I've been working on cloning this juice for like 8 months and since the juice is now more available, I've decided to share what I've done. I want to do this and see anyone can improve upon what I've done. If anyone does perfect the recipe, please keep me posted.
To give you an idea of how obsessed I am with cloning this juice, I'll tell you about my shurb habit lol. I've probably vaped several litres of this stuff. I got lucky on sales and I was able to buy some from random people in the group. I buy five or six bottles when it's on giant vapes. I had my sister two hours south of here go to the vape shop in her area to get it for me when they started selling it. Other juice hasn't quite tasted the same since I've tried shurb so that's what I want to vape.
I've tried all of TFA's flavors that would potentially be in there as of the time that shurb was ever talked about. After that, I went through a lot of Flavour Art's potential flavors. I've managed to get pretty close to it, but there's still something not quite there. I've had so many 'Eureka moments' where I thought I found a flavor that matched; it's been really difficult trying to figure it out.
There are a few things I've found that I can't seem to decide about. The first and most annoying issue is the citrus flavor. Everyone seems to be absolutely certain there is lime in this juice. I disagree because I've tried a fairly good cross section of limes and none of them worked. Even at 0.5%, it just instantly overpowered the taste. I really like Flavour Art lemon, so I am a little biased here, but lemon seems OK in this recipe. I feel like the FA lemon is too 'sharp' or 'pungent'. The last few times I tried, I was starting to try TFA hibiscus. I think hibiscus would add something to the citrus/floral notes.
The next thing I can't decide on is whether or not there is TFA strawberry in the juice. In the analysis towards the bottom, it clearly shows virtually all of the compounds in TFA strawberry. It adds something that I don't taste in the real stuff.
One thing is certain, there is a lot of EM in this juice. After a while, I started to notice it more. Even in the analysis it shows a high amount of EM. I'm not sure what magic number is, but it's high.
There is a relatively high count of flavors in it; the recipe here has seven. There could easily be some I'm missing too. This recipe has come from hundreds of iterations of trial and error.
- 4% Raspberry (Flavour Art)
- 4% Mandarin (Flavour Art)
- 1% Vanilla Swirl (TFA)
- 7% EM
- 2% Lemon (Flavour Art)
- 2% Whipped Cream (TFA)
- 1% Marshmallow (Flavour Art)
Edit: 60/40 VG/PG; sorry I forgot about this! This is just the ratio I've been using and it seems right. If anyone has something that works better I'd be open to trying it.
I also went full on crazy and sent a sample for GCMS analysis. This showed some things but wasn't as helpful as I hoped. I knew that it might not help, but I decided to do it anyways just in case. The strategy here was to use the analysis as guideline in terms of taste molecules. TFA has most of the compositions of their flavors listed with approximate concentrations.
http://imgur.com/a/MtIWS
Edit:
I forgot to mention another detail that may narrow down the possible list of ingredients. I read a post from JTJM that said there is one flavor in the recipe that has a lot of variation when he gets it and sometimes a batch is cloudy and sometimes its clear. The batches of FA mandarin I have seemed to vary a little bit in cloudiness so that is why I chose it. It's common with citrus flavors.
I was obsessed with cloning this juice for a few months and I just gave up. You took it to whole different level by getting a GCMS analysis! I though for a long time Hibiscus or Liquid Amber could possibly be the missing note. It's a weird juice for sure. Did you try Flavourart Citrus Mix? I went for a while thinking it was the Lemon/Lime flavoring. I even bought a bottle of Silver Cloud Estates Blood orange because someone in another forum thought it was in it. I will give your recipe a try next time I mix up.
Citrus mix doesn't seem to work; it adds like a really bitter note for some reason. Liquid amber was one I tried a few times but it just stuck out. Oba Oba was one I was messing with for a while but I eventually realized it wasn't in it either. I really like Oba Oba though. I was also trying hypnotic mist for a while, but it didn't work either. I'm starting to think hibiscus, but i've been too busy to work on it lately.
A lot of people say 'there's something I just can't place; it's familiar but I don't know what it is.' and I've certainly experienced that while I was trying to figure it out. I even have some with 0 nic to see the difference. I've tried tasting them with my tongue but still the same 'WTF IS THIS DAMN THING I KNOW THE TASTE OF'. A ridiculous amount of time and effort went into this 'white whale' lol. A year ago, I cloned JTJM Creme Brulee in like five days. I moved on to shurb hoping it would be as easy and here we all are lol.
