Hi all,
6 months ago, I created a cereal vape called "TongueFuck" that seems to have become quite popular around here.
Shortly after, I started a company called Sacred Vapor Ltd. and began selling the original recipe under the name Tesseract.
The troubling thing is that I've seen the recipe reposted many times as a "Looper Clone" or "Cereal Killa Clone" and without fair attribution.
I do NOT have any problem with the recipe being mixed, shared, and expanded upon.
What I DO have a bit of an issue with, is that my original recipe with the original name is being shared as a clone of another juice, claimed by others as their own, and is seemingly being used for personal financial gain by some.
If you enjoy the recipe, please keep making it. If you'd like to support me, visit the website or tell a friend. If you'd like to modify the recipe and share it, by all means, but please attribute it fairly and do not use the original name.
This company is my livelihood, so I truly appreciate the understanding.
EDIT FOR CLARITY: /u/tet5uo has nothing to do with this, I am referring to third parties reposting the recipe.
TL;DR: Recipe is being passed off as a Looper clone, which isn't cool.
EDIT 2: Good god guys, I'm not trying to cause this kind of drama. All I'm asking is that people stop calling juice made with this recipe, or /u/tet5uo's revision, a Looper/CK clone.
> What I DO have a bit of an issue with, is that my original recipe with the original name is being shared as a clone, claimed by others as their own, and is seemingly being used for personal financial gain by some.
In all honesty, did you expect something different? Look at how many reddit vendors are selling the 'nana cream clone that /u/fizzmustard put out, claiming that they made some original flavor lol. Some shops will even take it a step further and put my name on it, claiming it's the real thing. Imagine the legal ramifications.
Dude that's just wrong. I hope you've at least sent them a cease and desist. Man what a crummy thing to do.
How do some of these people look at themselves in the mirror?
>In all honesty, did you expect something different?
At the time, I had no plans to start a company. I just wanted to share a recipe that I really liked, but it's a bit more significant now after the fact. I would be a lot less frustrated if I wasn't selling it but since this is how I make my living, it's an issue now. Totally my fault for posting the recipe in the first place, but hindsight is 20/20.
I know shady people will continue to do what they want, but I thought it might be a good idea to at least express my displeasure with what's going on.
I copied that recipe for personal use only and it is a tasty one. I have much respect for original recipe authors, as I have submitted quite a few of my own. I am appreciative of those of us who share recipes, but stealing recipes for financial gain is totally fucking wrong. In the bigger picture it effects the rest of us who would benefit and learn from the more experienced mixologists.
I believe some people have used the revised version located in your original thread. It was posted in the best recipes of 2014 thread. I don't know of anyone using your recipe as a financial gain, but it wouldn't surprise me if some b&m was mixing it up locally (although they mix many different recipes as well). Some people I'm guessing tried your recipe and thought it perhaps tasted similar to looper so they just called it a clone (maybe they didn't want to write TongueFuck on their labels?)
I think by posting this, you are potentially doing more harm to your juice profits. Since B&M's and other vendors can see that your juice is posted here and is also a top seller on your site, it would give them more incentive to try it and potentially resell/rebrand it
It's entirely my fault for posting the recipe in the first place, although I had no idea I'd be starting a company at the time and certainly didn't expect that recipe to gain the kind of attention that it has.
I guess the main thing that I'm frustrated about is that two different creams were added to the recipe, and from there on, the recipe was attributed to /u/tet5uo except in the 2014 Best Recipes thread.
When exactly did he claim it as his own? He's not profiting off it and he didn't even nominate the recipe, someone else did. Your name was even mentioned in the post!
Regardless, you're still the winner since you are actually making money off it and you inspired others.
I don't understand. I spend ridiculous amounts of time every day reading everything I can in this sub, and this is the first time that any sort of connection has been pointed out between your original recipe "TongueFuck", looper clones, and your top seller "Tesseract". I was under the impression that you posted a super tasty cereal recipe a while back, /u/tet5uo made some alterations to it while still attributing the original to you, and since then his altered version has been further altered into several other recipes. That's all I (and I imagine most people) knew.
After this PSA, all I've learned is that you also sell your original recipe under the name Tesseract. What was your actual concern that prompted you to make this PSA, or what did you intend to inform us about?
