So, I've been finding myself frustrated lately with one of the ongoing issues in this subreddit. The "Read the Sidebar" rage. Don't get me wrong, I 100% believe it's your responsibility when you come to this community to read the sidebar and learn the basics before enquiring. However, as the number of DIYers grows with the looming FDA regulations, we're going to have more and more new members and this problem will only grow. We can't just keep reacting the same way as before. We need a better way to approach this.
I'm posting this because some accusations were leveled against one of our bigger contributors, and it seems some have a problem with how this sub operates currently. So I felt like this would be a good opportunity to clear the air. I want to hear from you guys. Are you afraid to post legitimate questions or start serious discussions because you're worried about Sidebar Bullies? Do you not participate here, or think discussions that could be valuable are being stifled? If so, could you offer some constructive solutions (other than running off a couple of the subs major contributors, as has been suggested by one helpful commenter who spawned this discussion)? I'd really like to hear your thoughts on both how we can further encourage individuals to Read the Sidebar! and how we can deal with the inevitable growth of threads from posters who didn't, in ways other than just the frustrated and tired refrain of "Read the Sidebar!". Your assistance and opinions are (as always) greatly appreciated and highly valued.
Edit: Conclusions so far:
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Don't be a dick! This goes for everyone equally.
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We need a Sidebar Bot to handle those questions, with a simple keyword trigger for new posts. This will become increasingly crucial in the future as participation and new users increase.
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Create an all-in-one Sticky Post w/ the links to the Sidebar Info, Monthly/Weekly threads, Recipes/Flavor Manufacturers, and other info.
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If it's a sidebar or search post, your reply should include: a suggested search link/term, a polite reminder about the sidebar content, and something useful or helpful for the user to glean from your post besides just that they fucked up by posting. It takes an extra 20 seconds to do this guys; if you don't want to, just don't post in that thread -- downvote it and move on.
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These suggestions by /u/Vaganusaurus (too long to paraphrase effectively, but very well-reasoned and helpful).
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Consider forking the sub: Start a DIY_ejuice101 type sub for all the new folks, so we can refer them there and let them ask their questions in an environment that doesn't deteriorate the experience for the more experienced members, or at the far end, a DIY_ejuiceADV for advanced topics. I think this is a last resort-type approach, honestly. I don't want to see this happen, I'm already a member of private DIY subs and forums, and this has a populist energy I'd like to keep alive.
I never post here. To me this sub seems more like an info dump than a community, and to make it even less inviting there are several "swinging egos" that seem to spend a lot of time here being generally abrasive should anyone ask a question. IMHO the point of a forum style site is discussion but this place reads like a wiki wherein you can end up having some nasty interactions should you ask the wrong question.
To add a constructive point, there is no reason whatsoever that people couldn't respectfully engage with someone while letting them know the info they seek can be found in the sidebar. It's also worth considering that the beginner questions can be helpful to veteran members as well. I believe the saying goes "Watch one, make one, teach one." There is a lot of insight to be gained in any field from teaching beginners your craft.
Then there's the fact that what we're dealing with is overall a subjective field. Yes, there is science involved but I think that so much of what is done in the DIY world revolves around preference that encouraging discussion about personal opinions and preference can add a lot of value.
Currently the moderators allow users to be extremely rude to other users. They should probably put the foot down a bit if they don't want just the same hand full of posters interacting.
This is a great comment. Your first one was a bit disappointing to me, so I'm glad you came back to add to it. I agree with everything you've said here.
When I respond to new users, I'm always polite and friendly, even when I'm telling them to read the sidebar. I think it's crucial we focus on that. If we're just nice to people when we tell them to read the sidebar, that's a huge improvement in the tone and attitude of this sub without really altering the message at all even. I don't know why human decency drops off the list of basic requirements when people go online.
Consider that I post under my real name. I dox myself daily with my addresses and phone numbers.
When I post and people read, I have to maintain my attitude that my time has value and that I am investing in those I respond to.
If I didn't demand that people use the search and sidebar features, others would start assuming it is OK to avoid it.
When dealing with children, someone has to act the part of a parent.
I'm aware now that this isn't the way of this SR.
> Currently the moderators allow users to be extremely rude to other users. They should probably put the foot down a bit if they don't want just the same hand full of posters interacting.
Honestly it's not me (or any of the other mods) "allowing" anything. We have lives, take care of the sidebar in our free time (lol), and miss most of the posts that our 13,000 users post.
If someone is being abusive, report it. You can't expect the mods to be everywhere, all the time.
(PS thanks for the comment)
> Currently the moderators allow users to be extremely rude to other users. They should probably put the foot down a bit if they don't want just the same hand full of posters interacting.
I have only seen one instance of "extremely rude" here. Overmoderation is not the answer. Voting by the subreddit users is supposed to be the moderation. If a comment gets below a threshold, it even starts minimized. Voting should be able to show what information is useful, and what is unhelpful. If more people voted, there would be a better reflection of what was wanted, and what was helpful.
For instance, (discerning vote tallies is a bit more muddled now but) this post has 75 comments. It has been voted on 12ish times. Some of those comments are from the same users, but the majority of people don't vote.
Downvote and move along if something isn't helpful (keep in mind that downvote isn't a disagree button)
Upvote what is good, correct, and useful.
Report what is actually hostile and unwarranted.
Exactly this. I've seen a few folks very consistently brag about their knowledge and how much money they spend to help the community, but do absolutely nothing but bitch about folks not reading the sidebar. I'm not going to name names but you probably already know who I'm talking about.
Hopefully this will be a wakeup call to all of the members who see themselves as veterans of DIY and that this sub will take positive steps forward, instead of digressing into the whole, "The Y in DIY means YOURSELF. Do it yourself!" attitude.
I feel like this is a bit too true. It seems to me there is a demand growing for information about DIY and this sub plays a big role in that. The way we present ourselves to people getting into this should be more constructive, welcoming and professional. I check posts most everyday and see "Read the sidebar" so much that I feel it takes away the point of discussions, but at the same time the information included there really does cover about 90% of the new questions coming in. I don't think we can stop the constant "What should I do?" "How do I get started" questions, but we should really think twice about our responses to such questions. One abrasive comment can turn away someone who doesn't have the confidence to pursue this, and that's one person lost in our community.
I also want to add that as a mostly mobile user for a few years, I didn't know you could see the sidebar until recently...(dumb I know). But this could be the case for a lot of people.
Edit : Is there currently a sidebar bot? I don't know if there is, but maybe a bot that links everything in the sidebar as a comment could be helpful, without being abrasive or condescending.
> I check posts most everyday and see "Read the sidebar" so much that I feel it takes away the point of discussions, but at the same time the information included there really does cover about 90% of the new questions coming in.
That's the thing- the posts which are actual discussions (not just a repeated, simple, easily found question) are actually mostly excellent!
Sidebar bot is the best idea I've gotten out of this thread. I agree strongly with everything else you wrote as well. We can refer people to the sidebar politely without changing the core of our message. Thanks for your comment.
I keep thinking of that scene from Mad Men when they're pitching to Lucky Strike the "It's Toasted" slogan. I think we should have the same approach. Everyone involved in this sub has a responsibility to promote it and contribute to it in some way. People can do all the research, read all the sidebar, watch all the videos, but they still want someone with experience, someone who knows what they're doing to say "It's okay. You're going to be okay". This reassurance I think is what gives people confidence to experiment and step out of their comfort zone to try something new. We should be reassuring new users, while also helping to hone their skills in a safe manner so they don't try anything too crazy or outlandish. I think a sidebar bot is a great approach to get rid of the "READ THE SIDEBAR" comments, but when people are posting these redundant questions, they really want to know if what they're doing is going to be okay.
I know this sounds all happy lovey dovey, and not everyone will agree, but this approach can really expand our user base and help out a lot of people.
Being 'unable' to see the sidebar (as you've said) was the exact thing that has stopped me ever posting here (aside from this comment, of course). I didn't know how to view sidebars in Alien Blue (had never felt the need to as I was, and am, a lurker primarily), and got shouted down by somebody who was extremely rude and quite nasty on a thread about it. To be honest it's completely tainted any further possibility of me talking here, and the egos that do such things need to check their behaviour before they push new vapers out. I personally was very disheartened by my first interaction on this sub. Fortunately I was a strong enough person to continue regardless, but many aren't.
Anyway, maybe a sticky stating it or requesting that people read the sidebar would be beneficial for mobile users - perhaps with either instructions of how to, or links to instructions of how to do so in some of the more popular apps for browsing reddit. Even a statement of 'most first post questions have been answered in the FAQ, our sidebar' or something could help, and would come across as friendly, as opposed to the nasties on the threads!
A sidebar bot would also be good, to catch those that miss the sidebar or purposefully choose not to read it in favour of what they think will be a quick answer.
I'm with this guy. It's more of a place where people throw out recipe ideas, things they learned along the way to help newer diy'ers, and then people who ask for help and all but get shit on.
Some people feel a little intimidated doing diy juice bc they can find it daunting. I think it's normal to (even having read the sidebar) re-ask questions for clarification.
Exactly this. I'd also like to add that discussion on where to purchase supplies, pricing, and quality are all things that the sidebar cannot be the absolute answer to. I've seen plenty of threads turn into a "Read the sidebar" thread because someone asked what the best quality product is. The market is constantly changing, quality, and prices will always fluctuate. Even if the sidebar says that one of the best places to buy nicotine from is Nude Nicotine, what do you do when they don't have any nicotine to sell for 3 weeks?
This sub needs to remain an open and welcome discussion or it will die. All of the folks worrying about how it's going to get overrun in the near future are the ones that will end up causing it's death.
I do agree with you on your sentiment towards purchasing options. Those absolutely do change with time. Most of those questions get asked many times a week though, where there wouldn't be a big shift in the DIY markets.
A lot of the repeat posts that get annoying are the "recommend me flavors" or the "what can I make with these [insert picture]" posts that frequently pop up. Those answers are readily available just by either by using the search bar, or the sidebar. The "what can I make" posts always make me wonder "What the hell were you planning on making when you bought the flavors?"
I agree. I think we've gotta reconsider how we approach all this, and that's why I made this thread.
Newbie posters have just as much of a responsibility to post quality questions as do regulars have in posting quality responses. If someone can't put together a decent question (perhaps prefacing with "I've searched but couldn't find...xyz" or "In the sidebar is says xyz but I'm wondering about abc" then they should expect someone to put in as much effort responding to them as they did formulating a crappy post.
The questions that really irritate me are the ones where people post pictures of their juice and ask people to come up with a blend for them. Lazy posters deserved to be chastised and be passive-aggressively reproached for posting poor quality contributions.