I really love Oba Oba as well. It is a just a great additive. Check out the clone of betty I did (Sort of clone). It uses Oba Oba in it and I have been infatuated with tweaking it alot.
Would you mind posting the Creme brulee clone? I would love to try that some time.
Have you tried Citrus Punch (TFA)? It has a familiar taste, but if I were asked to identify it in a mix, I'd have a hard time.
I've never tried Shurb. But..
At 10%, and after a steep, Cap Italian Lemon Sicily gives that Liquid amber fermented/Cider/Vinegar tone. Much more subdued then Liquid Amber, but similar.
FW lemonade (and if I remember right, FW Mt Dew) mixed with percentages of CAP Italian Lemon Sicily, creates a flavor more like to a lime, or some sort of skunky melon lime rind lemon hybrid. Depending on ratio, can presents notes resembling MJ (4 FW to 1 CAP).
The higher the FW ratio, the more forward the lime tone becomes. harsher, more skunky melonish, less sweet.
The higher the CAP ratio, the more forward the lemon becomes. smoother, softer, sweeter, saltier.
Makes for some interesting combinations.
Idk if anyone pointed this out as its prob a mistake but I think the standard is still PG/VG, no? I know people are all up on VG's dick and all, but I think we should still keep it PG/VG.
Nice work, I too.....have been tinkering with Shurb on and off. I've been in the FB group for quite some time, and have had my share of Shurb. I obsessed over it when it was exceedingly difficult to get, and it was ultimately my mission to deconstruct it.
It's definitely difficult, and you and I are right about at the same point. My white gummy bear recipe is actually one of my first initial shurb attempts, guess that was a freebie. The citrus aspect is what gets me too. Admittedly, I've not worked on it much recently* until you posted this. Now my wheels are turning again!
I mixed yours up, and omitted the FA Marshmallow for Oba Oba. The nose is close, but it's just missing that ridiculous pop that the real thing has. Giant Vapes description specifically states lime as one of the primary flavors. I own about 9 limes/key limes and the only two that I lean towards are INW Lime(Limetka) and FA Citrus Mix. The INW Lime is just so bright and vibrant, not as tart as TFA and FW. Citrus Mix is just fuckin weird, and I've not experimented with it a whole hell of a lot. A friend of mine said he felt that was the citrus element in it.
I've not tried any SCE flavors, they have a lime or two. People keep mentioning their Blood Orange. I have FW's Orange and Blood Orange, and both are wonderful. I haven't tried using either, and may just have to do so.
One flavor I feel may be there, is FW Starfruit. People mention "Gummy" and I think the starfruit is where they're getting that from. I detest anything with gummy in it, just like FA Pineapple. I also feel FA Custard/Vienna Cream could be strong components as well.
I could ramble on forever about everything I've thought/tried/heard about Shurb. Hopefully we can work together and get this shit down. Kudos on the GC/MS. That's hardcore man, but I totally fuckin get it. This stuff was like crack a few months back. Getting towards the end of the bottle was quite depressing. Admittedly, the real deal is a bit overly sweet for my taste now, as DIY as changed my palette dramatically. Still, I hope to complete my original goal of nailing this flavor. It's what got me into DIY in the first place.
Sorry for the long post, fuck you Shurb(but I really love you)
Does your house look like an obsessed detective's house, where red threads are linking thousands of potential leads together?
Jaykay. I'll probably get the flavors to try this. I've never tried Shurb, but it's mentioned everywhere.
HA! It really did look like a crack den for a while there; I just left out the flavors I was trying at the time.
Hahaha talk about an obsession! I've been there before man. Getting the GCMS is hilarious to me but also genius. How did you get it anyway? Did you send it out to get analyzed, or did they have it available?
I actually got the analysis done by TFA. The woman Linda over there is really helpful.
I seriously never give up on anything. I was happy to find someone to do the analysis for me if I could get some insight on the recipe. Also, there is a website that helps with describing individual taste molecules. Just Google the good scents IIRC. I also found out that chemistry is ridiculous complicated. I'm an engineer and I was like whaaaaaaaaat lol.