My main concern is that I do not consider it equitable to attach my original recipe to a clone of an existing (popular) juice in any way. This often leads to B&M's mixing it up and calling it their own.
If people don't understand why I'm concerned about the recipe being passed off by others as a Looper clone while I'm also selling it under my juice line, that's alright.
Right on, I truly meant no offense or anything and was genuinely asking. I can definitely understand if you're a bit miffed at your original recipe being attributed to someone else, I just can't quite see how this situation could affect your bottom line in any way. I'm not trying to argue that it's definitely NOT affecting your juice sales or anything, just that I don't see how it might be.
Either way, thanks for your original recipe, it's without a doubt popular and tasty, and it also succeeded in inspiring quite a few other great tasting recipes. Thanks for your work and I hope your juice line does well... you've obviously got a knack for making some tasty mixes!
Thanks man, I appreciate the kind words and no offense taken.
I don't see this affecting sales much. Even with the recipe out there most people don't go through the trouble of mixing their own juice, so I'm not particularly worried about that. It also gives people the opportunity to make it themselves if they'd rather do that than buy it, which I'm alright with.
The purpose of this PSA was more to make the situation clear, and separate my name and business from the Looper/Cereal Killa clones.
I'm not sure what the actual problem here is.
You don't sell a juice called tongue fuck. What's being passed around is not called a clone to what you are selling. And the recipe being passed around isn't even the original one you posted (that would be a clone even if not called such) but one that was revised/added to.
so really, I guess the guy that posted the modified version needs to come up with a name for his version and that will eliminate any confusion?
The problem is that the recipe was modified, kept the same name, reposted as a clone of Looper/Cereal Killa, and was attributed to another person.
It would be analogous to mixing an original banana/cream juice, having someone modify it, people start calling it a 'Nana Cream clone, and is then attributed to an entirely different person.
So you want the clones to be attributed to you? What if modifications are made, at what point does it not become a clone of the original recipe you shared? Do you legally own the rights to the name "TongueFuck"?
Serious questions. Not meant as sarcasm.
>So you want the clones to be attributed to you?
No, that's the whole point. I do not like that my recipe was later passed off as a Looper clone.
>What if modifications are made, at what point does it not become a clone of the original recipe you shared?
I think that depends on the recipe. I feel that it's fair to look towards other recipes for inspiration, but when you start using the same combo of flavors in the same percentages as another recipe, I think that's crossing the line.
> Do you legally own the rights to the name "TongueFuck"?
~~Yes, my understanding is that would be considered intellectual property.~~ Apparently I'm wrong about this.
You're saying you've registered/trademarked "TongueFuck" as protected IP, even though you don't sell a product with that name? I find that improbable, and as it stands I think your answers are rather misleading.
/u/tet5uo was kind enough to credit you for inspiring his mix by calling it a "Tonguefuck" revision, when IMO he should have renamed it and just mentioned it was inspired by /u/i_seen when he first shared it. That's more than fair attribution on his part. However, his recipe uses twice as many ingredients as yours does, and for the ingredients it does share, only one is used in the same percentage you used it at. That's not really a variation of your recipe anymore, it's a recipe inspired by your recipe.
Furthermore, when you google "Looper Clone", the recipe that turns up is NOT yours, it's /u/tet5uo's mix which is being misattributed and incorrectly branded. Yours is a very basic Fruit Circles/Berry Crunch mix that's been attempted literally thousands of times by independent mixers who've never heard of you/your company/Tonguefuck or even /r/DIY_ejuice. It's a natural first mixing attempt if you're mixing a cereal flavor with the most popular DIY flavoring company's concentrates.
I'm not trying to bag on you here but I feel like you're being a bit hyperbolic and overreaching in your claims. As I said in my other post, I wish you the best with your juice company and with your mixing in general, but let's keep in mind this subreddit is built around collaboration, mutual inspiration, and maintains a free-sharing, open-source mentality. Attribution for inspirations and crediting recipes when reposting them is the polite and respectful thing to do, but once you've put something out in public like you did, it's got a life of its own and you can't control it or claim ownership/control over everything tangentially related to your original posting. Just keep that in mind, please.
I'm honestly misunderstanding here because I thought you said you wanted credit where credit was due. But then it seems that you're not okay with the clones being attributed to you.
So you wouldn't be okay with a product named "TongueFuck clone"?