I've been in this sub for about a year and a half. Most of the questions I have I can find by searching or looking around. I don't have any spectacular recipes to share. I don't ask what I can make with my flavors because it's a DIY sub, and I can experiment with what I have. I don't ask where to buy flavors or nicotine, because that's covered as well. So I don't post very much here, but I do read and learn a lot.
I think the huge gripe is that this is, in fact, a DO IT YOURSELF hobby/sub. And part of DIY is thinking for yourself and experimenting. The side bar and other threads here have a LOT of information, and the people who just pop in and ask what they should get, what they can make with what they've bought, and what they should make next really aren't trying. And after many months and many threads of dealing with those kinds of questions, people get really sick and tired of it, and that's why there aren't polite reminders anymore. If people did a little reading before they posted and got yelled at, they'd see that: a) their answer is probably here; b) people are sick of questions that are already answered here, c) they really need to read the sidebar!
It's not because this sub is full of dicks - quite the opposite. There are great people here, who share some really fantastic information AND recipes. They're just tired of ~~everyone~~ someone always wanting to do it all for them when it's already right there in front of their faces if they just take a little initiative to do some reading.
There's a misstatement here that I think it could be good to point out:
> tired of everyone wanting to do it all for them
Of course "everyone" there should be replaced with "always someone," or similar. I'm pointing it out (even though your meaning was clear) to draw attention to the pattern that the person answering is doing it for the umpteenth time, whereas the person asking is doing it for the first time. This is (imho) the central problem posed by the 'coming wave' of DIYers (including me), which has to be dealt with if this subreddit is going to remain satisfying/attractive to the skilled people I want to learn from (by, as you describe, lurking until I have a question that is both unanswered in the history and (hopefully) interesting to the people I'm asking.)
EDIT: learning to format
Okay, I can agree with "always someone." :)
Bottom line: Look around to see if you can help yourself before crying for help.
Except for "Bottom line," I agree :)
So many comments in this thread say, 'I mainly just lurk, because I can find my answers by doing so.' I'm basically in that group as well. But the only reason that's true is because there are people who still bother to read and post things who are waaay more knowledgeable. To keep that true, the "always somebodys" have to be dealt with by someone other than the super-knowledgeable.
So, bottom(er) line: searchbar-loving lurkers, take care of the easy questions so the people we love lurking on can spend their time doing the things we find interesting.
I have learned a bit from the sub. But there are a few things that bother me. (Maybe its just me. I don't know)
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People not having patience, what I mean by that is people here start thinking of stupid or dangerous ways of aging the liquid they make (the correct term is age not steep, use a dictionary) time is the best way to make something taste different.
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80% of the subreddit has one goal, and that is to sell their mediocre bland E liquid. And if you criticize anything (labels I'm looking at you) they go batshit crazy. Keep your stuff to yourself and friends, we don't need more Chocolate grapefruit with a hint of vomit.
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Is this safe to use. Do some research. Most if not all flavorings can be checked for inhalation with a simple google search of the contents. This also applies to VG. Ask the pharmacist, I'm sure he's seen enough neck beards ask him if they can vape his VG
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Clean yourself up!!! I see so many people post the stuff they make And you can see how dirty their house is or personal hygiene. I am a mechanic that gets absolutely soaked in oil or various heavy duty liquids and yet I manage to get cleaner than half of you grease balls.
/endrant
I will be the first to admit I haven't posted much, but that is because I just got in to this and have been reading everything. When I have something to contribute that hasn't been covered I will. My thoughts lean towards not allowing people to discuss selling their diy juice or making commercial labels here. To me, that is not a DIY topic. It is a separate issue entirely, and may cut down on the "I just bought 500mg/ml nic and 5 flavors, who wants to make me labels and buy my juice" non sense.
Edit-I know that there are some commercial juice makers that post here and offer valid information and experience. That should continue, and from what I have seen here most of those guys aren't the problem. It's the "my first science experiment, how much can I charge" crowd that is the problem.
I'm basically anti-shitposting, but I find myself a little softer on your #3, even though asking the questions usually means the person didn't read the sidebar/shouldn't be trusted with nicotine solutions.
I participate in another forum that ends up filled with battery safety questions, and the threads always end up split between engineers posting constant current discharge tables and information about which Chinese companies rewrap failed batteries on one side,
vs.
Shop owners who sell fraudulantly labeled batteries saying "No, brah, fer sick clouz, brah, get the Trustfire 75 amp, brah!"
The upvotes show the "bros" with the tit-sickest clouds win every time.End result? The engineers are tired of the hatemail, and either don't answer, or just repost pictures of IMREN, Trustfire, etc. batteries that have vented.
Yeah, that's the problem. People who pander to the idiots and agree with the crowd sensibilities beat out the quality contributors and intelligent but challenging discussions every time. And eventually, those of us in the latter category get exhausted by fighting an uphill unwinnable battle against ignorance and herd-mentality. Then we grow acerbic and sarcastic, and ragequit, and the community devolves over time into facebook. But most people haven't the foresight and objectivity to even consider this timeline or dynamic, and it's unpopular to even bring up. Lose-lose proposition.
Oh man, #2. I had no idea how many people are planning to sell their juice til I came here. Really took me off guard. I usually try to be a supportive person, but to me, thinking your juice is good enough to sell is like thinking you could write a popular autobiography. It could happen, but it's probably not.
It's the whole american dream problem. Everyone seems to think they're millionaire material but just not there yet. Everyone who writes or even procrastinates writing thinks they're the next Michael Crichton. Every school kid who plays sports think's they'll go pro and the rest of their team is why they lose every game.
It can't really be fixed since it's part of the culture. Everyone wants to win the lottery or have the next big idea, and they think they're smart/lucky enough to do it. People see bombies take off and they think their 100% stellar palate will bring them the same success.
The subjective nature of being human leads to all different kind of delusions of grandeur.
/rambling. i have shit to do
I'm guilty of joining the whole "go read the sidebar, dickhole!" movement. In my eyes, if someone here is saying "guys, I would love to have a cereal flavored juice. Where get?!", then they clearly don't care enough about taking the time to learn for themselves.
BUT. Recently I realized at work that I go through this every single day. This will be kind of long...sorry.
I'm the plastics technician for a plant that produces valve covers for Chrysler, GM and Chevrolet engines. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm kind of a big deal..at least in the automotive industry. Anyway. Being a technician means that I fix problems, or help people fix problems. I've provided materials for my workers to fix their own problems, located in a binder on each plastics press. When someone comes up to me and says "hey, NotCharles, this press is making warped covers. What do I do?" I don't tell them "lol not my probs, broski. Read the manual." I help them. Not because it's my job, but because I enjoy seeing things click for people.
This is not me saying "treat this as your job", because you shouldn't. This is your hobby. Not including the multiple users who are good enough to have actually made this their job.
When I first started vaping, I knew I wanted to start making my own liquid. I love cooking and baking, and I thought my knowledge of that would carry over. I looked around to see if there was a subreddit for it (of course there was) and I started digging. I don't like to annoy people, so I didn't post for a looooong time. I could have, and I probably would have been downvoted and poked fun at. I don't mind those, because I realize we're somewhat anonymous. But I wouldn't have gotten personal satisfaction out of figuring things out on my own.
I don't have a suggestion for the "non-sidebar-readers". Sorry. I'm sure I'll get as annoyed as others when someone clutters up the SR asking where to get VG. It's not the end of the world. I've just realized that some people want the easy way, while others want to have the satisfaction of doing it theirselves. My only suggestion would be for us to not let the anonymous aspect of reddit cloud our own personality. Treat these new people like they're a friend or relative.
Amen I totally agree with your logic my friend. People come here for help and some will not post because they feel they will figure it out for themselves. Others on the other hand have to be guided step by step. I am right there with you NotCharles I enjoy digging and figuring things out for myself. I think I learn how to get myself out a jam better if I tackle it head on and solve it. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with asking for help all of us are a different Beast!! If I can help someone and know what the right answer is I by all means will add my 2 cents worth. Anyway its great to have the info of the sidebar. If everyone used it there wouldn't be alot of discussion here I don't think. You know if you want more info just Read the damn sidebar.....Just kidding ;-)
Great perspective on this. That's exactly how I approach this subreddit. I also have a technical support background, as well as a teaching background, though my field itself is neuroscience.
I'm used to my operating level being pretty far above your average person's degree of sophistication and complexity -- I don't think it makes me better or more valuable, it's just who I am and how I work. I enjoy lifting people up towards that level, so I make a conscious effort to lean down and meet them in the middle. But I resent people for their stubborn insistence on dragging everything all the way down to their level because they're unwilling to lift themselves up even slightly to improve their own standing. This is the crux of the problem.
Exactly. Not everyone has the mindset of figuring things out on their own, but I can't fault them for that. They may be living on a low income and don't want to "waste money" digging through supplies to find the ones that work for them. They may be working 80+ hours a week and don't have the time to dedicate to trial and error.
I'll still have my passive-agressive sarcasm. That won't change. Same as /u/abdada.
Low income sucks.
One of the interesting side effects of having a low income, in my many years of helping these folks out, is discovering that they're wasting their most efficient time on other stupid shit.
In my personal estimation, only 10% of people who are poor are working 3 jobs and in between that sleeping 6 hours and never getting a day off, ever. The other 90% are wasting their lives away -- I can not only prove it, I put my name on this statistic regularly.
So just because they are low income does not mean they have no time, generally. And if they have time, and their money is so valuable to them, they should spend MORE time than the average middle income earner in patiently researching all the things they're wanting to spend money on.
Or they can just post without researching, get maybe 2 hours of visibility for a fraction of people who visit here, and get a simple single solution or maybe two.
No. I refuse that.
Being poor is no excuse to not performing due diligence. If anything, being poor means you should perform EXTRA due diligence because money is more valuable to a poor person than a rich one.
Even though money is not a specific problem for me, I research every dollar I spend.
Maybe there's a correlation between these things. /s
Maybe a bot or something that will politely give a canned response spelling out the basics and directing to the sidebar. (No idea how bots work but I have seen some pretty intuitive ones) Also, it feels like the sidebar could be cleaned up or organized a bit better.
I like this idea. /u/InertiaCreeping, think we can make something like this possible?
Also the sidebar could probably be reworked a bit, I agree.
There is a subreddit where the box to enter new content has "i read the sidebar. i read the sidebar. i read the sidebar." filling it up in greyed out text. That could be a little bit effective perhaps.
Reddit's structure seems to assume a level playing for new content, and rely on the voting system for visibility of new content. If there were a huge influx of new users who all asked the same questions, that system (without more) may not be terribly fit for purpose. If there were a huge influx of new users who lurked a while before asking questions, the current system (with users like /u/abdada, who I think actually does the search (!) before chastising someone for not searching, and then often answers the question fully when a search wasn't so helpful) may work great.
