The case in point here being Washington State, as I'm not entirely sure there are similar restrictions threatening to be passed anywhere else. If you aren't caught up, there's a bill on the horizon to being passed in the near future that would make buying and receiving anything vape-related in the mail punishable by a felony arrest and a hefty fine. Including flavorings and non-nicotine enriched PG and VG.
Which is about the worst-case scenario I could think of for this new leg of my most favorite hobby.
There's a bottom line that I don't have a shred of doubt in my mind that someone's going to get in trouble for ordering, and receiving, a box of flavorings and the such.
Personal feelings for the ban aside, there are legitimate uses for these flavorings besides vaping. A friend of mine is starting to do gummy-type candies in his kitchen, he uses Lorann flavorings. Same bottles I use. They're delicious. My sister-in-law is really into chocolates right now, and she's starting to experiment with mints and fruit flavorings to tweak her chocolate candies. Again, delicious, and the exact bottles of flavorings that I have a whole tacklebox full of.
I can find Lorann flavorings at my local Wal Mart.
Of course I understand the reasoning for the ban, to stop skirting of paying the high sin tax - so I guess therein lies the meat of the question I propose.
If we're looking at flavorings, would the place you buy them dictate their intended purpose? If that's the case, couldn't I buy them straight from Amazon itself? With restrictions to places vendors could mail to, wouldn't they be able to list all these different company's flavorings as baking, candy making flavorings and be legitimate in that aspect?
I'm afraid that for nic juice, us Washingtonian DIYers are going to have to suck it up and pay the piper a hefty penny for that.
But how can flavorings be pinned down to vaping?
Is anyone here versed enough in law to make a distinguishing point about all this?
Hopefully, you have a group with a lawyer on retainer already. I'm not a lawyer, but I had a period of semi-professional trouble making in my misspent (but uproariously fun,) youth. One principle of law I always found useful is that the law must be applied equally to everyone.
What I would do, with a group of others, in an organized way, beginning whenever this law comes into force:
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Systematically report every vendor that sells the flavorings themselves (WalMart, baker's supply shops, grandma's corner store, grocery chains, hobby shops;)
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Systematically report every vendor that uses them (bakeries, candy makers, hookah shops, oxygen bars, soap makers, perfumers, restaurants, head shops, tobacco shops;)
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Systematically report every vendor that sells substantially the same things as e-liquid i.e. flavoring in PG or VG (coffee flavoring syrups, so Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, mom&pop coffee shops, sex shops;)
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Systematically report every vendor that sells PG and VG (farmer's supply, drug stores, grocery stores, WalMart;)
Either they strictly and fairly enforce the law, closing down hundreds of additional small businesses and disrupting agriculture during calf season, which will produce a huge backlash and changes ("Why was this elderly candy maker arrested this morning? News at 11!) or they'll blatantly apply the law unequally, which will be very helpful in legal proceedings by eliquid makers. Either way, you'll have tabulated a fantastic master list of DIY supplies for the underground.
That's a fantastic run down. I can't speak for the whole of Washington's vape community, but there aren't any that I personally know of who are banding together to legally fight aspects of this bill. You're right, there's a massive amount of business modeled around and vitally using these components.
I have a theory that as long as nothing's coming from NicVape Vapor Juices Inc, that it won't even be noticed let alone checked and investigated.
I'm going to do a little digging around and hopefully come back with something substantial that Washington vape enthusiasts can get behind and rally around that's angled more or less in the 'legal' part of the fight.
For what it's worth, I'll gladly toast to the Breaking Story of Granny Edsel being hauled off for ordering Peppermint and Vanilla flavorings. That would, indeed, be a huge boost in the movement against it.
Unfortunately, vaping is already more or less being looked at through tinted lenses by the public en masse. We've done it to ourselves, with as popular, cheap a hobby it is, and socially aggressive most enthusiasts are.
To Joe Blow on the street, "whatever, it's just like smoking. (Also, this one time someone was making a big scene about it and it was annoying, so that's what I base my whole stance on the issue around.)"
Which means, honestly, I have low expectations for getting a "general public" sway.
I suppose we'll see how it settles.
It think you'd be amazed at what drug charges for Granny Edsel and Farmer Jones will do for public perception ;) Also, that's a seriously half-assed list I put together, y'all can easily add a dozen things to it.
This link suggests the flavoring market in the US alone is around $10 billion.