My point was that if someone posts the recipe to "TongueFuck", I'd just like to be properly credited is all.
This changes the moment that the same recipe is posted as a "Looper Clone". I do not want to be credited for a Looper Clone, because I did not ever intend for it to become considered a Looper clone.
Without getting into or commenting on the issues in the OP, whenever these type of issues come up I always think about the Gnu Public License (GPL) - https://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html and Creative Commons - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/.
Perhaps those that are concerned with attribution and distribution should adopt posting recipes under the GPL or CC licenses. Something like CC BY-NC-SA, etc. To my mind anyone posting a recipe on a public forum (Reddit, ECF, ELR, etc) is effectively publishing it under CC0 terms, or something similar to the GPL without the attribution clause.
Concerning the GPL, yeah recipes aren't source code but they're not really all that much different if you think about it.
There will always be people taking credit for work that isn't theirs. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and any mixer that share's their recipes that they have worked very hard on. I think the gravity of giving back to the DIY community outweighs those who make personal financial gain on someone's creative essence, but that's just my opinion. I applaud your work and am going to go place an order for your flavors as a thank you.
So...honest question here, but how do you know they are selling your clone? Do you buy them and copare the taste? I have never ever seen a juice company actually list its recipie, so am really wondering how you know its your clone?
This sort of situation has happened several times now, including to /u/_Bombies:
Person A releases a clone recipe. Said recipe becomes popular and certain individuals and b&m's decide to sell it and pass it off with the original name which is seriously uncool.
Considering that my recipe is the only thing to come up when you google "Looper Clone", there's a good chance that someone selling a Looper Clone is using it.
Okay, well, i guess I still dont get it. Yours was named tonguefuck. How is "cloned loopers" a clone of tonguefuck? How can you tell they didnt tweak the recipie in their editions? I mean, not for nothing, but there is onky so many variations of 4 ingredient recipies that theres gonna be natural dupes out there. I see it all the time here where someone posts a recipie and another pipes in with, i make that same thing, but I up the marshmellow type thing.
I currently make a clone of tetsuo's clone of I_seen's clone of looper; I call it "I Seen Tet5uo Tongue Fuck a Cereal Killers Looper". j/k. I have no issues with anyone using any recipes I post here; I come into this sub knowing that something I post may very well be edited or sold. It doesnt bother me. I got into the DIY game for myself and a few other people I know who were former pack a day smokers. I do it for fun and to help them out by making juice at cost for them. I have used other's recipes here and tweaked them as have many other people have. Just got to say "Thanks" to all the awesome people here who freely post recipes and ideas and for helping keep us all from going back to smoking.
Betty Lou posts a chicken and dumplings recipe to allrecipes.com. Joe Restaurateur sees the recipe and decides to add it to his restaurants menu as "Joe's Special Chicken and Dumplings". He alters the recipe adding some white pepper and increases the celery seed a bit.
Is Joe Restaurateur unethical in any way? Is he obligated in any way to credit Betty Lou? How would he do this?
BTW: bars do this all the time with specialty drinks from other bars, usually not even changing the name.
I think this is a more accurate scenario:
Betty Lou posts a chicken and dumplings recipe to allrecipes.com. Joe Restaurateur sees the recipe and decides to add it to his restaurant's menu as "Joe's special Chicken and Dumplings". He alters the recipe by adding some white pepper and increases the celery seed a bit.
Tina then comes across the recipe and decides to serve it at her restaurant too. However, Tina calls it "Chef Gordon Ramsay's Chicken and Dumplings".
Tina would be obviously be acting in an unethical way, similarly to how the people posting the recipe as as Looper/CK clone are acting.
Damn, I'm late to the party. Unfortunately, this is what happens when you post a recipe online. The only way to prevent it, is to keep your recipes to yourself. I am quite certain there are several eliquid companies who have basically started there business thanks to this sub. It's sad really, because a couple of them are quite popular on Reddit. I'd be inclined to assume a huge majority of the vendors using recipes from here, never even participate in the sub.
I personally don't care for the tongue fuck recipe, the fruit circles is WAY too prevalent, and all I get is creamy lemon pledge. Either way, getting upset because a recipe you posted is being sold is fortuitous. It happens to almost all of the talented mixers who choose to share their work.