Deeper DIY, Part 4: Citric versus Malic acid

submitted over 10 years ago by abdada

Another small part of my Deeper DIY series not written by me, but involves the use of acid to bring out fruit flavors.

Rather than reinvent the wheel, I'll point you to an exceptional article written by Daniel Sortwell and Anne Woo on behalf of Bartek Ingredients.

They released the small publication in 1996 primarily for the candy and food flavor industry, but it applies to vaping as well.

To find the full publication, do a Google search on the following phrase: Improving the Flavor of Fruit Products with Acidulants

A top result will be a PDF on Bartek.ca

Discuss in comments if you have questions.

As usual, more to come.

Acids, effect on flavor

Citric Acid: bright, refreshing
Acetic Acid: pungent, vinegar
Fumaric Acid: clean, dry
Malic Acid: mellow, smooth
Tartaric Acid: brusque, dry

Comments

3 points

by BooksofMagicover 10 years agoMixologist

Here I'll help you with that link: Improving The Flavor of Fruit Products with Acidulants PDF

And I also have a question about Malic acid in ejuice - what's the upper limit percentage wise that should be used before it starts to ruin the taste?

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

I'll be doing a flavor matrix over a few months to try to discern that upper limit.

My guess? You want to be very, very, very low. 0.015% for food probably carries over quite well to vaping (although I think the upper limit in vaping will be a bit higher). Plus, malic acid is a "slow sour" so it doesn't appear as instantly as citric acid does, which is why some people sense a muting of flavor much later.

Thanks for the link -- I can't do that from my mobile device very easily.

1 points

by tet5uoover 10 years ago

I've been using Malic acid at about .15% to .25%, but I'll see if I can get away with even less.

Typically I use 5:1 Citric:Malic. I have been meaning to try more ratios and concentrations to see what happens.

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

Thanks for sharing that -- I use malic WAY lower, and not mostly as a sour but as a flavor enhancer (especially for fruits like apple and pear).

5:1 seems too close -- try 10:1!

1 points

by apoloniousover 10 years ago

Am I understanding correctly that you mix some volume of the citric and malic together first (like 5:1 or 10:1), then use that combination when measuring into the juice? I was just reading this /u/abdada comment and wondering if following the advice would entail using both malic and citric or just malic solo.

1 points

by BooksofMagicover 10 years agoMixologist

> ou want to be very, very, very low. 0.015% for food probably carries over quite well to vaping

Is that percentage taking into consideration that TPA Sour is only 20% Malic Acid?

Is this right: I am making 10ml of liquid, and I put in 1 ml of 20% solution, then I've really got 2% of the flavor in the final mix. So to get .02, I would add .1ml of 20% solution?

3 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

That's a good starting point, exactly.

This is also where mixing by weight helps a lot, actually. Trying to mix by volume at 0.1ml or even 0.05ml is nearly impossible.

I always suggest starting additives very low, because they tend to work at some value and then quickly they destroy or mute or modify flavor once past another level.

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

In the chart, they use malic acid (a slow acting sour) in tiny amounts, around 0.015% w/v! Citric acid is an order of magnitude weaker due to the instant on sourness, used as high as 0.25% w/v.

This is why malic appears to mute flavors: you are abusing it.

I have started playing with fumaric acid -- it has a much higher melting point than citric or malic, but combustion can create harsh chemical byproducts. It has been used in eliquid since 2011, tho.

4 points

by ShutUpTurkeyover 10 years ago

I think when a vendor sells malic acid labeled as "Sour", people will tend to overuse it thinking they need to add enough to make their juice taste more sour.

2 points

by TeslaDelMarover 10 years ago

Just realized I ruined one of my recipes this way - 3% of 20% Malic Acid in PG (TFA Sour) - thanks!

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

Yowza. That's like 0.6% lol. 4000% more than I use haha.

Can you cut it with 4 liters of nic and V

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

Yep -- lots of people do most flavors at a full percentage or half percentage value. I find flavors can be adjusted by 0.1%, and flavor enhancers by as little as 0.025%.

