EDIT: An alternative title for this post could read: "How to give Mustard Milk a moist, full mouth feel in three minutes." Also, credit goes to /u/Botboy141 for the tips on layering sweeteners.
I'm very new to DIY, but I already have a huge flavor library and have been following along with decent success at some of the popular clones. While there are plenty of notes on additives, they're all general, abstract opinions. This, matched with the exceedingly few recipes that do have additives listed (perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places), has made it difficult for me to learn about them by doing and observation. I think that a lot of the "premium" juices are made by flavorists in labs, and since we only have premade flavors available to us, we must improvise. But I think additives are absolutely key, here. They, along with certain flavors like Hazelnut, Almond, and Marshmallow, are one of the only tool we have to "master" the "mix," as /u/Laughmore put it. This is where my journey, for the meanwhile, begins.
So that's the setup. And yes, I can be verbose.
Naturally, I began my first batch with Mustard Milk (all hail his grace). And five other custards and deserts. Those have been steeping for three weeks as I taste intermittently and take copious notes. Today, I ran in to trouble with almost all of my juices. Dry. Unpleasantly dry. Enough to put me off the juices entirely.
So I began to read up on additives, pouring over my Evernote notebooks of collected opinions and thoughts on additives and flavors scoured from the Internet over the last couple months. I have a lot of notes.
I was able to take an (IMO) unvapable juice and turn it into awesomeness with something as simple as:
- MTS @ 2 drops per 10mL
- EM 10% @ 0.25%
- Marshmallow (TFA) @ 0.5%
That's it. Instantly moist, without too much added sweetness. I added this to Mustard Milk mixed at:
- 3mg/mL nic
- 70/30 VG/PG
This may not be groundbreaking, but it was a revelation for me. I hope this helps anyone else that may be "sensitive" to the dry mouthfeel (of which I still don't know the root cause). I'll continue to share my thoughts and opinions on additives as I learn more; it seems to be much harder to find info on them than flavor mixing.
Thanks to everyone in this community that contributes their hard work. The combined effort here has eased what would otherwise have been a painful beginning to the process and journey of DIY eJuice.
MTS can be useful stuff. I think the marshmallow makes everything better because of the yummy diketones :D
Nice post, thanks for sharing.
I haven't used MTS, as most of the people I know personally who make juices swear they don't use any additives. I have, however, found that certain flavors do have that drying/harsh note even at normal concentrations.
Hazelnut is a great flavor, even to get a non-nutty juice to just the right spot, and I completely agree about marshmallow being sort of magic when used correctly.
I think I'm gonna play with MTS a little bit and see how it works out.
Just out of curiosity, what brand of flavorings do you use predominantly?
Probably 60% TFA, 20% Cap, and the rest is filled out with FA and FW.
Any thoughts on specific vendors flavorings having the drying effect?
I think FA flavors are the overall best but it seems like recipes made exclusively with FA fruit flavors tend to be on the dry side. A little TFA Marshmallow fixes that right up.
Interesting, this is the first I've seen someone say Mustard Milk was "unvapable" – are others having this experience? What's your setup like?
So that you don't waste your EM solution, both TFA Strawberry and TFA Vanilla Bean Ice Cream already have decent amounts of ethyl maltol. I'm not sure a 0.25% increase in the final solution would be perceptible.
Marshmallow adds a bit more acetyl propionyl and acetoin along with boosting some vanilla notes. It's great for adding some body to a juice for sure.
MTS – it's triacetin and helps to blend flavors (reportedly). It acts by affecting the pH of the juice. If it's helping a blend, use it up! Some folks' palates don't take kindly to acidic flavors and MTS or TFA Smooth will help there.
Well, like I said, several of my juices were so dry as to be unvapable, again, in my opinion. It's a fantastic recipe, but there's something going on with the bases and flavors that I'm not studied enough to understand. It's quite possible most people don't perceive any dryness whatsoever, but in my searches and conversations, it seems like there is a subset of people who really pick up on it.
> I'm not sure a 0.25% increase in the final solution would be perceptible.
In that case, I'll just stick to Marshmallow going forward at something like 0.75%. Thanks for the heads-up.
> MTS – it's triacetin and helps to blend flavors (reportedly).
I thought I had read somewhere that Dragonfruit has triacetin in it, and functions as something of an emulsifier. Interesting.
> What's your setup like?
I mixed at 70/30 VG/PG and 3mg/mL nicotine. All from Nude Nicotine. I've been vaping it exclusively on a Tugboat v2, dual coil @ 0.5 Ω using organic Japanese cotton as the wicking medium.
Just want to say again, thanks a TON for all your effort in this community. It's been awesome to go back in time and follow you and others as you shared all the information you've gleaned.
Really. Thanks for the contributions!
