It will, I think. Even without regulations.
Disclosure is easy -- even if you list every ingredient, without detailing the exact percentage you aren't giving up the recipe.
And people who want to avoid certain ingredients won't care if it's <1% or 5-10% -- the just won't buy it.
~~Wonder what alkaloid is.~~ nicotine derp
What do you think will be the extent of this in the short run? In the UK there's many manufactures that are just pumping out single flavour juices. Do you think it'll be enough to list the flavours added (TFA Strawberry ripe 5-20% kinda thing) or will it be more extensive with the companies that don't put in the hard research into aroma molecules being unable to meet regulation?
Well, there are always going to be people who don't want to bother mixing their own juice. Even with a relatively small amount of ingredients, it's still more time-consuming, messy and complicated than some people will ever want to bother with. A lot of people will always been under the impression that they'll get nicotine poisoning if they even look at a bottle of nic base wrong.
Besides that, there's no reason a juice maker would be required to list the actual flavor vendor on their bottle. Most likely it'll follow other products, so it'll have a list of basic ingredients in descending order based on percentage. So VG and PG would be at the beginning of the list, and then it would probably say "artificial strawberry flavoring, nicotine, artificial dairy flavoring", etc. At most they might require them to list specific flavor molecules, but I don't think even the FDA would take it that far: the labels would be so cluttered and the printing would have to be so microscopic that it would be useless. I mean, it's the FDA and they're certainly no strangers to requesting absolutely ridiculous things, but I'm basing my guess off of how most other industries label their products. As far as I know, no other industry is required to put the original vendor of every single chemical on their package, because ultimately that type of information makes virtually no difference to the consumer.
Government regulations don't exist for safety. They exist to reduce competition. If and when eliquid is regulated, we won't be safer, we will just have less choice. And fewer people will enter the market for their own profit and benefit.
A market is in the making already from multiple entrants to offer chemical analysis to juice makers. In a year there will be half a dozen market competitors -- unless government destroys incentive.
What's funny is I found myself very confused by the fact that if you read the bottle, the nic is listed @ 2.4% and the VG/PG numbers are WAY different plus DI water is 10% of the bottle's ingredients. Then I realized the box probably didn't go with the bottle lol.
I'm not sure honestly. I wrestle with this frequently.
Given that specific example, it's still ambiguous and likely confusing. That label lists 2,3,5-trimethylpyrazine which is a specific aromatic molecule. It also lists things like tobacco absolutes, essential oils, and "alkaloid," which are compounds comprised of many different molecules. It doesn't really say anything absolute but creates the impression of "full disclosure." I'm not certain that such a varied level of specificity does anything to increase consumer awareness and may adversely affect a consumer's risk assessment.
I wish I had a better answer. I'm in no way endorsing obfuscation or lack of transparency, however, we need to exercise care when considering how – and to what level of specificity – ingredients are disclosed.
I definitely feel you there. I actually didn't post this in DDIY because of this reason; I actually put it here because I was thinking more in terms of taking lessons from vendor flavoring designs rather than because I think it's the pinnacle of disclosure.
I agree with your assessment of the debateable increase in transparency, but regardless I'd still prefer this over 'Natural & Artificial Flavoring' (which is what my juice labels say too, lol yay hypocrisy!)
edit: btw alkaloid is the nicotine content
I doubt that this will happen unless the juice industry is specifically targeted - look a Coca-Cola, they have a secret magic flavor mix that's the heart of the whole recipe, they don't list any of the ingredients of it because individually they're all under 2% or something and if they were public then other companies would be that much closer to a clone. Look into the Pemberton recipe and the 7X flavoring, you've never seen Neroli oil on any list of ingredients but it's in there.
It's has more to do directly with the laws surrounding secrecy in the flavoring industry in general. As long as their ingredients are on the FDA GRaS list, they can get away with not listing them out. This applies to Coca-Cola as well as everyone else.
I find interesting parallels between Coke and the juice industry, this being one of them, the other being FDA conflicts due to stimulants. Coke was an FDA target in 1916, specifically because of caffeine and use by children. Interesting to see how this plays out with a diversified industry a century later.
There are all sorts of legal exemptions for "special recipes" and "Secret herbs and spices" and that kind of shit. A company can make a case that listing certain specific ingredients would be damaging to their unique product, so they're allowed to use something more vague (like " and other natural and artificial flavorings".) Doesn't mean everyone can do it, and I think they actually have to go through a process to at least show those "secret" ingredients are safe, but it's legal. FWIW, I don't think potential food allergens are exempt though, so they're required to put something like "May contain [insert food allergen here]".
The Chinese manufacturer of feellife(bottle shown in op pic) post the same ingredients list on all their liquid. I have bought over 10+ different flavors, all same. After that I found way to get DiY gear I need. If any one wants I can upload pic of the boxes. They just did barely minimum to get FDA approval to sell in US.
This makes a LOT more sense to me now. I was trying to ascertain what flavor on earth would need all this shit in it lol. Now I get it. Ironically, the FDA doesn't even require this of most manufacturers as long as your flavors use components from the GRaS list.