FWIW (I haven't been here long) it seems like the "sidebar rage" only becomes a problem when people turn ad hominem with it. When someone says "read the sidebar!" and someone else comes along and answers the question, (whether that's with a written explanation or a link to the top result of a simple sidebar search) no one should end up feeling bullied. But sometimes that does happen and it gets personal; at that point someone needs to drop out of the exchange instead of escalating. Basically I guess I'm just saying that "don't be a dick" is working pretty well, except when people forget to do it.
EDIT: formatting
> users like /u/abdada, who I think actually does the search (!) before chastising someone for not searching, and then often answers the question fully when a search wasn't so helpful
I'm glad to see SOMEONE ELSE noticed that he does this. I'm always impressed when I see this, and no one gives the guy any fucking credit for how much work he puts into helping people because everyone gets butthurt about his personality.
I appreciate your well-reasoned and thoughtful post, and I usually think your contributions here are good as well. Thanks!
Yeah, I was an asshole at the age of 6. My poor parents. But I don't act like a knowitall unless I've spent some time actually knowing it and applying it myself.
My time is extremely valuable to others who compensate me very very well for it. Enough that I can dedicate dozens of hours a week helping people pro bono.
The problem is when my free information is used by deadbeats. I recently realized that society in general just can't be helped. When someone takes a moment to try to help themselves and only then asks for help, they're a rarity. 1 in 5 is worth sharing air with.
I refuse to pander to impatient people. I refuse to give value to the ones that bring the regulators into everything I love.
My favorite paddleboard river that was free now has a $15/day fee thanks to impatient sloths ruining a great thing.
These same lazy broke blowhards will make potent nicotine hard to buy. You watch it. Bookmark this post.
I gave him credit for something. I just don't remember what.
I always did a search and read the sidebar before posting a comment to do either. Always. And I never said to do either if I didn't find the answer in 30 seconds or less. If I pointed someone to ELR it was because I went there first and checked. From my fscking 3 year old mobile.
The reason I am not posting here anymore is because the entitled vape brigade made their opinion of me known, and in under a year it's going to be a shitstorm of entitled vapers asking for Lenola Cream^(or whatever is then popular) clones. FDA regs and all.
I spoke my piece about it and the democracy confirmed what I figured it would: people just feel like they can run ripshod over some simple, basic etiquette rules.
You can give a boy a fish or teach a man to fish...
> entitled vape brigade
Could you possibly be more condescending? Seems like you're the one who thinks they're entitled to treat people like dogshit for having the audacity to ask a question on the internet. As a lurker, your attitude has turned me off so much to this sub. Contributing to a community doesn't entitle you to act like a douche.
Let's not get personal here. His opinion is just as valid as yours. FWIW, I see the same problems he does -- I just voice them in different terms. You're not wrong (see my response to his comment), but like I said in a prior comment, this is a complex issue.
Edit: LOL at the downvoting on this comment of mine. How pathetic can you get?
And you are correct. When pertaining to reddit. My type is not welcome here. Hence why I bailed -- I took my leave without a lengthy battle. I respect the community and just proved it.
I have been invited to a community that expects members to do work themselves before wasting anyone's precious time. If I like it, I'll John Galt the engines of DIY vape society by inviting them over there.
I don't disagree with you, and I appreciate everything you've done here. I know you have zero interest in moderating your acerbic style or changing your personality, and frankly you often did MORE than me to help new users, but the fact that you also comment in your trademark style closes a lot of people's ears to learning from you. I think you can catch more flies with honey, but I know you've got better things to do than catch flies at all. I don't think you're wrong, but I also see the downsides of your approach. I've got zero interest in coddling people through their stupidity either, but I think there's a fine line between dismissing people outright immediately and giving them a chance to prove themselves worthwhile.
I still wish you'd reconsider your moratorium on participating here, and just moderate your participating to contributing what you have to offer and not bothering with stuff you think is beneath you.
Re: flies/honey -- I appreciate that view. I've been on forums since 1986 (Google supports this with evidence) and never once have seen it happen. Once entitled always entitled.
Sometimes you had seen me helpfully comment on a post that you yourself wanted to scream "read the sidebar!!!" at. Why did I respond with help? Because they said "I am sorry if this was asked before" or "sorry if this breaks a rule".
Taking just five seconds to say that is enough for me to dive in and help.
But someone posting " I'm broke and need a Lenola Cream clone asap"...do you think that poster will ever change or do good for others?
Any forum you go to (unless it's really small), there's going to be a growing vape brigade as vaping becomes more and more mainstream. You're going to have vapers with all sorts of different attitudes, pleasant and unpleasant. What I enjoy most about this SR is the amount of different personalities. If everyone has the same exact attitude, I believe this place would be dull and lifeless.
I've enjoyed just about all your contributions to this sub, and I like the abrasive attitude towards those who are not spending any time trying to figure out their own questions. There will always be entitled people in society, and not just vapers -- we can't make that go away. Therefore, there's nothing wrong with giving them a reality check every now and then and telling them to do their own damn research.
FWIW, I don't think you should stop posting here just because a few people can't deal with your personality. They suggest that you should just skip over newbie posts and the like so you won't be rude. Well, they should follow their own advice and skip over your posts and perhaps stop being so rude to you (isn't that the behavior they are trying to correct?)
That's the issue though -- this is my personality. It's also my real name. I've been on forums a very, very, very long time, and I've always registered under my real name, not an anonymous pseudonym throwaway.
All my life I've met people who found me thanks to me posting something just like I do here, and those people search me out, and some of them become customers ($$$) or fans ($) or friends (-$). There's value in it for me.
But when I am on a forum where I call someone out on their trashy lowbrow behavior and they attack back, I have to put them in their place. I can't do that here. It isn't acceptable behavior for some strange reason.
Since I won't tone down my harshness (I won't tone down my helpfulness, either), and I won't allow some faceless jackass loser to spit attitude at me freely, I don't have a place in this community.
I've gotten suggestions in PM that I should create a throwaway. No. Fsck that. I am spending a crap ton of money buying ingredients to experiment with and share "freely" but I want something out of it (reputation is usually what I like best, over financial profit). I am not going doing it for charity, I'm doing it for either history's sake, or for financial gain. I'm a profiteer, a retched bounty hunter, and my bounty is discovering ways to disrupt shitty industries.
The vape industry is one of the shittiest, shadiest industries I've ever come across. People jump and cheer vendors who use fake names and don't list ingredients? That's insanity. That's fandom. That's consumerism mindsets at its worst.
So I heard my siren calling my name to come and disrupt. But upon being a part of the community (not just reddit, but a variety of them), I realized: most of the people who vape are just consumers, will always be consumers, and consumers have one purpose in my life: to consume something that I produce so that I can buy an island in the Bahamas.
These aren't usually co-producers, my friend. These aren't generally people who will ever amount to anything more than shaving a nickel per ml off their addiction.
I like finding equals, and my method of harshness and love is well known in leadership circles as "push-pull" or "reward punish". It's how I meet equals and how I make the world a better place for myself and my offspring.
And I've met a few of you here who I really appreciate and respect and want to engage in better, but I discare to share those findings with consumers who don't want to take a literal half minute of their time to follow my advice and read the sidebar or use the seachbar to find their answer that I found in 30 seconds of my own time.
I'll be posting my findings on a blog for the public to go through. I won't interact with that public. They can waste someone else's time, it won't be mine.
One (fill in the blank) doesn't make a majority... keep teaching!
EDIT: thanks for the downvotes-sans-responses, they gave me some upsight on A.B.'s position. I said "(fill in the blank)" not because I'm afraid to use the words "entitled vape brigadeer" but because I didn't want to take a side on that issue but did want to make the point that one person (good or bad) doesn't indicate a "democratic confirmation" of someone's unwelcomeness.
Lol.
Nah I got enough hate mail in PM after the lengthy discordant conversation last week.
Lots of lurkers here. Taking but not sharing.
It wasn't just that schmuck but plenty of others. I have been ousted many times before and in every case it was doing exactly that which got me invited to the forums I prize and feel privileged to be a part of.
Seems like the Illuminati types won't invite a guy until the mouthbreathers push him out.
Not saying this will 100% help, but cleaning up the sidebar to something like this just to make it easier to read through.
Under resources, those would link to a topic you can create with sub-links to the rest, if that makes sense.
For example, you can click on "Juice Recipes" and it takes you to a topic that has links to "TFA Recipes" and "Capella Recipes" etc. It would just clean up the sidebar and make it (in theory) more manageable. Clicking on Calculators links you to a topic with links to all the calculators currently in the sidebar, etc etc.
Thanks for doing that. Tagging /u/InertiaCreeping for this suggestion so he can look at the image you put together.
It's 3:10am here, so I'll get back to it, but yes this is a great idea. Thanks /u/smoakleyyy
(and all other commenters on this thread, I AM reading everything)
I like the idea of a streamlined sidebar but if you look at the 'read the sidebar' responses, you will often find a 'but I'm on my phone, I don't [see | know how to get to] the sidebar' suggesting that (listed in increasing likelihood)
- they don't use a computer and honestly don't know the sidebar is there or how to find the sidebar.
- they prefer not to use the computer and/or prefer not to find the sidebar on their phone.
- they don't want to read the sidebar and are using a common, convenient excuse.
- they feel they don't have time to waste reading the sidebar (or anything else) and want information handed to them.
The search residing in the sidebar compounds this problem.
If only we could swap the sidebar content with the posts. :P
When the mods don't have a sticky at the top of the sub for threads like this/special announcements, I have a simple hack:
- Copy the sidebar content to a special post
- Mods sticky this thread called "THE SIDEBAR"
- Modify CSS to always hide the sidebar sticky post for desktop users, the only ones who consistently see the real sidebar.
This makes sure the message is right in front of the mobile users, regardless of the app and what it shows by default in a mobile/tablet layout, and gives us a URL to link to anytime we point a user to the sidebar which will work on either platform.
edit: Hah, /r/readthesidebar is real
That may work even if it's not stickied... Hmmm. Won't stop the posts that are answered by the sidebar, but a thread with all of the info you could ever want starting out formatted with beginners in mind could be a place to point people to. Then again, the wiki could be that too.
Too many threads already fighting for sticky position.
Paging /u/InertiaCreeping - I'm totally newb to formatting but if there's anything I can do as a mod to help clean up the sidebar to something like this suggestion, let me know!
hmmmmmmmmmm maybe I'll create a bunch of wiki pages which the sidebar will ink to?
Honestly, looking at it closer, I think the biggest struggle we have is the image @ the top of the sidebar. When viewing full screen on a desktop, you don't see anything below DiY_eJuice Etiquette without scrolling down.
I think if the Common Questions and Recipes & more! sections were closer to the top of the sidebar somehow, it would garner more visibility and more review of them first.
