into this industry blind and don't know about this stuff, i don't mind if it's brought up occasionally but i would get annoyed if i saw it constantly myself.
This is the first time i have seen it posted in awhile but i am not on a lot of forums , you probably see it constantly so i get where your coming from.
Ah yeah, i follow this stuff so I've seen these discussions non-stop for the last two years with no real new studies or evidence provided. I agree the general vapor needs to be better educated, but I still don't feel that's on the government to provide that education. E-Cigarettes are not and can not be sold or advertised as a "healthier alternative to smoking". No payment processor will allow you to make that statement and the fed would be inside your asshole in 5 minutes if you did.
It is an emerging industry, I'm less worried about new vapors vaping a little acetoin/acetyl propionyl here and there as I am much more concerned with them going back to analogs because vaping doesn't feel like a suitable alternative.
As I said, I'm all for vendor disclosure and public awareness, but it's really only the people that want to know at this point that will know. Diacetyl in e-cigs or acetoin/acetyl propionyl won't be in mainstream media anytime soon I don't think and that's really the only way to make a pronounced educational dent in the vaping community.
What bothers me more than anything, is that there are 1000 other potential harmful results of vaping that we don't talk about because we don't have evidence. Once again, we don't have evidence on these 4 but it's all anyone talks about. What's the long term effect of inhaling large amounts of vaporized vegetable glycerin directly into your lungs? No one knows and this concerns me 10 times more than minimal ppb of acetoin and acetyl propionyl.
I mean honestly, speaking, when you look at the 7 cases of popcorn lung diagnosed in the US, it was literally 7 guys that were hovering over 55 gallon canisters of straight diacetyl...I've reviewed every study I could find and understand, I'm far from a chemist or doctor...but these things don't worry me at all at this point in time. It's the unknowns that no one is talking about that bothers me a ton more.