I think they put percentage of their popular different flavors on one box, then put stick of what flavor is in the box. I just don't trust Chinese manufacturers due to poor past ethics when it comes to consumer safety i.e baby formula that killed many babies because manufacturers decided to cut it with other substances to increase profits. There no hard quality inspections by government (there are safety regulations) to ensure safety as brides can ensure most issues overlooked.
Actually there are no current regulations from the FDA (or any other regulatory agency) regarding eliquid ingredients in the US. That'll probably come whenever the Deeming Regulations end up going into effect. And for better or worse, the FDA is well aware that the GRaS list for food flavorings doesn't automatically mean a flavoring is safe for inhalation. I wish they were that dumb, but alas they aren't.
Hence why I said the FDA doesn't require it. And you're right, the listing of ingredients is not technically required at this point, but what I was saying is that vendors list them as they do to comply with existing policy regarding GRaS food flavorings. I was not trying to claim that such regulations existed or applied directly to ejuice, it's just the closest existing policy guideline that most of us are using when we sell and label our juice.
Hey, I have this exact bottle of juice at home (freebie I got in China). Can anyone tell me if these chemicals are normal ones that won't be an issue to vape?
Haha, no shit? Which flavor do you have?
The juice is fine, that flavoring list is literally EVERYTHING in all of their juices, it's not all in one.
If you're trying to clone, yea, it would be great.
For a consumer, nope.
Coke and Pepsi don't list that on their cans of soda.
This would not be fair to anyone offering a product other than listing certain ingredients (what can possibly be harmful). They should never have to list specific flavors or percentages of those flavors. Other companies don't have to do that. They would go out of business.
Yeah, TFA is in a death spiral ever since they published those MSDS sheets with GC/MS analysis. I head Open Source Vapor is out of business too, ever since they printed their exact recipes for every juice on the bottle and their website. /s
Let's not be hyperbolic about this.
Where did you hear that about Open Source Vapor?
I realize this is Chinese made, but do U.S. mixers use essential oils?
I read long ago about Lipid Pneumonia and never look further into it.
Distilled essential oils contain no lipids and are perfectly safe to vape. Orange oil and clove oil (containing eugenol) are a couple popular ones to use in vaping, off the top of my head, but there are more for sure. Nature's Flavors/Medicine Flowers extracts are basically essential oils distilled in this manner, and NF is then solvated in EtOH while MF remains hyperconcentrated and ultrapure.
The sidebar has a decent basic primer on essentials.
Thanks.
I read the the link in the side bar, but your post clears things up better.
My GF gets me this Lemon Juice with Lemon Oil added that is so good, and often thought something like it would be great in a ejuice but never took it further because Lipid Pneumonia. I'm going to try researching what they use.
No. Completely unnecessary, and will only confuse the non Chem major populace. Besides, if you buy from good vendors, it shouldn't be that much of a concern. This will just add more fuel to the fear mongering.
I meant for those of us who mix to learn from, hence why I posted it here, not ECR lol.
From a DIY standpoint, hell yeah, no more fuddling with figuring out whats in a clone.
From a consumer standpoint, it ought to be this way, regulation or not. A huge part of vaping is that it is touted to be safer than tobacco. If your flavors are riddles with dikatones and diacetyl and acetoin, then, I don't want it.
I get where you're coming from, but the problem arises when you add heat into the mix. A flavoring may not contain diacetyl until it's heated up and the molecular structure changes. That's why a lot of flavoring companies try to list the other ingredients and chemical precursors that may form diacetyl when heated.
I don't have any flavorings that contain diacetyl, but I can guarantee you at least some of them will form diacetyl when they heat up in my atty. That's the kind of thing that makes the regulatory part of eliquid so damn difficult: it would be nice to regulate just the bad stuff, but then you have to look at post-heating chemical changes, what the exposure rates of those are, etc. Shit's ridiculously complicated, at least from a chemistry perspective.
I get what you're saying, but until I can get some solid science on it, I'll just stay away from any source of a chemical that can break down into one of these carcinogens
The problem is that at least one of them (or a closely-related one we're yet to be aware of) is probably already in every single eliquid available. I totally understand wanting to be as safe as possible, but you're most likely not going to be able to avoid every single potentially harmful chemical out there, unless you quit vaping entirely.
At what cost to the consumer financially?
It should be available by request so those who want it can pay for it. No need to force everyone to pay for it.
I'm not really sure what you mean... if the information is available, the testing and records have already been completed. Mfrs have to print labels either way, so as someone who makes and sells juice, what's the difference?
You don't think bigger labels cost more? You don't think the cost of ink goes up? You don't think that takes more time? You don't think boxes cost more than the typical label?
Time and money, the consumer will pay for.
Oh golly, the fractional cents for a few extra nanograms of ink and mm of vinyl. How will my profit margins ever recover? It takes literally a negligible amount of extra material and zero extra man-hours to produce a label with this information on it. No one said anything about adding boxes too.
I'll cut you in on a little secret though. Juice is so cheap to produce, that in comparison to it's selling price, labelling expenditures are utterly irrelevant. I should know.