I've been tinkering with shurb here and there as well. After reading damn near every forum that mentioned it since it was originally sold on facebook, I saw a few things mentioned that I now taste much more strongly. Hibiscus is what I keep wondering about, but a quick glance at the MSDS and GCMS would suggest otherwise.
I have sworn off mixing until I taste every flavor I own by itself and write something (anything) down about each one, but for this I'm going to make an exception. I'll mix up your recipe and let you know.
High five for absurd shurb habits!
So. I've never had Shurb, but I've been messing around with my own take on it, inspired by you and a couple other people in this thread. It uses a lot of flavors, but....want the recipe to give it a shot?
Hey /u/vaperous, any new developments on this? This post ended up getting me to finally try Shurb and now I can't stop buying it.
I tried TFA Gummy in it as someone else mentioned but it definitely doesn't bring it any closer. Did you ever get to try hibiscus or anything else?
I've been overwhelmed at work recently and haven't had the time/energy to really put time into it. TFA Gummy seemed promising at first when I was starting this process, but there is something in it that doesn't fit. If I had to describe what I think the recipe is missing it would be a 'blurred' citrus-esque flavor. By 'blurred' I mean I don't taste any rough edges and it blends into the rest of the juice pretty well. The flavor doesn't have to be a 'classical' citrus like lime. It could very well be a flavor reminiscent of citrus.
I think the high acetic acid contributes to the blending of the flavors, so it would certainly be worth picking up some ACV and/or WV.
I think I'll give ACV a try sometime this week. Saw the talk about it in the Deeper DIY post and it seems pretty plausible. I'll let you know if I notice anything interesting. Thanks again for the work you put in on this!
Wow. So I just tried ~1% ACV in your original recipe. I feel like its pretty close. Seems to add a slight bit of tartness or something. I can't place my finger on it but it definitely feels closer.
And it could also explain why their Max VG mix is still really thin compared to most max VG juices. ACV thins this out quite a bit.
EDIT - Should clarify. I don't think this is THE missing piece. But I definitely think this is part of what is missing. Probably in a small amount. I feel like this recipe still has too much of a "gummy candy" note compared to Shurb but I can't figure out which flavor is causing it.
Okay, more notes.
ACV doesn't quite seem right. I'm gonna forget about it and try white distilled soon.
I don't know why but the current recipe you have keeps getting this "gummy bear" flavor that I don't detect in Shurb. I'm thinking it could be the FA Raspberry? But every thread I've ever found talking about Shurb recipes has said it's totally FA Raspberry.
I skimmed around the net and found a post by Botboy saying that he knows it uses multiple flavor manufacturers. To me, that sounds like "more than two". So I think maybe some of the citrus isn't FA.
I swear Lime Tahity from FA smells similar to the lime smell from Shurb but it's too strong. Maybe the white distilled vinegar would help soften that?
INW Lemon Mix is interesting. So is FA Citrus Mix. But I get some weird sharp/grassy note in them that I don't get in Shurb at all. I'm definitely going to mess with the INW mix more though.
I don't think strawberry is in there. I think your current idea of raspberry+citrus is pretty much it for the fruits. Just IMO though. I'm definitely no super taster.
Hope it's cool to post these here, figured you'd wanna here if anyone else tried any tweaks. You've got me obsessed with this now and it's driving me nuts. Botboy has said in a few posts that he's surprised people like it so much because you can get the same thing by tossing a bunch of fruits together and dumping loads of EM in. It seems so simple but I just can't figure it out either.
This is awesome! I'm happy you're making progress. Botboy and I were talking about a lot of shurb related stuff in PMs a few months ago, so it's possible that information came from those conversations. If he's heard something new about it, then you may be right about it being more than two. As far as I've tested, I've only used two manufacturers in the actual recipe. I've tried Capella's but I couldn't get them to work. I've heard INW has good fruit flavors but I've not had time to do anything with it.
I have tried Citrus Mix and got the exact same weird note you were describing. Even at 0.5% I had the weird note.
I think FA raspberry is there but I could be wrong. It's not immediately obvious (to me at least) that raspberry is in that juice. Since he uses that flavor for Raspberry French and that flavor seems pretty similar to shurb in some ways, I assume there is some amount in there. It's tough to confirm because the compounds in FA Raspberry aren't posted anywhere. If anyone had access to a lab and wanted to have it analyzed, it would certainly clear up that question.