I'm currently in seattle and would partake in banding together to legally fight this bill. Having an experience or two with the law in my youth, I have experience on the receiving end of the law. If your intereste, please feel free to pm me. We can do some research on the companies and what not.
You are a man after my own trouble making heart.
This is my favourite approach, you use the dumb laws that are created to backfire against them, and if they ever come after you, you have the ability to claim discrimination, possibly harassment, depending how your interactions go, and turn that shit on their own heads. It's fun to see these sort of things backfire and also brings public attention as everyone now adays has been screwed by the government either in taxes, denied claims, harraent, miss management etc.
So all you need is that public spot lite on the laws and then the politicians will get all panicy since they know when a paper reports a "government screwed this family" article, everyone sides with the little guy, cuz you know, fuck the government lol
There is really no way to know what one will do with the flavors they order without invading privacy.
As far as nicotine sales go, that's the one I'm worried most about. I think a tax on nicotine although not what I want, seems like a logical compromise if they want to address it from a tax standpoint.
If that's the case though the real issue is we need a tax reform so the government isn't so reliant on big tobacco sales.
Edit: after re reading what you said is being proposed, do they plan on making ecigs illegal or something? Anything vape related would include mods. Sick of our shitty government avoiding reforms that are desperately needed in favor of just letting people stay on analogs because it's the easier alternative, and most importantly, more lucrative for the shady politicians. I don't see a sin taxon cigarette lighters or ash trays. Why tax the mod itself?
I absolutely agree on the need for tax reform. Absolutely.
I'm willing the pay the tax on the one ingredient that could be deemed "sin" worthy, I suppose, if I have to I will and I won't even make a big enough stink about it to warrant anything other than a few downvotes for being whiny.
However with things that have legitimate dual or multiple purposes, it's almost an (like you said) invasion of privacy to dictate how I use what I buy.
"After World War II, over 2,500 tons of nicotine insecticide were used worldwide"
If passed, before a tax reform is accomplished I will be launching a new line of Premium insecticides available in a variety of flavors and strengths.
I'm in WA as well. I'm not worried about flavorings or base liquids, I'm worried about nic. Which is why I'm stocking up before October when this bill, if it passes, goes into effect.
>October
A million thank-you's. I hadn't been able to find even the flimsiest of time frames yet, and now I have one. Would you be so kind as to point me to where this is outlined? I know at least a half dozen people that would really, really like to see it.
Stocking up is the name of the game. Getting in as much as I can before the doors close.
I would say it's going to be impossible to ban sale of flavorings, pg or vg since they all have alternative uses. Nicotine will be taxed for sure. There is no way to get around that.
I, personally, plan to just stock up at some point down the road, assuming my state starts any of these witchhunts.
I predict a highly organized nicotine running syndicate that does a group purchase to be shipped to neighboring unregulated states and then cut up to be dispersed to be run into the regulated ones. Then come the "vapeasys", where you have to know a special knock & blow a certain vape trick to enter. Then.. Nicotine sniffing dogs, Tommy guns, and fedoras.. Shootout at the MBV Corral.
You'll be fine.. Back when original silkroad was open.. and still happening through different websites.. You could get literally anything... anything.. shipped to your house.
So i'm sure if thousands of people were doing that.. the VG/flavorings being shipped won't result in a swat raid on your house haha.
I'm already getting feelers from Chinese nic vendors who are willing to ship nic in multiple small bottles labeled however I like, and I'm just active online, lol, I don't even own a shop.
I'm facing a similar scare in Indiana right now. HB 1432 may be able to be interpreted as making it that your own liquid you make for personal use may be illegal and would have you face a felony infraction (hefty fines). One section defines manufacturing eliquid without a license to be susceptible to those fines but I am unsure if this will only apply to be people intending to sell their liquids or not.
It honestly makes me want to move up my plans to get out of this shit hole of a state, but I have school to finish. I've been doing DIY for about a year now and it's saved me a bucketload of money. Last thing I need is a hefty fine for making my own liquid because I refuse to pay an astronomical price on liquids when I can make my own of a very similar quality.
If you do move call your representatives and let them know they lost a tax payer over their stupidity.
Absolutely. I've been entirely active in my opposition to these bills, from phone calls to emails to protesting/showing up in support of those who have a better voice for public speaking than I.
This idiotic decision is going to force many vapers to either leave Indiana or risk ridiculous fines. I don't want to see great companies go out of business (just recently got a brick and mortar store that is amazing).