I'm going to make some adjustments right now and save what I'm replacing/dropping in a text file, let me know what you think.
Edit: Nevermind, I can't move that image.
The sidebar is a mess, I just started and had to get on my laptop because on mobile it wasn't worth it to back track on everything, and then it was just as bad on full reddit.
It's really not that bad, but if you'd like to see it improved, as we all would, some suggestions would be a lot more help than just saying it's a mess. What would make it easier for you to use the sidebar as a new member?
As a beginner it's a little cluttered, I realize there's a lot of info to get across but I feel there's too much for one side bar. I would almost think there should a be a link to a different beginner subreddit, with links to the main supplies websites, a quick beginner recipe guide with, a list of the most versatile flavors from each company, say a list of 10-20 flavors from a single vendor and a list of popular recipes you can make if you have those flavors. I was checking the side bar and got overwhelmed. I got my starter kit order from nude and then went to look for recipes and the thread for best of 2014 is a mess. Everything I found was a mix of a bunch of a vendors flavors and there was no rating since voting was turned off on that thread. With as much info as there is here I guess I just think a separate subreddit for beginners and their questions would be helpful. Unfortunately I don't know enough about diy juice to do anything with it.
It seems to me there are alot of people out there that really must not like to read or they cannot comprehend what they read. I think that's why some want people to explain it to them like they are a 5yo. Which I have seen that question a few times. I feel that if someones request for information bothers you just don't reply. To be flat out rude to someone is not necessary. This is a forum and forums are created to ask for advice from people that have more knowledge than yourself.
I think with the number of people that use this forum you will always get the ones that have a short temper. I don't know why some think they need to act in such an awful way. Granted this is the internet and some will always act like a angry child because maybe that's just the way they are in their life. When you have the question "These are the flavors I have and give me recipe I can make". There are some that just want others to do all the work for them. I have noticed that alot of new members would rather ask a question about something that has been asked a number of times than use the search feature. For some the easy answer is Read The Sidebar.
When I started DIY I myself read up on this topic for weeks before I purchased any supply's to mix. I think some people think DIY is as easy as just adding some flavor to VG and that will make a great tasting juice. When they realize that its not that easy they come here and ask that specific question that will help them in their struggle instead of reading what could be an over whelming amount of info in the sidebar. I hope members will not be discouraged for asking for help in fear of the few that might impose their rudeness on them/. I hope this forum can rebound and get a healthy amount of discussions.
I barely ever submit here and it has nothing to do with the personalities. It has more to do with the fact that most basic questions have been asked before, and if you search, they are still there.
I do however comment quite a bit. I have learned a lot from this sub, and I try to field the questions I know the answers to. If I don't know the answer, I try to point people in a direction the answer exists. I can only field so many "is this safe to vape" posts before my eye starts twitching though.
No matter how big you write sidebar anywhere, people will still just post. That's just how they are. I find it's easier to answer the question they had, if your sanity permits, and point them toward more information. If your sanity does not permit, just move along.
Overmoderation is not the answer.
Thank you for searching rather than cluttering up the search results with identical questions. This matters.
As for overmoderation not being the answer, if people find value in what I write, they'll have to accept that I will boot out people who refuse to keep the SR uncluttered with repeated requests for the same things.
The reason the search bar works, for now, is because past people helped to keep the SR uncluttered. In time, the search bar will be USELESS as your searches will bring up endless dupes and take a lot more time to filter.
Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for eternity...
Same applies here, answer his questions that have already been answered and he will keep asking them, teach him where to find the answers and he'll answer his own questions.
I have only been here for about a month. I was a little hesitant to post at first. But i read thru the sidebar and i use the search function a lot.
When i first made an original post i was a little scared that i would made some mistake but i was met with nothing but kindness and helpfulness.
However, it did feel a little like it was a lucky shot. That I just as well could have broken some rule i had missed and would get a hellstorm of hate. But i dunno, that's the feeling i get in most subreddits. Rules are needed in places with lots of people.
I don't know if my ramblings have been any help but i felt i needed to share them.
Thanks for sharing. Now shut up and read the goddamn sidebar! Just kidding! I appreciate your honesty, and I think most people who read and then ask legitimate questions have met with similar experiences to yours. Reddit can be an insular community, and it can be hard to break into a sub smoothly when you're new. But if you come here to learn, and you're respectful and amiable, we're helpful and polite as a whole. If you show up entitled and self-righteous, we'll shitpost you to death. It's no different than most of the internet, except we actually have something of value to offer here.
Thank you! I genuinely expected this to get buried. You must have read a lot of comments today. Good luck with your work on the sub, which is awesome already mind you.
It's my OP, so everyone's comments go into my inbox. I posted this thread because I care about this sub and its members, and I genuinely want it to survive and prosper. It would be foolish not to read everyone's opinions and take them to heart, even those that I don't necessarily agree with.
I'll throw my thoughts into the mix. I usually lurk, look for recipes, use this place as a learning resource but have asked a couple of questions and had zero negativity and have received some helpful feedback. I have read up as much as possible before posting and only doing so when I felt I couldn't find a proper answer or just needed a bit of guidance.
I have however, seen a couple of posts which have been rather poorly dealt with which nearly put me off posting myself. Just blunt comments about the sidebar rather than trying to offer any help. I get that it must be frustrating to see the same sort of questions over and over but reading the sidebar can only get you so far as a newbie and making the first step in pretty daunting, or at least I felt it was. Maybe a little more of a friendly attitude towards us newbies would go a long way.
Those who blatantly post looking for someone else do all the work without even the briefest look into a beginner's guide/the sidebar etc should still be told where to look to help themselves though...a little gentler push perhaps?
That's what we're working towards here. A gentler nudge in kinder words combined with greater accessibility and easier use, to eliminate excuses and barriers to using it. Thanks for your input, and never be afraid to post if you have real questions. We're here to help you help yourself.
This sub as been immensely valuable to me and my journey into DIY. I've read an incredible amount of information and learned so much.
I took the time to read the sidebar and perform various Google searches before diving in and rarely post as I simply don't have the time. I work 70-90 hours per week and don't have the time to take upon the immense amount of research that a lot of you have been kind enough to share with the rest of us.
As far as new DIY folks go, there is an incredible amount of information here and it is very daunting to the un-initiated. I used to work on a neonatal and infant critical care transport team, so mixing things in very small doses is something I have a lot of experience with. This experience made diving into DIY much easier than I would assume it is for someone who doesn't share that same experience.
I don't take it upon myself to post as much as I would like to, so this is probably more of an outsider's perspective. Here are some things that I think may help a little bit:
-
A daily index thread similar to what ECR did or is doing (don't remember if they still do it). We have monthly recipes, we have clone recipes, we have clone requests, we have TFA, FA, and Capella recipe threads. Why not index them into the stickied post instead of cluttering the sidebar. If the sidebar was left as simple as possible, I think more people would be more inclined to read it.
-
For clones, is it possible to vote on the most popular clone recipes and have a thread where they're all listed? Instead of mulling through multiple clone recipes, this may help new people decide on some recipes that they want to try when they make the first plunge into DIY. This leads me to my next point.
-
People are very seriously impatient. They're going to want step by step instructions on exactly what to do and how to do it. This sub provides that, but it takes work to find it. Recipes questions seem to share a decent chunk of the problem this thread addresses. A top clone recipe thread, voted on by the community will help this, imo. I often see people answer questions along the lines of: "Just start mixing some flavors you like and see what happens." Personally, I am not afraid of failure and this is exactly what I did. Most people will not respond well to that as it doesn't spoon feed them the answer. Pointing them to a clone recipe thread and telling them to purchase the flavors that they like of the clones they want to make will be a more positive answer than telling them to just experiment around.
I don't like the idea of spoon-feeding everyone's questions because they didn't do their research. If the point of this conversation is to minimize annoying threads, or assist newcomers as much as possible, I believe the aforementioned will help. This requires a significant amount of work and heavy moderation, but it can certainly be done. I think this is the longest post on Reddit I've ever made, so thank you for your time.
If you're reluctant to post here, just get hammered! All your inhibitions will fly out the window and you'll be sharing in no time!
I assumed this is where all of the "playing with koolada/menthol" posts came from, tbh
Just for clarity, the people complaining in that thread's contributions:
Vs.
The guy they successfully made quit.
For extra fun, read the thread where soad was helped extensively by abdada with bottles.
I know who I would miss more (hell, I wouldn't miss the other two at all, nor would anyone else, because they've contributed less than nothing. It's beyond pathetic the sense of entitled self-righteousness and incomprehensible obnoxiousness I get from those comments.
/u/abdada was actually very hard to beat with answers to new user's questions for quite a while. I was starting to wonder how he got anything done when he spent so much time here. Sure, there was the one time things got a little heated, but volume of help vs. that one time is absurd.
I tried. I really did. I am fairly certain I have engaged 100 people with answers for every 3 that I ripped on.
That brainless chimp who got into an argument with me came off as rude and abrasive in his post, which is why I put my foot down. If you re-read my thread, you'll see that I didn't attack him at all at first.
And if you read his general comments on reddit, he's that way. Am I abrasive? Yes. Do I belong to some of the most hated subreddits on here? Absolutely. Are my comments on other SRs generally motivational and focusing on self respect and individual responsibility? Always.
DIY is no different.
That's a little creepy.
Just because he helped me once a month ago doesn't make me wrong for pointing out how terrible he treated newcomers and other folks for asking similar questions. He volunteered to leave, and I very gratefully accepted.
We don't need someone around here that says shit like this: >That brainless chimp who got into an argument with me came off as rude and abrasive in his post, which is why I put my foot down.
I never once insulted the dude. I thanked him for leaving and called it a day.
I just want to say that I really appreciate everyone's responses in this thread.
I think are all in agreeance on nearly all points, and I will work on cleaning up the sub/making changes.
/u/inertiacreeping
(aka Mo)
I'm here to help however you would like my help. I know I'm not a mod (in this DIY sub, at least), but I am invested in this community and I don't want to give up on it. I like what we have going here, and it's my favorite 'mainstream' DIY community. I'd like to protect it and help it grow as the landscape of the DIY scene changes (perhaps dramatically) in the face of potential FDA interference with the juice market. We need to protect what we have while working to improve how we work. I made this thread so we could start the process of making that happen as a community.
I have metric shitton of ideas on this so it's a little difficult for me to structure my thoughts in a way that is easy to follow without seemingly going off topic...