I've been on the fence with TFA strawberry for a while. If you look at the compounds in TFA strawberry and compare them to the shurb analysis, there is a very strong overlap IIRC. There is just something to 'sharp' about that flavor IMO.
I also agree with you about Lime Tahiti. Do you think he would 'make' a flavor using Lime Tahiti like the Milkstone flavor uses flavors or something?
Wow, that really took cloning to the next level even if you haven't nailed it yet. Nice work!
Have you tried FA Bergamot yet? That produces a very sharp citrus note.
I also see that the description on Giant Vapes does mention lime.
Thank you! I tried to use all the qualitative information I could find on shurb; so any descriptions from people or vendors that may help me look at it from a different angle. I keep seeing lime but I just can't make it work. That's not to say that it isn't in the recipe, but I haven't made it work and have become skeptical about it.
Which lime(s) have you tried? I'm guessing if you have tried lime, FA's Cold Pressed has been one?
You are a goddamn hero. I've sent you a PM. When I have some time, I'll try to help you with the recipe too, but this post made me think of something else.
I put this in Deeper as well.
I'm going to temporarily remove your link/post from there, just because I invited him to start the conversation himself there so we can help him decode the GC/MS into flavors and discuss the prospects, since it is his work. If he declines, I'll restore your post. Please don't take it as me discouraging you from posting there, it's not about that at all -- I just hope he'll take the opportunity to join us. However, one way or another, we will cover the topic like you're hoping for. I hope that doesn't offend you at all.
Have you emailed someone like Linda at perfumers apprentice to see if they could possibly identify what flavors the juice is made up of?
Linda was really great throughout the entire process. She tried to give me a refund at first because she didn't want me to be expect an exact recipe out of it. I really appreciated that because she could have just taken my money without question. I spoke with her several times after I got the output and asked her some questions. She's really dedicated to making sure people get what they want. She even sent me some samples of flavor candidates that weren't officially for sale. I have nothing but good things to say about Linda.
While I'm in 'shout out' mode, another place that helped me was Wizard Labs. I live in the same area as their office and I know a handful of people there. They always tried to help me figure it out. Even the owner John would give me some insight when he was available. I would walk in there to pick something up and I would end up sitting and talking with a few guys for a while.
Edit:
Also, HeadInClouds over at VU is a really awesome resource. I asked him since he seemed like an expert on FA flavors and he didn't disappoint with his vast knowledge of DIY. /u/BotBoy141 is another person who I bounced ideas off of. The community really came through on this effort IMHO.
Very cool. I wonder if the acetic acid is a component of a standard flavor, or drops of apple cider vinegar? It seems fairly high for a flavor component to my utterly untrained eye.
That's something that I noticed myself. If you look through the TFA site with all the ingredients, only a handful of them have that compound in it. It threw me off for the longest time; it doesn't seem to fit.
Edit:
If I had to guess, it's in one of the flavors that don't have their composition available online. Flavour Art seems to have a program that is focused on chemical analysis, but I haven't seen any of the flavors in question on there. FA raspberry is really the core of the recipe and since the composition isn't available, it becomes an interesting problem. That being said, I considered sending it off for GC/MS, but haven't had the cash to do so lately. I think that flavor's chemical composition may shed quite a bit of light into that GC/MC analysis.
Well, looking at that number, I think Apple Cider Vinegar (or maybe white distilled,) is one of your missing ingredients. I don't see it used much in new recipes, but it was a pretty common ejuice additive a few years ago before people started using malic acid widely. Whatcha think, /u/returnity ?
Based on the relatively high percentage, I'd be inclined to agree with you that it's probably not a component of the raspberry flavoring itself, but rather an added component to acidify the juice. Changing the pH of a mix will substantially effect the expression of flavor profiles, and your average ejuice with PG in it is substantially higher pH (more basic) than neutral (7), so adding something like ACV (distilled white would be better in this mix, I think) could give it both that final tweak you're looking for /u/vaperous, as well as the sort of 'alcohol bite' that I've seen some people say that they taste in Shurb. Just a thought, but I think it's a line of inquiry worth pursuing for sure.
IMHO the citrus your tasting is an orange, perhaps blood orange.