I'm also in Indiana. My plan for getting around the whole "illegal DIY ejuice" issue is to simply buy ONE 30ml glass bottle from an approved, licensed vendor, then fill it over and over and over again with my own mixes.
I mean, are they going to confiscate every bottle of e-liquid they come across and send it to a lab for analysis? For that matter, are the police even going to have a master list of all approved vendors to check your liquids against?
I'm pretty sure that if I'm not openly selling my juice to the public, I'm not going to get any shit for mixing my own.
"Requires a manufacturer of e-liquid to obtain a permit from the alcohol and tobacco commission before bottling e-liquid or selling e-liquid to retailers or distributors."
from https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2015/bills/house/1432#digest-heading
That part about bottling e-liquid would technically apply to DIY, although how they would enforce it idk.
Sooo... The question is, who exactly will be enforcing this? The Alcohol and Tobacco Commission, or the police? And again, will they simply be checking against an approved brands list, or what? If that's all they're doing, then by purchasing a single bottle of juice that meets all standards and was purchased legally in Indiana, then filling said bottle with my own liquids, I'm under the radar.
Also in Indiana, and I have been poring over the bill. The only thing that gives me hope about this bill re: DIY is the scope defined in the bill:
> Sec. 1. This article applies to the following: (1) The commercial manufacturing, bottling, selling, bartering, or importing of e-liquid in Indiana
I really hope that's how it's interpreted =\
Hopefully this is how it goes down and I can stop worrying. However, given Indiana's overall stupidity lately, I am not holding my breath until it is clearly defined. I just cannot go back to purchasing liquid. I simply go through too much daily to justify the price.
I've been vaping for nearly 3 years now. I vape my Sig 150 at max with a dark horse RDA. 6mg juice and go through 10-20ml a day on average. Going back to vendor juice as a student is simply not an option for me.
First off, I am not a lawyer. I just skimmed through the bill and I don't see anything that would prohibit you from buying flavor concentrates, as long as you are acting as a manufacturer, distributor, or retailer. It does state that you can NOT buy concentrated nicotine unless you are a licensed business and have a waiver.
"Sec. 121. RCW 70.155.140 and 2009 c 278 s 2 are each amended to read as follows:
(1) A person may not:
(a) Ship or transport, or cause to be shipped or transported, any tobacco product or vapor product ordered or purchased by mail or through the internet to anyone in this state other than a licensed wholesaler, distributor, or retailer; or
(b) With knowledge or reason to know of the violation, provide substantial assistance to a person who is in violation of this section.
(2) This section does not prohibit shipping, selling, or transporting, or causing to be sold, shipped, or transported, concentrated nicotine ordered or purchased by mail or through the internet to a person who:
(a) Is engaged in business in this state;
(b) Has a documented commercial or industrial need for concentrated nicotine that is not related to the sale, distribution, or manufacture of vapor products; and
(c) Receives a waiver from the board."
It also states that you can not be taxed on items that were purchased before the effective date of the bill (10/01/15), so stock up on gear and supplies, but save your receipts for proof.
Besides the total asinine nature of the whole "protect the health of the people", the most damning thing that I saw was that NO FLAVORED LIQUIDS CAN BE SOLD!!! So anything other than straight tobacco or menthol will be banned. Anything that has a "characterizing flavor" is covered under this section.
I live in MI so I'm keeping a close eye on things here, but seeing this, I feel for you guys. This is terrible and tantamount to discrimination and/or extortion. Hopefully it will get caught up in legislative purgatory or a libertarian republican will pick it up as a fighting cause.
Just to point out how little they understand e-juice: "no flavored liquids can be sold," though tobacco and menthol are both added to juice in flavoring, neither are natural extractions. If this does pass, maybe we can strike a blow to the mark10s and the vuse and such for using "flavors."
This does nothing the address the OPs post; but, as someone from the center of the state, I have to say it. To all the West of the Mountains vapers out there, please pay attention to who is pushing this bill through and vote accordingly when it is time. Stop voting these these guys into office just because they are Democrats and that's how everyone else is voting around you. I also say the same about Republicans but I don't know of any supporting this bill. All of my representatives are opposing this.
They try pulling this shit in Florida, I'm driving my ass to Tallahassee with a few bottles, a few mechs, and about 15 batteries and chuck sick tits all over the intersection at the capitol. I suggest vapers in Washington do the same.