I feel like the next stage for diyejuice is to become a community with it's own culture that stands behind a philosophy. Just look to subreddits for homebrewing, cooking, welding/carpentry/mechanics or assorted boys club/girls club - type subs. Sites/forums like TDI-Club are much the same way. In business, you sell a brand just as much as you do a product. We need to recognize that diy_ejuice could very easily be a means to bring people together and usher in the change we want outside of this reddit. Regulation, helpfulness, good business, progress towards creating otherwordly dank flavors, etc#
You want to bring people together with similar mindsets and beliefs and don't encourage or support the ones that go against that. Any alternate mindsets/beliefs will work themselves to the top in time if they're worth it. Forced civility/amiability retards progress. Nothing will move diy_ejuice forward faster than controlled upheaval. The changes it'd take to set this in motion aren't radical either.
We are the gentoo or arch linux of nicotine. We need to embrace it and run with it. Forking the community is just going to throw away all the traction this community has gained. There is a lot to work to be done on the side-bar but any and all efforts will be an ineffectual waste for as long as we don't attract the valuable people we desire nor immunize ourselves against the exploitative, idiotic, or otherwise toxic.
--Note: expect edits
I like this train of thought a lot. Thanks for this, as well as your other manifold contributions here.
I see myself as a helpful/productive person but I'm not sure if I'd say that's demonstrably the case on this forum. Bit too busy with IRL to do as much as I'd like. Let me know what you think of this - mostly the last bit: http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/30p91b/are_you_afraid_to_post_here_is_there_an_issue/cpux41s
I'm glad someone else pointed out the parallels between this and the open source software community. If anyone here ever feels like their feelings have been trod upon for whatever reason, and they want an example of real hostility, go to any of the open source project's listservs and ask them to write a piece of code just for you.
"RTFM" predates 'the sidebar' by a long shot but they have identical messages. What this sub does and may continue to do is not an original work or effort in form. Look around and you can easily see the pathology. I assume the mods and leaders have done so.
The other side of that there are those south american/turkish/pakistani debian fork type guys that are the some of the kindest, most helpful, down to earth guys you'll ever share a github repository with. It's a significant difference in culture and beliefs. More than anything they want to help others - largely by making things more accessible - something missing in many of the big-ego top #10 college people that saturate the industry so heavily.
It's a real grass-roots kind of thing. Something I believe we should emulate here.
The smaller "foreign" communities are much, much more like '80's Usenet/forums/bbs. It's always a relief to find a new one in one of my special topics.
I think it's size, though, more than anything else. Reddit searches aren't great, but I'll regularly find amazing jewels on here from previous master posters who, not surprisingly, I never see post here anymore.
My experience seems to completely go against everyone else. I don't use a scale (loser), don't do 12 ingredient recipes (lame ass), do many flavors above 10% (ridiculous) and do mostly single flavors (dumbass). After that the last thing I'm going to do is post anything about it.
Wow dude, do you even vape?! Just leave already, poser! /s =P
There's nothing wrong with mixing however you like to mix, whatever you like to mix, and I'm not going to judge you for it. Neither should anyone else here, so feel free to post. I don't think it's unreasonable to use TFA and similar flavors up to 20% in most instances, and neither do many others. You've got to remember that there's always a silent majority who are usually lurking, so if you do things differently, don't let a vocal minority sideline your voice -- you have equally valuable input to share! (dumbass! =P)
I posted once here and got some unwelcoming comments, but alas this is reddit, I should have read the sidebar.
Yeah it happens quite frequently. We need a way to fix this issue, not just acknowledge it occurs. I'd like some suggestions!
Maybe some more moderation? I feel like if people got reprimanded for raging at new users, sidebar rage or not, it might prevent some of the unwillingness to post? I could be completely wrong, but it's just a thought.
I know we aren't going to get lollipops unicorns and rainbows here solely because this is reddit, and people like to be inconsiderate, but places like ecr, diy_ejuice, etc... Are supposed to be about helping people, chatting with people about a like interest, showing off your new mech, and talking about current regulatory issues surrounding the subject. Not about being a dick.
But again, this is reddit.
Edit:had to fix that tiny mistake before people get a troll-boner.
Thanks for your thoughts. Here's a couple more thoughts:
Re: Mods. Who do you think it is who made the theme at the top of the page & the image at the side over the sidebar say what they do? (Both: Read the Sidebar!) Only mods can do that. The mods are firmly on the side of reading the sidebar. Let me explain why: If we don't create an environment where people are encouraged to read the sidebar, the entire sub is going to be ruined. We already have a TON of "my first order flavors", "how do I do the most obvious thing", and other overwhelmingly simple questions. People cannot have discussions in the midst of those posts. There's very little to discuss there. No one learns from them either, and if they're tacitly encouraged and not managed, people just post a series of them instead of finding their own basic answers.
This dynamic will kill the community, because no real content will be able to get through, and the people who are working at a higher level and want this real discussion (like I do), will give up on the sub entirely and stop posting. Then there will be no experienced users to answer the flood of newbie questions that are in the sidebar, and no recipes or anything will be generated by experienced mixers. I am all about helping new users, and I politely and kindly recommend them to the sidebar when appropriate, but with real questions and legitimate inquiries I always try to answer them. Unfortunately they're few and far between in comparison to the sidebar posts.
My question is how do we handle this issue better, for the longevity and quality of the subreddit? Not how to we coddle people who won't do their own basic legwork. I'm not here to be a dick, and while I like to help people, if there's nothing for us experienced mixers here anymore, we wouldn't stay here and no one gets any help. It's a complex issue.
Every subreddit has issues with people not reading the side bar, unfortunately. I joined this sub quite a while ago, before the side bar was anywhere near what it is now. It is a wealth of information for both new and experienced mixers alike. There isn't many ways to tell people to read it without coming off like an ass or looking like you don't want to help people.
Now, if /u/abdada really has left, that is a tremendous loss for this sub. He not only had an interest in the more complex areas of flavoring, but he also had the means to experiment in that arena. That said, he routinely came off as a total asshole to pretty much everyone, but that is a trade off for what he could offer everyone in terms of information.
Part of the issue now might be the fact that we have done the tfa megathreads, but now tfa is regularly panned as crap or you need too much of it to notice the flavors. I primarily use tfa, and except for/u/fizzmustard's Nana clone, I rarely use any of them above 5% in my mixes
I AM an asshole. I've earned that attitude because the market has spoken and labeled me as valuable.
But look at how many people who I did indeed help because they showed they attempted even just 30 seconds to help themselves first. To me, that's enough for me to invest in them.
The asshole douchebag personality of mine comes out when people refuse to take 30 seconds to do a search or scan the sidebar.
Fsck them, they're impatient and impatience is NOT to be encouraged when you are talking about mixing 100mg/ml nic.
Just because you haven't hurt yourself or anyone else doesn't mean others won't.
You want government swallowing vape? Give advice to impatient slackers who play with dangerous chemicals they can buy without an ID.
I completely agree with you. These are issues that this sub has been dealing with for the year and a half that I've been a part of it. Mod posts like this one are nothing new, they typically happen every 6 months or so as this community has grown.
I've been the ass myself a few times when a new user has come in taking about using 100mg nic base off the bat but not taking any safety precautions whatsoever. I'm actually somewhat appalled that be people are being suggested to start with that strength. I started with 36mg base simply because I respected what could go wrong with 100. I worked my way up as I learned and developed better practices. An approach like that should be encouraged more, in my opinion.
I mainly lurk simply because either I the question is one I don't have experience with or someone else has already answered it. I don't usually post recipes because this sub has had a few shadier vendors admitting they have taken and sold recipes from here. Not saying my recipes are the cream of the crop, but I don't want other people making money off of my recipes and I don't see a dime.
Just wanted to interject. Yeah, maybe you're an asshole but I've come to think of you as our asshole. I started posting (in part) because of you. I can disagree with your politics and occasionally cringe at your (let's go with) prickliness but I have nothing but appreciation and admiration for the knowledge and willingness to wade in where others can't be bothered to tread.
Honestly, I was hoping no one would notice that I was obnoxious know-it-all while I hung around in your (not inconsiderable) shadow. [You'd have made a magnificent meat shield!] Hope you change your mind and hang with this sub. I assure you only that it will be mostly thankless. :) And I will miss you.
I always recognized this about you, and that's why I appreciated what you do. I didn't simply tolerate you as a douchebag, I knew you're a good guy and more than willing to help anyone who was even slightly willing to help themselves. But most people are apparently incapable of recognizing that, and only respond at an emotional rather than cognitive level. Fuck them -- I don't see why you'd let them dictate your actions or participation in this sub. I think you could avoid the whole issue by not wasting your time responding to the waste of time posts, and let the more tolerant of us handle them -- you can just ignore or downvote and move on.
You go about things the right way. Why aren't you a mod? if it's a question on say safety harsh is better than hand holding. Maybe someone should type a sidebar post and sticky it? Like in all caps, read this before posting for safety, starting business and recipes? That could possibly stop some of it. Or it can be gone about answer their questions and if they get stupid shadow ban from the sub temporarily?
I too use TFA primarily and the vast majority of my recipes come in at 14-18% total flavoring and tend to have at least four flavoring ingredients.
People are finicky though, everyone was swearing up and down that WL nic tasted peppery, and it never has tasted that way to me.
i don't see it as a problem.
if someone asks "how do i get into this diy thing?" then i assume they're not the type of person who should handle dangerous poisons. replying with 'you stupid fucktard, there's a sidebar' might make them cry, but maybe that's what they need. no one has ever responded asking what a sidebar is.
but lets say you let them in and tell them the parts of eliquid and where to get ingredients. their next post is gonna be either how do i make bombies nana cream, or i made a thing, how do i start a juice company. see the trend? no search, just ask the same question that was asked yesterday.
i think we're near a point where the mods need to define their strategy (or have strategy defined for them) as this sub is quickly becoming the replacement /r/electronic_cigarette. so the question is: do we want to be /r/science, or /r/ShittyDiy_ejuiceAndMemesAndUpvotes. i'm ok either way, i get most of my real info from dedicated forums and i like the memes. on the other hand, if we decide to make this a serious sub, expecting people to lurk for a while before they have the knowledge base to add to the discussion is necessary.
Great comment. Thanks for taking the time to give your opinion. So many people don't realize exactly that: If you coddle somebody, they'll learn their lack of effort will be rewarded and they'll just do it again! This is exactly the ruination /u/abdada predicted for this sub in his ragequit post, and I couldn't agree more. However, I don't see why we can't be nice about how we do it when we refer people to the search and sidebar.
I was sitting in bed with a blonde looking over my shoulder laughing with me on that ragequit thread. I don't get emotional online, but I do pay attention to how I can create value for myself when I'm giving my value to others.
That post made me realize I am sharing value with lurkers and jerks who will never give me value back.
I would rather scare off 80% if the remaining 20% would share and brighten DIY.
> with a blonde looking over my shoulder
This is my issue with you. You're pretentious. You always make comments like that, or how much you make, or how much you travel or whatever makes you seem better than the other plebs who post here. No one cares about that stuff, and it greatly diminishes you and your contributions.