1 points

by DatabaseDiddlerover 10 years ago

Is tartaric acid vapable? Or no because its flash point is so low? In which case fumaric would then be the substitute, correct?

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

Fumaric was used in some eliquids years ago. I have some emails in to chemists regarding inhalation safety but no word back yet.

Tartaric acid does appear vape friendly. Nude Nic mentions it here: http://www.nudenicotine.com/additional-eliquid-ingredients-sweetners-sours-and-salts/

1 points

by captaincannibalover 10 years ago

Wow, that is really interesting. The recommended percentages for malic acid are usually 0.5% + in most recipes. I've always found that not only does it mute flavors, but sometimes it just straight up ruins a juice and makes it strangely harsh.

So have you tried ~0.015% malic acid or 0.25% citric acid in anything yet? Any interesting results? I'm really interested to see how well those percentages translate when you're using it in e-juice.

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

0.5% is insane for malic. I would love to know how they came up with that. Of course it depends on how strong the malic solution is.

I use my citric:malic blends all the time but at extremely small ratios. My 5:1 is less than 0.25%. My 15:1 is up to 0.5% but rarely.

I adjust the ratio based on the flavors. Citric works great with citrus and malic works great with pears and apples and grapes.

Sour notes are the toughest to make right. I use acids for flavor pop primarily -- lower pH should allow for more flavor to present.

1 points

by Demon_Cowover 10 years agoMixologist

I think you are mistaking TFA Sour for malic acid. It's 20% malic acid in pg.

1 points

by captaincannibalover 10 years ago

Ah, you are correct. For some reason I didn't realize that we were talking about undiluted malic acid here.

Undiluted malic acid at 0.5%... oh god no thank you.

1 points

by Nicobeakover 10 years ago

Thanks man, I often wonder about the optimal applications for each. This helps shed a little light on it.

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

I've got a testing matrix I hope to use to try to discern values, but from the research on acidulants out there, it's obvious that malic should be used less than 10% of the total of citric.

Using them together appears to help bring sour out, but again the ratios are 9:1 citric:malic or so.

I guarantee people's adversity to malic is due to using offensive amounts of it.

1 points

by modulemoduleover 10 years ago

Is all citric equal? I've never ordered any enhancers before and an unsure of a vendor.

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

Yes, just make sure the ingredients JUST say citric acid or pure citric acid.

There are plenty of products that contain other ingredients which are not wise for vaping.

1 points

by modulemoduleover 10 years ago

Thank you! After looking around, I'm curious about making my own citric acid solution. Would that be something you would recommend? It seems pretty straight forward.

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

looks solid to me!

1 points

by Orwelian84over 10 years agoPâtissier

I made my own solution using Citric Acid Crystals from from my local grocer. Not any different than making Koolaid really, except of course for the use of a scale.

1 points

by DownwardSpiralsover 10 years agoOne of "The Damned"

[Here](http://www.indigo.com/documents/File/Natural Acids of Fruits and Vegetables.pdf) is something I found while looking for dragon fruit info.

1 points

by abdadaover 10 years ago

Gah shows up blank on my phone. Will check from a PC tonight!

1 points

by DownwardSpiralsover 10 years agoOne of "The Damned"

The link may also be messed up... Let me know if it works please.

1 points

by clinodevover 10 years agoVanillinist

That's pretty cool! /u/returnity, for the docs?

1 points

by returnityover 10 years agoArmchair Flavorist

link works. added to the Deeper DIY library drive! =)

1 points

by lvanDragoover 10 years ago

I know this is an old topic. So based of what I read here, .12% of 20% malic for pop or .75% of Citric Acid (10%). In a ratio of 9:1 if used together. What amount of malic acid to use to make things sour then? Double it? I've used way too much previously and taste disappeared after a couple weeks, now I know why. I've made it sour before with a 2% of Malic acid (20%), but the flavor disappears.