EDIT: FYI, your comments have gone straight in to my Evernote notebook on Flavors and Additives :D
TFA Dragonfruit does not report any Tri in its product. Don't know about other flavorshops.
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/componentlist.aspx?sku_search=345270
More precisely MTS (the magic mask part) is suppose to affect the perception of a low pH vape but not actually alter/buffer the solution pH. Also, I have no idea how much, if any at all, Triacetin is in MTS but there is indeed more than just Tri there. MTS is a dark solution whereas Triacetin, and Smooth (which has more than Tri in it), is clear.
Also worth noting, while it may not be the cause of what you experienced, PG has a naturally 'dehydrating' effect. Which is why it's important to drink plenty of water, for more reasons than just vaping!
Agreed, but I'm already someone who carries around a gallon jug of water to drink throughout the day for health reasons. This mix was at 70 VG, which still may be a tad high high for an RDA, but not enough IMO to account for the immediate dry mouth on exhale.
There's something else going here with the flavorings and bases. I'm just not studied enough to know. For example, the Bombies Kiss the Ring clone I mixed up with the same bases I used for the rest of the batch is perfect. No dry mouth whatsoever.
When I become interested in doing something well, things get ... involved. I get the feeling I've a long road ahead of me.
Awesome post, ive been DiYing for about 6months now, and ive also noticed this drying mouth feel coming from certain mixes! ive experimented with Smooth and MTS and a few other additives, i sill can't fully wrap my head around them tho. But mutch like you ive realized certain other flavors make great additives too! You should try coconut extra as an additive as well, cotton candy (which is EM from what i understand) toasted marshmello and toasted almonds also do the same trick! I definitely noticed EM helps with the drymouth.
What i'm still in the process of testeing are Milkstones, do you have any experience with them, basically a premixed and steeped custard base mixes at (80-90%) then used as a concentrate in other mixes. Seems like a good idea, my flavor stash is running low tho so i havnen't tested it out
What do you think about Coconut Extra and Toasted Marshmallow (vs regular Marshmallow)? I've got both but haven't used them yet.
As for Milkstones, that's on my list for this weekend. I'm going to mix up 15mL of a couple variants. It seems like a great way to shorten the curing time of custards.
CoconutExtra in really low percentages is good (.5-3) its used in a few milkstones as well so its handy to have around! I don't particularly like the taste of coconut but as part of a mix in low percentages it adds some nice depth.
The toasted Marshmallow i have no experience with personally, but its popped up a few times and ive been meaning to buy some soon.
use e-liquid-recipes.com they have a great search function to find recipes based on your stash or ratings or what ever flavors u want..
Yeah for the sake of fleshing out the "mastering" analogy, once your flavor's profile is exactly how you want, then think about additives, finding the maximum total flavoring before muting, ideal pg/vg, mouth feel etc. At this phase, it makes sense to make 5-10ml of the basic recipe concentrate, and try at different strengths, pg/vg, and with various trace ingredients.
I'm not calling it the "best" way, because an experienced mixer will consider the whole process from the get-go - knowing how each flavor will feel and even how they will react with each other over time.
This should be considered in the general "premium vs DIY juice" debate imo, as the creative process for DIY usually stops after a good flavor profile is found, shared, and substitutes offered. If you're not OCD or competing in the juice market, this is probably close enough to get happy about it, scoring 7/10 out of it's potential 9 or 10/10. That last bit is real work (or leans on real experience), or possibly luck, and is shared less often.
It's the difference of "check out this song I wrote" vs "download my single for free."
But what if I'm OCD? What then?
Seriously, nice take on the whole concept of mastering. When I ran across your first comment regarding it, it really was a lightbulb moment for me. You're fleshing it out more here is icing on the cake, and appreciated.
I'm still learning about profiles, and with a job, family, etc, just cannot make the time to build coils, maintain equipment and batteries, and dive deep down the rabbit hole of playing with single flavors until I've mastered my understanding of them. That's where you guys really fill in the gaps.
Thanks for all you do for the community!
Marshmalow is an additive?
No, but it, along with a handful of other flavors, can be treated and used in the same fashion as an additive.
I would recommend reading up on Marshmallow, Hazelnut, and Almond. They all have more to offer than their single flavor profiles.
Maybe I'm just being lazy, but where would a good source of info be on those flavors? Just got hazelnut in the other day and had no idea it could be anything other than nutty!
These notes were collected from somewhere in this sub. If I could remember, I'd give credit:
> Both are good. FW Hazelnut is what is used in cereal vapes as it is a bit more creamy. FA is also good but is a bit less creamy and more flavorful like a true hazelnut (If that makes sense). Both have their uses.
> I'd use a combination. Maybe 2% FW hazelnut and .5% FA hazelnut. The FW is creamy and slightly nutty, the FA is very nutty, almost reminiscent of the nuttiness of nutella.