Look, I mostly lurk, and I mostly agree with your opinions on people not reading the sidebar (tho I am of the just don't post attitude), so whether you're here or not, I don't care. I actually had you hidden for awhile, but you do contribute a lot of information that could be worthwhile. But sifting through the pretentiousness to find it is becoming more of a chore with less and less payoff.
And since you seem to be hung up on using your own name everywhere, well, so do I. My username is my name as well.
I understand and respect your opinions, even though we don't always agree. Apparently I'm in the minority with the ability to make that distinction. I guess I'll see you on the other side exclusively now. I'll let you know if I can make a difference over here when we talk there.
Are we a big enough sub to branch off into /r/DIY_eJuice101? The only annoying thing about n00b questions is it buries our more advanced discussions. Maybe even /r/DIY_eJuiceADVANCED
Doesn't work IMO, not enough people with knowledge will browse a 101 sub. I'm not the greatest font of wisdom but I subscribe to the main ECR as well as Vaping and Vaping 101 and I see how it goes over there - people ask 101 questions in the 101 sub and don't get a coherent response because most of the people on 101 are at a 101 level, then they post the same question on ECR and get yelled at for such a 101 question. Doesn't always go down like that but I've seen it more than once.
The latter more than the former I think. Otherwise you just have to post telling people to go to 101 rather than the sidebar.
Pre-apologies for the rambling answer that probably doesn't contribute much.
Short answer: Yes. Caveat: I don't find that to be a problem.
I perform (and yes, it is often a performance) technical support for a living. People not being able or willing to help themselves is a very standard problem. You will never ever ever solve people not reading the sidebar, not searching and generally needing help lifting the spoon to their mouths, never mind the chewing and swallowing. This is not specific to this sub. This is the nature of people right here and now.
And that can be OK as long as it's recognized by those that participate. As long as people are willing to answer the hawk sauce clone question for the fiftieth time, or whether or not it's safe to vape 'this stuff', and so on - that's fine. It takes real compassion and patience to answer the same question over and over without resorting to sarcasm or grief. It's an open forum. Stupid questions have got to be expected. If answering the same question over and over fills you with rage, this is probably the wrong place for you. As /u/abdada pointed out, this pattern is likely to only increase soon. Though his retirement from the sub sounded a little rage-quitty it really was a rational decision on his part.
For those that can't tolerate ignorance and ingratitude, a private sub or a place more stringently moderated would probably be healthier.
I rarely bother with any ecig subs anymore. Too many drama queens. I would guess I'm not the only one.
Honestly I feel like /u/abdada was 100% correct in that thread... he contributed to almost every single thread that popped up and helped more people then i can count.. for free without any strings attached.
I get that he was a bit abrasive to some new comers.. but honestly when 10 threads a day are "I didn't bother even acknowledging the side bar, but heres my question.." yeah those people need to understand the side bar is a ridiculous resource that SHOULD be read.
I posted in /r/weightroom awhile back and the guy who made that subreddit chimed in on one of my posts and pretty much told me I was an entitled little MFer since what I asked was covered ten times over in the side bar. I argued for a bit.. realized I was being lazy and actually spent 25 minutes reading the sidebar and boom found my answer. That's what makes that a great subreddit which people respect. /u/abdada gave people information which costs him thousands to figure out and pioneer for himself.. Should he have responded to that kid in the thread posted above in such a harsh way, no.. But if we give entitled people a hand every single time they ask.. whats the point of this subreddit? It should be for exploration of DIY and when people ask legitimate questions which don't pertain to "What flavor should I buy for my first order!?!?!?!?!" They should get qualified explanations.. Which /u/abdada gave without hesitation and of the upmost expertise. I feel bad for the community since a pretty good amount exiled this guy who literally helped 99% of people who posted here because some self-entitled shit thought he was above just putting in 10-20 minutes of effort to read the bar. Honestly I believe that mentality will lessen this community. Instead of having informative people who have knowledge beyond just following a recipe, we will be left with people who believe in handing people information, when those people have no drive to even look for themselves.. let alone expand the knowledge by experimenting themselves with deeper DIY methods etc.
TLDR; There's a difference between being polite and just handing people information that is readily available.. /u/abdada was wrongly "exiled" from this sub and other knowledgable contributors will leave to if this continues.
Say what? I have found /u/abdada the most helpful of anyone here, not to say others haven't been helpful at all, but hope he hasn't been run off. That would be travesty. What did I miss?
He was essentially run off by a hatemail & verbal attack campaign initiated by the user in the link I posted in my OP. That's what triggered me making this post.
Edit: Here's /u/clinodev's TL;DR summation of that linked conversation. I think he nailed it.
Come on /u/abdada those were just a couple of trolls. I have been ganged up by far worse on reddit for my unpopular opinion. I STILL get hate mail from ecr. This has been one of the most sane Reddit places I have been a part of. Don't let a couple of ninny douchebags spoil Shit here.
For me, I'm in sponge mode. I'm just reading as much as I can and just haven't felt the need to ask anything. However, I will comment that 95% of my Reddit activity is done through a Reddit client on my iPad, which means there is no side bar.
I can't speak to iPad/iPhone apps, but in my android "Reddit is Fun" app, there's an icon for accessing the sidebar of any subreddit. I'm 99% sure there's an app with a functionality along those lines for the biggest app ecosystem in the mobile OS universe too. I don't mind helping mobile users, but I've seen people use being on mobile as an excuse for the most egregious things (not saying you are at all, just mentioning it).
Are you an Android girl? I'm a huge fan of Android. I've had this iPad for almost 5 years. It's days are numbered. I'm going to see if I can find a different app.
I love my Note 4 even more than I love my penis. =P I had the original Google phone the T-mobile G1. I briefly changed sides with an iPhone 3GS, but returned to the fold with the release of the Galaxy Note and have been faithful through the Note 2 and onto my Note 4 since.
I've seen people say, on mobile, they had no idea that a way to access the sidebar exists. It may be beneficial to have a stickied post, something along the lines of
> "Newbie Questions Answered: "What flavors..." "Where should I Order from..." etc"
This thread would contain links to sidebar topics and have discussion below. It's also possible that the thread will go unused and the same newbie/"read the sidebar" dichotomy will endure hah
The basic problem with all reddit sticky suggestions is that reddit only allows one sticky per sub. Your suggestion, while excellent, would mean that all the other things the mods like stickied would quickly fall off the screen, such as the monthly recipes threads, etc.
This is a possibility. The main issue with this is Reddit only permits one single stickied thread per sub at one time (this one currently fills that slot, but usually it's our monthly recipes thread). However, we're definitely considering a "Master" sticky with links to the recipe thread, sidebar info, weekly newbie questions thread, and more, all in one. The only concern there is that people won't click on it to find out what's inside if the title doesn't directly pertain to their immediate needs, yknow?
I've been a long time member of this sub, and I have to agree that there a couple of pretty big issues that other people have mentioned - and some not.
The biggest issue for me is that this is definitely not a community. You can ask a question, but good luck, you'll get downvoted (for no reason) or you'll piss off one of the normal goers.
The organization sucks. The sidebar doesn't have that much information, the default recipes (by manufacturer) are never updated, and if you do want to find something, you have to navigate through dozens of monthly threads (and pray someone posted something good.)
That being said, some of the recipes I've found here are awesome, they're just really difficult to find. It's frustrating because this thread has so much potential.
So too much to read drunk after a whole day driving... But I read the sidebar, several times. Always use the search function before posting. Try to find the answer before asking the question. BUT, the wiki here could be vastly improved. I have found so much here that isn't in the sidebar but should be organized and wiki'd. I even sent a pm to botboy about one thing in particular.
However some people just want things given to them, like clones... I have no interest in clones, aside from a research standpoint. Otherwise I'm ponying up the money for their creation. My DIY is to make something mine.
That's my $0.02
Great thoughts. Thanks. Tell me what you'd like improved in the wiki -- it's on my to do list for sure. What'd you PM Botboy about specifically?
About organizing all the tasting notes for the various vendors into a wiki page rather than a threaded post. Also suggested % for each. Just as a starter place for people new to a flavor.
This place is a treasure trove of information that is sometimes buried way back.
I'm from the open source/digital side of DIY things, I'm pretty used to the "RTFM" response and doing a lot of googling. I find this sub warm and fuzzy, compared to "TITS, config file, kernel logs, version information and complete stack trace or GTFO".
Remaining cordial seems important, but I'm thrilled to be in a sub with a more old fashioned "search first" mentality.
I am going to order some flavors what are the best one I can get ?
It's funny, if people were really assholes, they'd be recommending Durkee and 1000mg/ml Chinese nic instead of saying read the sidebar.
Right? I know, it's SO rude and insulting to refer people to a carefully crafted guide specifically intended to save them time, effort, and money and quickly, easily, and safely help them make their own juice using our freely-given recipes and information we share with no expectation of remuneration or return. We're such assholes, it's almost unbearable.
This is more true than sarcasm.
Why do most people hop over to DIY? To save money.
The thing is, DIY is not a money saver for most, initially. It's a huge time dump. And the people I antagonize want to save money AND time, which is not realistic.
They want it all, without putting anything in. Even their own time to do a 30 second SR search.
Anyone have a good 100% pre-tested recipe for a 1:1 clone of my favorite vape, "Crab Juice"? Can you actually just make it for me and mail it to me for free?
That's my second fav video of his. I thought about it when I was nervous meeting him at a convention, and it settled me, lol. Can't say often enough how cool he is in person (pbusardo.)
hey, what's the best strawberry? which flavors will I like best? What should I order on the menu? Which pants should I wear today?
I am honestly afraid to post new questions here. I'm really wanting to get into DIY.
I've read every link on the sidebar, I've watched countless videos, I've read other forums and articles, and I'm still afraid to post here. I don't know all the terminology so my search results are poor. I don't know what to look for.
I have several questions, but I don't want to face the rage if I ask it wrong or missed a term that would have pulled the answer in search. I see a lot of posts here that have been helpful, but my questions are more basic.
I came across the post you referenced the other day, and this is the comment that kept me from posting.
>The letter Y in DIY means... yourself.
If that's true, then why even bother having a sub. If the purpose of the sub is to help, then help. I read that and decided if that's the help I can expect here, maybe I'll put off getting started for another day.
So many questions, so many seemingly helpful people, so many opportunities for easy rage that have already started to put me off from even trying.
First off... don't be afraid to ask. If you read the sidebar, etc. and you have questions, that's exactly why this sub is here. We're not going to castigate you for needing clarification or additional help, or even just some guidance on a topic covered in the sidebar. I know not everyone has been working in a neuroscience lab like I have for years and years, and they need more guidance and support than I did when I started. No one is going to rage at you for a legitimate question, and you shouldn't be afraid to ask. This post was made in part to quell that issue. So ask away.
