I don't have a PG sensitivity, so what interests me is:
>In an effort to produce more vapor, some users have resorted to lower-PG vapor liquids at the sacrifice of flavor. Five Pawns new PG-alternative line delivers both a classic Five Pawns flavor profile and increased vapor production.
So this keeps up a higher vapor production like VG and boosts flavor like PG? That is super interesting. I'm definitely gonna buy some of the Gambit to compare against the original.
Also
> Five Pawns, the world’s leading maker of premium vapor liquid,
lol
Serious question:
Other than the super pretentious nature of Five Pawns, why exactly do people seem to hate them so much around here? Some of their liquids really are quite amazing, even if they are pricey.
From what I gather it's just the pretentious nature of them and their pricing. It may also be the hype factor. A while back Five Pawns was like the super-fancy, designer eliquid that everyone was fawning over. After better priced, delicious alternatives started becoming readily available (Like when Bombies wasn't a Wednesday morning rush any more) people started looking at Five Pawns more critically for their pricing and several of us weren't impressed with their quality compared to other, similar vendors.
Personally I've tried Five Pawns and found it in line with other "premium" juice that is a lot cheaper. I didn't get the hype. Stuff like The Vapor Chef and DBLiquids and Bombies are very good at flavour while providing a reasonable cost to their customers.
I got hooked on Five Pawns' Black Flag Fallen, only because I have not yet found anything from another "premium" vendor that tastes exactly like it. I hate that I like it so much because it honestly is not worth $30, but it is very good, and I don't mind picking up a bottle from time to time. I don't particularly care for any of their other liquids, though. I'm sure the over-the-top packaging and "presentation" could play into the price a bit, but...I don't need the silly cardboard tubes (although they are great for holding RDAs).
I personally only buy one or two flavors from any one vendor. I try lots of different juices from all over and just find myself wanting one juice or another, regardless of the manufacturer. I don't agree with FP's pricing, but for a treat very now and then, it's not that much more. I would probably spend that money on some other juice anyway.
Their current $0.92/mL wasn't outlandish for a "premium" juice for a long time, although a lot of the other premium guys have gone down to ~$0.67/mL since those days. I think the real gripe is that they don't sell smaller quantities. I'd be more willing to buy their stuff (however rarely) if I could get two 15mL bottles for the same price.
> pretentious nature
> pricey
Also calling your company the "leading eliquid maker" in an article your company wrote about your company is really ridiculous.
They've got some yummy flavors but god they're annoying.
I have 5 liters of the stuff. Tested it on 30+ friends who are all PG sensitive. Only 2 reported back "some" sensitivity. Anecdotal study of my own, take it with a grain of salt, but I would say this stuff is magic, albeit $150 per liter to laymen and unavailable in the US for vape purposes.
Awesome, so you've used it!
How miscible is it with commercially-available PG-based flavorings...did you notice any differences in homogenization quality or time?
I posted about it here probably a month ago or so?
It has an effect on flavor for sure. In my opinion it introduces a "delay" in flavor, if that makes any sense. Top notes seemed less aggressive and base notes seemed more prominent. I haven't done enough to really be able to categorize it because I am more curious about PG-sensitivity than I am about compatibility with flavor concentrates.
Don't hesitate to hit up Linda or Bill at TPA and see if they're playing with it.
I wonder how FP is legally able to use it if DuPont says it's not available for e-liquid.
They're sourcing it from a Dupont Tate & Lyle distributor and likely agreeing to "hold harmless" the distributor. They also probably have a huge insurance bond that the common e-liquid vendor doesn't have.
U.S. Distributors:
- http://www.essentialingredients.com/
- http://www.jtechsales.com/
- http://www.lipscombchemical.com/
Most of your PG sensitive friends are not PG sensitive. It is not a common allergy. I believe it is mostly psychosomatic.
My girlfriend, who has never had nosebleeds before, starting getting horrifying nosebleeds right after she started vaping (with me). Torrential downpour of blood for 5-10 minutes. The doctors had no clue what was wrong.
By luck, she came across Virgin Vapor at a vape shop on vacation and really liked the flavors. Nosebleeds also stopped. She didn't correlate. Jumped back to 50/50, nosebleeds started up again. Back to Virgin, nosebleeds stopped.
100% PG-free for almost a year now, no nosebleeds.
Friend #2 breaks out in hives on her back within an hour of vaping PG. Or actually touching PG that is common in body products.
Friend #3 gets a fever after vaping PG. This is proven by their doctor.
And on and on. I know many vape enthusiasts and I do believe PG allergies are psychosomatic in some cases.
Why do I avoid PG? Scratchy throat, every time. I hate it.
Edit I should mention that over the past year I've had calls out for allegedly PG-sensitive vape enthusiasts and have done a bunch of blind studies on those who wanted to see. I caught quite a few psychosomatic individuals by letting them vape a "100% PG free e-liquid" for a week and when they reported back no issues, I told them it was 30% PG. But a few of them also said "I'm breaking out with this stuff"
PG sensitivites are being reported in the cosemetic industry as well and that's a reason for the push to find an alternative. EU has stricter standards for PG use citing problems with allergies.