I agree with you. I think it might be Silver cloud estates blood orange myself. It just has an alcohol bite to it that never goes away even with leaving the cap off. But it fits in the profile. A reason for not being SCE is that they are strictly a "No Vape" flavoring company and will refuse to sell to any vaping vendor if they find out that it's being used for ejuice. You can still buy small (4oz) bottles off amazon but large quantities are probably a no go since they are adamant about who gets their flavor in that quantity.
This is going to sound crazy, and some people will not like it but seeing how obsessed you are I thought I might mention. Have you ever thought of smoking some Marijuana then vaping Sherb in 0 nic.
The thing is, Marijuana SIGNIFICANTLY increases your sense of taste and smell. Upwards to 5 x10 times normal. I haven't smoked in 20 years but the first time I did I was chewing a piece of Grape bubble yum and without exaggeration I literally laughed and cried because the taste was so amazing it was nearly orgasmic. I could taste every subtle flavor it was incredible.
Not sure if thats a step you would be willing to take to find that missing flavor but it may just work.
I actually feel the same way with Lenola cream. There is something in there that I am tasting and it makes me insane that I can't place it.
I haven't considered that. That is not such a bad idea. I'm not personally into it, but I know some people who are. At the very least that could get them talking about what they taste.
edit: I love your user name lol
Is FA Lemon actually FA Lemon Sicily? I can't seem to find a plain lemon for FA.
I noticed in the GCMS analysis the percentage of EM is 1.63%. I'm genuinely curious about how you came to add 7% to your final mix. Shouldn't the final percentage in your recipe be 1.63% as well? This isn't a criticism. I promise, I'm genuinely interested in your methodology. I think a GCMS analysis is a phenomenal idea. Five Pawn's Lucena has been a goal of mine since I started DIY and I'm starting to seriously consider the idea of sending it off to a lab.
Standard EM solution in PG is 10%, so therefore adding 7% EM 10% would net him 0.7% EM (pure), in addition to the expected amounts of EM already found in some of the flavoring profiles.
Another thing to add, rather than edit. Below, someone mentioned Harvest Berry. This may be worth experimenting with. A while back, I sent some to Jackster so he could take a crack at replicating it with me. While rinsing the syringe I used to fill his bottles, I could have sworn I smelled harvest berry in the steam coming from the sink. I had forgotten about this until just now.
I don't detect it outright in the final product, but such is the way of skillful mixing. Also, the possibility of ACV/WV could alter the perception significantly.
I understand what you're doing and why you're doing it, and I wish you luck. But I have to say, if I were the business owner who sold that juice, I'd be kind of miffed that the chemical analysis of my juice was posted in a public forum where anyone could recreate it and sell it as their own. Just my two cents.
This is the reason why I haven't posted it yet; basically out of respect. However, just because I didn't want to post it for the aforementioned reason, doesn't mean I think it's unethical to do so. I live in the United States, so I can only give my opinion about this in that context.
When someone sells anything, they run the risk of having their product analyzed or duplicated. Not only that, since his juice was such a pain in the ass to get at one point, I'm surprised there hasn't been something done and posted about it yet. It's like painting a target on your back. As a vendor, he had the option to increase production to meet demand. He's only done that recently, and since it's been easier to get, the desire to clone it isn't nearly as pressing.
The amount of work involved in the process of converting a GC/MS result into a final juice is literally no less (maybe even more, in many ways) than simply feeling your way to a clone the old fashioned way. GC/MS machines don't spit out lists of flavors to order from TFA, you know. What /u/vaperous has done here is no different than posting any other clone recipe, he just shared some interesting theoretical information which not even the vast majority of juice manufacturers themselves (much less DIYers) could make commercial use of. He's done nothing wrong, technically, legally, or practically. JTJM has a lot less to be concerned about with this post than /u/_Bombies, for example, yet look how graceful and even supportive he's been in regards to the confusion generated by the explosively popular Nana Cream homage in this past year. Bad vendors will get pissy over nothing, and good vendors will handle nearly anything with aplomb and maturity.
Been working on a shurb clone as well. Took all your effort into consideration and other comments from here and elsewhere. I'm convinced I have the correct ingredients. It's really close. Maybe a bit more tweaking on the raspberry and malic acid. Definitely the closest I've came.
FA raspberry 7%
FA lemon 7%
FA meringue 4%
FA orange 1%
FA bergamot 2%
EM 5%
Malic acid 4%
At zero nic/max vg comes in at exactly 30/70 pg/vg.