The letter 'Y' in DIY does stand for Do It Yourself. Specifically, in contrast to "can you guys just do everything for me because I'm lazy and unwilling to improve on my own pitiful existance". I have no time or consideration for that mentality, and it should be ruthlessly discouraged here. However, that's a far cry from someone who has read the sidebar, and needs clarity or further explanation on something, whether it's their first day or second year. This sub is here to help people help themselves. That's the kind of help you can expect here.
We're not going to do the work for you, but we're here providing guides, explanation, links, recipes, and feedback from experienced users. If that's not enough for someone to get started, than frankly, they shouldn't be doing it at all -- DIY is not for everybody, not at all. It requires patience, perseverance, caution, judgement, common sense, humility, and a lot of other traits that are in short supply these days, and the best thing we can do for the survival of our hobby (and the survival of the unfit) is to discourage those individuals from getting involved in DIY at all. It may seem harsh, but it's no harsher than telling your 5-year old he can't drive the car or play with Daddy's chainsaw.
And I completely agree with the sentiment. And yes. Y does stand for yourself, I agree with that too. I don't get started in a sub looking to just get a bunch of questions answered and scoot out. I go in planning to be there for a long time, and become a resource for others. That's how I approach everything in life. I've seen a lot of good threads, I've seen a lot of poor ones. I've seen a lot of rage that seems misplaced, but then again I haven't lurked long enough to get a good feel for the populace.
I don't want to be looked down on for trying to start simple before moving into more complex recipes. I don't want to seem like someone who is starting to DIY just so I can make one note house juice. But simple is the best place to start. I also don't want to toss hundreds of dollars at flavoring just to find out this isn't for me.
I don't know, I guess I'm rambling a little bit now. I'll try to organize my thought, read a little more, and come back and get my questions out there.
Sounds to me like you're doing it right. No one is going to fault you for that. Everyone was new at some point -- there's nothing to be ashamed of about being new and having questions. It's all in how you choose to approach the process of starting out. I'd be willing to bet $100 that if you asked your questions and mentioned you'd read the sidebar, you'd have gotten helpful and polite responses (in the absence of this sticky).
Very well-said.
What I saw when I first came here, was that this sub was for the next level - the people who had learned about vaping, and were ready to take it to the next level by creating their own e-liquid. They collaborated, they shared new ideas and recipes and methods. NOT "I'm clueless and lazy and want to save money but don't want to do any thinking or research for myself here. Someone do it for me."
It's obvious when someone comes here and doesn't know where to start, but is stepping up to learn and be creative, and do a little research to learn how it all works, vs.someone just comes over to save money on Honey Pearry or Nannerbear or whatever and doesn't want to take matters into their own hands.
Pretty much exactly. I don't have any problem whatsoever helping the former type, but we're not here to pander to the latter type, and the people who seem to get up in arms about "Read the Sidebar" responses are mostly of the latter type. That's fine for them, but it's questionable whether they even belong here at all. ECF would've banned them long ago, but we're more lax, so we just chuck passive-aggressive comments at them and downvote.
I've only been into DIY for around 2months now and have had a lot of success thus far. I think I have all the basics and more down and I learned it all from reading the posts & searching the sidebar. First thought was just direct people to sidebar but without being a dick, on the other hand multiple posts of the same will end up hurting this forum. Is there a way to have a bot that would stop duplicate posts & link them to already answered posts or direct to sidebar?
Sodakdave - I'm going to ask you to participate in an experiment, and in return I'll invite you to PM me with any question you have that you can't find an answer to. I'll even PM you my phone number if you'd like, to help you through anything that you still need help with.
Think of the five biggest questions / problems you have and then use the sidebar, search function, and wiki (still in relative infancy unfortunately) to find the answer to these. If you can't find an answer within 2-3 minutes, PM me the question or reply to this post. If I can't find the answer using the same resources, then I will personally see to it that that question is answered and searchable. So for 15 minutes of your time, I will give you everything I can personally offer to get you started in DIY. Heck, if you're anywhere near Cleveland, I'll even have you over for a mixing session and a couple of beers. Deal?
I only have a couple questions left right now, but I'll look for some of the ones that I've gotten answered already.
First is searching for recipes that use a specific flavoring. My search term was "search for recipes using a specific flavor" and only got one result that didn't seem helpful. Now that I've gotten a response to my post, I searched for "search by flavor", and found a post about the feature being added to e-liquid-recipes, but I don't know if it does what I'm looking for.
I still can't figure out how to use that feature, if I add the flavor I want to work with to my stash, and do either search by stash or what can I make, nothing comes up. I did not see anything in the sidebar, or wiki about this, nor would I expect a user guide for another website. Either way I could not find a useful answer. In stumbling around, I actually found the dot1ml site to be much better at finding recipes with a specific flavor included. I didn't see that mentioned anywhere at all.
The second question I haven't asked yet are if "concentrated" or "super concentrated" flavoring needs to be measured differently than normal flavoring. I did a search for "measuring super concentrated" and only came up with one post, and there's only one reference to super concentrated flavoring mentioning that tobacco and some super concentrated flavoring starts at 2.5%. There's no information I could find in the wiki about it, and nothing that I recall on the sidebar about it. What do I do if I'm making a single mix with a super concentrated flavoring? How do I incorporate a super concentrate with regular flavorings? Do I just start at 20% (I know, the beginner guide says 5-10-15% but it doesn't mention the concentration either)? Do I need to start lower for single flavor mixes?
The last question which is an admittedly very subjective question, is if something like the single flavor capella lemon meringue pie v2 (which not of the calculators seem to have yet) would be a good single flavor starter to experiment with to find out if I really can see myself getting into the DIY world. This is nothing that would be explained in the wiki, since it is very subjective. Doing a search for "lemon meringue pie v2" brings up little to no information about that specific flavor. More importantly I was looking for whether or not single flavor mixes would be a good "first bottle" as a test to see if this is something I want to invest more money and time into. I don't want to put a bunch of money in and find I don't enjoy it, but I also don't want to have a bad experience with a simple single flavor mix because I got the wrong brand or wrong type of flavoring. I think that's a question that could most effectively be answered by the community.
I know I only came up with three questions, and not the five requested ones. I think I'm too new to really have 5 questions yet. But if you can point me to where I missed at least the first two, I'll concede that I'm bad at searching, hell, I'll admit to that anyway.
I appreciate the offer, and I may very well take you up on it. I'm nowhere near Cleveland, but if you ever make it out near Sioux Falls, I'll grab the first round.
Thank you for taking the time to listen to my ranting, and point me to where I might have gone wrong.
Please let me know
Ok, let's see what we can do.
- "search for recipes using a specific flavor" is a meta search - you are searching for a method of searching rather than doing an actual search. Let's use TFA Strawberry Ripe as the flavor you are interested in. Here's three ways to get what you want.
a) Search function. Putting "TFA Strawberry Ripe recipe" in the search bar get you these results; over 50 threads that you can explore for ways to use this flavor (don't include the quotes, but check the box that limits your search to this SR).
b) User /u/udaath has this website where the same search (w/o 'recipe') yields - surprisingly - only 6 results. It is linked in the sidebar and also in our weekly "what can I make with my flavors" thread. If you register you can input all your flavors and it will give you all the recipes that include those. Use the url here to get that functionality. IMHO this site suffers a little because one user can enter "TFA Strawberry Ripe" and another "Strawberry Ripe TFA" and they are not counted as the same flavor.
c) In the sidebar is the link for a (probably outdated) TFA thread. THere are recipes, but more important at the bottom are some recommended percentages to start with.
-
Don't worry about concentrated vs super-concentrated. At all. If the recipe says "TFA Strawberry Ripe" we are ALL talking about the same flavoring at the same concentration. If you are worried about over-flavoring, start low and build up. Here's what I do when working with a new single flavor. Add nic to the bottle (optional, but it does affect the taste). Add flavoring. For most, I start at 5% (.5ml for a 10ml bottle). Add VG ( I like 70/30, so this is 7ml), then get close to the neck with PG. Shake and vape. If it's too weak, add more and repeat (but write down what you did). If you find out you need a LOT of this flavor, just dump a bit out and add more flavor. You can always nail down the actual % on subsequent mixes.
-
single flavor mixes are a crapshoot, and pretty rare IMO. Flavorah has a couple that are good standalone (Vanilla Custard, Blueberry for sure), and some of the "composites" by the other companies can be used (for instance, Hypnotica by TFA is a good standalone), but in general you will want to blend these with other flavors to get a final recipe. Look through the recipes on this site - I'd guess at least 99% have more than one flavor, some up to 10 (avoid those as a beginner).
In addition to flavors, there are three additives that are absolutely essential to success IMO:
- Ethyl Maltol - When you need sweetness
- TFA Sour - adds a "pop" to fruits
- TFA Smooth - when you need to remove a harsh throat feel
So here's my summation. Use [this thread] (http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/wiki/first_order_flavors) to find some flavors that sound good to you. Also, find some recipes that sound yummy (I recommend the Clone and Monthly threads; sort by highest voted) and pick out the flavors that are required for those recipes. I like www.wizardlabs.us for small sizes of new flavors, and they now carry TFA, Capella, and Lorann, so you will find most of what you need there. Also pick up the three additives I noted, and some wizard dropper caps for the bottles because most of these are used at 1-3 drops / 10ml at most. Get some nicotine, some PG and VG, a few syringes and empty bottles if you need them, and you are in business.
Let me know if you need anything else to get going.
You won't get yelled at because you don't know the terminology. If you've read the sidebar, and looked through threads and still have questions, ask them.
The people here really are willing to help. But they aren't willing to tell you what you should buy (unless you have a specific question in regard to buying something), and aren't going to tell you what they think you should make. What we mean by do it YOURSELF is think for yourself about being creative with flavors and what you might like. And the part that gets people steamed are the same questions that are clearly covered in the sub and sidebar.
If you're having an issue, or confused about something, you can certainly explain what's going on and ask for some help with it.
Hey /u/returnity - i just want to say I think you're a pretty alright guy.
I am not afraid to post, but most times, I am here to learn. I find it very informative. I do see some people being lazy but for the most part it is fantastic!
I read in one of the earlier posts of the "Deeper DIY" series about some type of leveling system... what if we either use those or come up with a more liberal level hierarchy, and make it mandatory that each post is tagged by the poster?
- Example: on r/gonewild, the mods (or a bot or something) enforce the "gender tag" rule - all posts have to contain an [f] [m] or both depending on what genders are shown in the relevant post
We could do [Lvl1] [Lvl2] and [Lvl3] - possibly even correspond this with user flair based on experience of the poster.