"http://www.herbancowboy.com/docs/herban_cowboy_poly.pdf The Environmental Working Group (EWG) Hazard Score for Propanediol is a 1 (= low hazard); the EWG Hazard Score for Propylene Glycol is 3 (= moderate hazard). The score difference is attributable to some allergy and immunotoxicity concerns associated with Propylene Glycol that are not associated with Propanediol. The complete EWG reports can be viewed at: www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredient/705315/PROPYLENE_GLYCOL/ and www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredient/723043/PROPANEDIOL/."
Thoughts on this? Anyone tried a fluid with PD instead of PG?
A couple things:
- This "new" base, 1,3-propanediol is in the same glycol family as PG. Technically PG is 1,2-propanediol – so calling this base just "propanediol" is sort of a misnomer.
- The blog post mentions that their PD is "EcoCert approved", which means it's DuPont's Zemea® brand.
- The production process involves bacterial fermentation by a special GMO strain of E. coli DuPont owns – neat!
GMO... E coli... What could go wrong? :P
Well I mean...PG is a by-product of crude oil processing. Something weird being in the manufacturing process isn't necessarily cause for concern.
I've been informed by many qualified folks that several nicotine extraction methods require fermentation, and diacetyl is produced during fermentation. Because of this, some nic bases can test positive for diacetyl depending on the extraction method used. I'm academically curious about the process used in Zemea production and how diacetyl is avoided.
Google: acetolactate tobacco for a ton of research on tobacco content of acetolactate, a precursor of diacetyl. Acetolactate typically ferments into valine, but residual acetolactate can become diacetyl.
As for 13P, it is fermented from glucose derived from zea mays -- and glucose can actually ferment into diacetyl.
Interesting idea. I'll have to send some 13P to my local GC/MS service and see what turns up.
DuPont OWNS a strain of E. Coli? Like a whole species of bacteria?
Money can LITERALLY buy everything.
E. Coli is used in GMO stuff as it's a really simple cell that's well understood.
You might like this video about Synthetic Biology. It describes a bit about what is happening (and is aimed at non-scientists).
/u/fizzmustard,
Hey guys I was interested in working with this base and I contacted the company that produces Zemea, this was the response,
Dear Valued Customer:
Subject: 1,3 propanediol not allowed into e-cigarettes or vapor applications
DuPont Tate & Lyle does not allow the sale of 1,3-propanediol into the e-cigarettes or vapor
application markets. For each new application where 1,3-propanediol may be used, DuPont Tate &
Lyle conducts a product stewardship review to evaluate safety and risk factors. Due to a lack of
studies on the long-term health effects of e-cigarettes and/or vapor applications, as well as the
uncertain regulatory status, sampling or commercial sale for these applications is not permitted.
Please contact us if you have any questions or require additional information. Thank you for your understanding*
So if Five Pawns are indeed using this base then there is something seriously fishy going on. Anyway take this as you would anything on the internet but this is the official response that I was provided.
I asked DuPont and got the same response as well. I wrote back and asked if FP has it, then what other venders should I consider asking to purchase from. They wrote back stating they knowingly do not sell for ecigs and that they'll be contacting FP directly about this. Even if this is through a vender that FP is using, I think DP will try to put a stop to it. I'm sure DP would have found out eventually but I may have been one of, if not the one to tell them. Yikes, sorry FP, I didn't know y'all may have been up to something shady, I was just trying to pick up a bottle for myself.
Yeah I figured they were doing something shady to acquire it. My knee jerk was thinking that they were doing a custom synth with some lab but based on the fact that it's under copyright I don't think the chemical structure can be legally synthed yet. Regardless I hope they don't attempt to use it and screw over DuPont, when DuPont feels it's safe I'm sure they will sell it to vapor producers.
I doubt it. If I recall, a major producer of PG was attempting to eliminate sales to the vaping industry for the same reasons. The flavoring trade industry in the US advises against selling to the vaping community, repeating the same lines. That's why many have to obtain flavors overseas although there are tens of thousands of flavoring companies in the US.
Everyone knows vaping is safer than smoking. That's good enough for other products.
Those bastards said they wouldnt ship me any. Curses dupont! Curses!!!!!!!
Anyone know if this is the same stuff they're using?
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271538706170
I just requested a free sample from DuPont, hopefully they approve and ship it to me. Otherwise I can't seem to find anywhere to buy it directly.
I understand about 1/10th of this thread or less. All I know is that I'm one of those with a probably allergy. I have similar dx's to medicines carring related forms of PG and I'm wondering if this is different enough.
VG as the sole carrier in eliquid leaves a lot to be desired so I'm hoping for more research into alternatives.
MCT base oil is a great alternative. The MMJ community uses it. I use it. Love it. Just alittle more complicated for flavors because PG and VG don't mix with it. I personally use it for my NET blends.
What is MCT base oil? Do you use it instead of PG or VG since they don't mix with it? I am very serious about looking for alternatives to PG and easier ways to mix VG more efficiently. DW turns out to be poor largely due to it vaporizing at much lower temps and leaving most of the flavors and VG behind = left over sludge.
MCT is medium chain triglycerides. It is glycerol with 3 fatty acids attached of 8 to 12 carbons. I use it instead of PG and VG. I havn't found a vendor that sells flavors with it, but i barely looked. I personally don't want to go the flavor route, but I was dabbling in mixing my own esters and making flavors.. I know it is used by companies as a flavor carrier. Read the Wikipedia on it.