I didn't think this through for more than 2 minutes before posting and I have ZERO knowledge of how to moderate a sub but I'm sure someone here can take the idea and make it practical and helpful
This?
The levels of Deeper DIY:
-
Level 1: Mixing pre-made flavors, VG/PG, nic
-
Level 2: Mixing pre-made flavors, VG/PG, nic plus enhancers
-
Level 3: Mixing pre-made flavors, VG/PG, nic plus enhancers and some aroma molecules
-
Level 4: Mostly aroma molecules with some pre-made flavors and enhancers plus VG/PG and nic
-
Level 5: All aroma molecules plus VG/PG and nic
I'm not sure it'd be relevant directly to the sub though -- for example, I know some 'Level 2' mixers who I'd say are better/more experienced/equally qualified to answer questions and provide information as myself, a so-called 'Level 4' mixer. It's just a fun little scale, I don't think it's worth using for flair.
I coined the leveling system and I think it's useful for people who are at level 3 or above, but newbs shouldn't really consider it. They should only be at level 1.
A newb can then play with level 2, of course, because it's relatively safe. Once you get to level 3, it's very easy to make vomit sweaty socks at 3mg/ml
yeah I totally agree, that's why the newb questions (like when we all tell them to read the sidebar) could be tagged Level 1 so we can easily identify deeper conversational posts and help out the level ones and twos as we see fit.
Question: are tags a real thing? I only use Alien Blue so I'm not familiar with reddit on a desktop browser at all, is it possible to sort/search a sub by tags?
I posted one time in this sub. All I asked is where the best place to get flavor extracts was. Granted, yes, I should have read the sidebar, but the ensuing anger an unnecessary insults from idiotic individuals was enough to make me simply not care about ever asking this sub about anything. Glad that this community is so accepting, and I feel bad for anyone who ever wants to ask a simple question in this sub.
You were probably the first person ever, within 3 minutes, to ask that exact question.
Never gets asked at all. And all of those repeated questions that are identical, every 3 minutes, has absolutely zero effect on the efficacy of using the search bar.
/s -- I just commented on this to specify WHY such a generic question can (and likely will) lead to ruin of the subreddit.
Just want to show everyone why he posted this in the first place. http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/304xb7/diy_virgin/cpuh3xr
Wow, if only I hadn't posted that link in the OP. I guess this is just another example of you not contributing anything to this sub. Color me surprised.
You didn't.
You're technically right, I posted the entire conversation permalink, not just a cherrypicked single post in a sad attempt to make a baseless, inaccurate conjecture about why I posted this thread -- the reasoning behind which is also explained in the OP, though I suspect that the actual premise of improving the community even for people who disagree with you is beyond your ability to comprehend, which is why you overlooked me saying it.
Honestly I think this sub would be a lot more effective if split into several different more accurate subs.
Like instead of everything being in one place there could be /r/DIY_eJuice_recipes (where people could specifically discus things like recipies, proportions of ingredients, ideal steep time, juice calculators etc.).
There should be another sub for supplies like /r/DIY_eJuice_vendors where people could discus what and where to order from. Post reviews of vendors. Etc.
I think keeping this sub as a place for general discussion, newbie questions, and for people to post photos of "vape mail" and whatnot might be good. But right now I feel that the sub is a little bit convoluted.. I know its cool and exciting starting out when that first shipment arrives... but vape mail pics doesn't really seem to add much to the community in terms of creating E-Juice in my opinion. Others might disagree. And I think that is part of the problem. This sub should be broken down into more specific subreddits with one larger parent sub. All of the related sub-reddits should be linked to each other at the top of the side bar.
I notice that a lot of comments aren't usually upvoted much if at all. And it seems like people use this sub for different reasons, depending on what they're interested in they downvote things they don't find relevant... and it seems to me that its not really helping advance this sub as a whole.
That may be what we need to do in the future, as this sub continues to experience substantial growth. But it's a risky move to fork a good thing until you're sure the forks can stand on their own. However, I think we're nearing that point. I'd be willing to contribute as a moderator if /u/kirkt & /u/InertiaCreeping, et. all, decide we need to have more moderation, better organization, or even fork the subs. I know we've got to adapt and plan for the future of FDA regulations before it hits us, or we'll lose control of the sub and lose more of our best members.
IMO "forked" subs is a really bad idea. Instead of suggestions to read the sidebar, we'd have "go post that in DIY_Noobs" or "juice vendors" or "recipes". We have specific places for recipes (monthly thread) clone recipes ( every 6 mo), noob questions (weekly), etc. The problem is people don't use them. There's no reason to think they'd use proper forked subs any better.
As to helping moderate - I don't think we need your help right now so much as want your help, since you've been a great resource for quite a while. I posed the possibility of you being a part of the mod team to the rest of the group; Botboy enthusiastically agreed and we're just waiting for the Aussie /u/InertiaCreeping to wake from his slumber and give the OK. I like to defer to him since he is a senior mod to me and has done so much to make this sub what it is that I don't want to undermine his status as the lead active mod. It's really up to him, but I think you'd be very helpful.
I agree, as I said in my edited OP, I think forking the sub is really a last resort option only to be employed, if at all, down the road if things grow to the point of being unmanageable. I see the same issues with that as we have now, plus new ones about the sustainability of the forks and the quality and vibrancy of the community. I just wish we could sticky more than one thread at a time, but unfortunately I'm not aware of any way to do that with reddit's platform. I know that's what sidebars exist for, but as you said, nobody uses that either. It's a conundrum for sure.
I'd be happy to take on the formal mantle of moderation. I spend so much time here, I'd be more than willing to share some of the work that goes into keeping this place running (smoothly?) and helping with some of the improvements we've discussed here. It seems people keep assuming I'm already a moderator anyways, so might as well retcon their assumptions! By all means, discuss with InertiaCreeping -- I doubt he'll object, since he and I co-mod the other side w/ abdada, but there's no reason to rush to a decision. He really has done an amazing amount of work in this sub since I first browsed it forever ago, and I'm not going anywhere.
Maybe an all-caps sticky permanently at the top of the page, something like 'if you're new here your first post must be in this thread'--the idea being to shepherd the noobiest questions to one place (where would-be 'what should i buy to clone X' posters might see their questions answered even before they post them). Getting people to read the sidebar on arrival would be more ideal, but people may be more likely to notice the top sticky than the spatially peripheral commands to do so.
My biggest gripe with reddit is not having stickies at the top of the like most forums do. You have to look for the 101 posts, you don't have to scroll past them.
However, you will always have people on forums who don't read the prerequisite posts.
The first time i posted a recipe i was a bit nervous which is odd for me. I hadnt been nervous about anything since my wedding and i fixed that with a little crop dusting in the hall way. I spent quite a bit of time just lurking here before i posted anything, reading and researching. I think i was a bit nervous because i didnt understand that it doesnt matter if anyone else likes what i mix except for me, it is just a bonus if someone does.
I pretty much have no problems or issues with how things work around here. After reading all the info i could absorb i had very few questions and found everyone quite helpful. There are quite a few useless posts that i just scroll past such as, "What is the best this or that?" or "Who has a clone of some particular juice?".
Outside of those posts this place has been fantastic, in just a months time i went from buying all my juice to making some fantastic mixes that i came up with myself by using some tasting information i learned here such as getting to know the flavors by adding a drop or two to a shot glass of water.
Now that all my rambling is finished ill just leave this here. Thank you all for sharing what you have learned.
It would be great if we could get tags on posts of pictures of flavors to filter them out. Seriously. We all know what tfa bottles look like. We don't need pictures of them every day.
maybe make another subreddit thats just for asking about mixing, what flavors to get ect. that way the people who do feel like helping can go over there and help.
This may be a bad suggestion, but I'll make it anyway.
How about a 3 strike rule in terms of searching/reading the sidebar. If someone has posted a question that can be answered via a search or link in the sidebar, someone politely links to the article and says how they obtained it (i.e. search or sidebar). The person who posted it would get a polite warning from a Mod. If this happens two more times they are asked not to post anymore (or perhaps a probation period before they can post again). Just a suggestion, not sure if it would work for real world moderation of the sub, but it would discourage people from posting without doing their own due dillegance. Also another suggestion would just be a DIY recipe thread (which can be cross posted here.) I'd suggest this as a place to post actual tested recipes (not "Hey can someone make me nana cream") kinda deal.
The biggest problem I have is searching the front 3-4 pages looking for helpful information and seeing >10 posts saying "I mixed my ejuice and it tastes like poo. Mix was 50% vg 50% flavoring"
I think the slogan of the sub shouldn't be "read the sidebar!" It should be "Seriously, Search First!" or "Overflavoring is bad MMkay?"
This sub is intimidating to me but that's a good thing. I'm still in the very early stages of diy but you won't see any "first buy, how'd I do?" posts. I'll be confident in my first diy purchase because of how many resources are available in this sub. Once I get a firm grasp of mixing and recipes maybe I'll post something here. So it's back to reading and getting the list of items I'll need. I really appreciate that sidebar though, I'm ready to start saving money and have fun doing it.
I'm not sure if its this subreddit alone, or others as well, but sometimes, when I look for this subreddit under the "My Subreddits" Tab, its not there. I have no idea why that would be but it just isn't there. I end having to search for it. Pretty weird.
I have a couple issues
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Literally nobody reads the sidebar
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People post recipe requests with no info
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People jump on those people for not reading the sidebar without even being remotely helpful
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This sub has quite a few (prominent) assholes/egotistical douchebags, but nobody cares that they're douchebags because occasionally they're helpful.
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Moderation could be a little stricter - removing clone requests that have no info, removing posts that clearly ignored all the available info, banning the douchebags, etc. I like our moderation team a lot (you're all super helpful and informative) but I'm not sure the "hands off" moderation style is doing much to help the sub.
I've been lurking/posting in this sub for probably 2 years now and I just feel that, like others said, its basically an info dump and not much else. I think stricter moderation would help it become more of a mix between info dump + discussion.
I think the issue with people skipping over weekly/monthly/generally important threads could be fixed with a permanent "READ THIS" type sticky that is always up to date with links to the currently monthly/weekly threads (and the old ones as well) as well as any important info such as stuff from the side bar and important discussion threads. Hell, I might go make a mock-up of a post like this later. It'd be so helpful.
I think this is one of the major changes we're currently considering to improve the environment of the sub. If you'd like to make a mockup for that, please do and PM it to me and/or the moderators, we'll definitely take it and put it to good use. Unfortunately, as I'm sure you're aware, we can only do one sticky at a time, so it's been difficult to keep things at the top that matter, and I think this is probably the best solution to the issue, though it has its own shortcoming. Thanks for your input and your contributions here; I often see you helping out and it doesn't go unnoticed.