OP: http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/2xkh2i/nude_nicotine_ridiculously_strong/
TL;DR: Results confirmed by /u/stevejo_nd:
>Titrated everything 5 times for accuracy, here are your results:
>Sample #1
>168mg Avg over 5 tests
>Sample #2
>189mg Avg over 5 tests
>Sample #3
>11mg Avg over 5 tests
Sample 1: Taken from half empty 500ml bottle
Sample 2: Taken from 97% full vigorously shaken 500ml bottle
Sample 3: Taken from "6mg/ml" test batch I made
Do with this information what you will, I will be asking for a refund and will not be using this nicotine. I have also sent samples to /u/NudeNicotine for them to titrate as well. I recommend anyone who feels their mixes are too harsh order their own test kits and test their nicotine. Feel free to ask any questions you may have.
Edit: Just got off a productive phone conversation with Jake, he will be changing his labeling PR for his 100% VG formulas as well as taking other steps to ensure QC. He will be testing the samples I sent him, and I will be testing the new bottle he sent me and we will regroup with the new information. In the meanwhile, i would suggest purchasing a nicotine test kit if you're having issues, and if you think your NN is too strong please reach out to Jake so he can make it right.
###Edit Friday March 6th, around midnight: I just titrated the new 500ml 100mg/ml bottle I was sent by Nude, and I averaged 106mg/ml. I will grant that my measurements may be slightly off, and this bottle is likely closer to 100mg/ml, but this is the sort of variation I would expect when measuring by the human eye. That is .2-.4ml of HCl variance, not 4ml of HCl variance. So, confirmation that my test materials are working as intended. Still no reply from Nude as to their titrations of my samples, which they said they would have prepared for us almost 30 hours ago.
Lots of hate in this thread. I'd be upset if Nude Nicotine didn't offer to replace it, but they did.
Accidents happen.
Technically they only replaced half the order. What's more troublesome is that they insisted there is no way my tests were accurate or that there could possibly be any problems with their process. That is more disconcerting than a messed up order.
> What's more troublesome is that they insisted there is no way my tests were accurate or that there could possibly be any problems with their process.
It is very possible that both your process, and their instructions, are at fault here. Saying to shake VG base may be at fault, as well as your just having shaken the bottle. Nobody has found any fault with the PG base as far as I've read.
They likely have very efficient mixing tools, so when the bottles are made they are homogenous. The VG and nicotine could be separating, and a simple shake may not prove enough to thoroughly mix the solution. Have you ever shaken honey, or pancake syrup? That is not a good way to mix viscous fluids.
They did the right thing in not immediately admitting fault based on internet supposition. They have a sample in hand now, and can test and verify results, with very accurate testing tools. They requested a sample, which means they are open to the option there is an issue here. Give them some time to figure things out. They may have to send out samples to a lab.
I'm sure if a recall is in order, they will do so. Though a statement to not use that nicotine until this is straightened out may have been a good idea.
It's not that disconcerting, it's just human nature to get defensive.
I don't know - I mean sure it can be human nature on a person to person basis to get defensive, but I have always taken the approach in business that when someone approaches me saying we fucked up on something, the first thing I do is try to find a way we could've fucked up so that if we did, we can approach the situation in a reconciliatory way.
No, I can see why there is hate. It's not because they're not offering to replace it, but because they refuse to believe they could have messed up. Imagine someone didn't check the levels and used it anyway. Maybe this time, NN added even more nicotine then they should have. That could lead to health issues/emergencies.
Just PM'ed ya. Really confirming this is an isolated issue and let's get ya a full refund AT THE VERY LEAST!
Putting a PR update on mixing procedures for everyone with 100% VG variations including a label change :)
Glad to hear it on the PR update. Haven't seen a PM from you yet tho. Did you get a chance to test the samples I sent you?
I just tested the new bottle you sent me. 15ml distilled water 1.5ml blue, 1ml nicotine, took ~6.5ml HCl to titrate the solution, approximately 105mg/ml. Considering I do not have a high resolution kit, that is close enough for me to be considered good. The new bottle you sent is clean.
I did not shake the bottle, test was taken from the top.
Shook the bottle vigorously for several minutes, tested again, 6.6ml of HCl required, 107mg/ml. I am probably inaccurately measuring the by a minute amount, however we are not talking about 4ml of HCl worth of difference, we are talking about at most .4ml. My testing kit is confirmed as accurate enough to satisfy a general range of measurement.
As I posted on the initial speculation thread as well I would like to repeat my own test results: My batch (same lot # as the one in question) of NN 100 mg/ml tested at 101ish so basically on par and within reason of potential mixing errors/testing errors.
From what I can tell, the higher nicotine amounts are limited to specific bottles as it is obviously not a lot/batch-wide issue.
I went from using Wizard Labs nicotine to NN and my flavor-testing group quickly noted a difference in quality (favoring NN).
Take from it what you will but if NN responds appropriately to this obvious error on their part, and puts in place methods that will prevent it from occurring again, I would keep them in the positive spectrum of nicotine suppliers.
EDIT for testing on new bottle: So I got a little bit too excited this morning and ran an initial test on the bottle right out of the freezer (which, by the way, I would now never recommend for storing 100% VG nicotine base as it was basically like dealing with molasses, lesson learned).
Test result unshaken immediately out of the freezer are as follows:
-
2ml of 100mg/ml 100%VG nicotine diluted with 15ml distilled water;
-
8 drops of Bromothymol Blue
-
Required 10.6mL of Sulfuric Acid .12N to acquire a yellow color.
-
10.6*9.735 = 103.19 mg/ml
Unfortunately, I realized at this point that there was no way in hell I would successfully get the VG/Nic to mix properly in its current molasses state so I set in on the counter for a few hours.
After allowing the bottle to warm up a bit to make it easier to work with, the test results are as follows:
Unshaken;
-
2ml of 100mg/ml 100% VG nicotine diluted with 15ml distilled water;
-
8 drops Bromothymol Blue
-
Required 10.5 ml of Sulfuric Acid .12N to acquire yellow color
-
10.5*9.735 = 102.22 mg/ml
Shaken for 5 minutes;
-
2ml of 100mg/ml 100% VG nicotine diluted with 15ml distilled water
-
8 drops Bromothymol Blue
-
Required 10.1 ml of Sulfuric Acid .12N to acquire yellow color
-
10.1*9.735 = 98.32 mg/ml
So, based on my results, shaking does not seem to have a significant enough impact on the mix to throw off the test results by the 50-80 mg/ml that have been noted by OP. Obviously, there is an issue with the filling process utilized by NN and while my bottles were both okay, it is clear that others are not.
It should also be noted that the second bottle has been sitting upright in my freezer since the day I received it (a little more than a month ago, the order was placed on January 22nd) which leaves plenty of time for it to sit and separate; therefore potentially disproving the idea that shaking is key towards getting the proper nicotine amount.
Honestly, with the standards I know Nude Nicotine has, who knows what the hell the other companies are doing. If Nude did it wrong, I would fret that the others are even worse. Just my two cents.
FWIW, I tested every batch I've bought from ECX (couple dozen) and they were all accurate to within 2mg/ml.
A couple of years ago when I was buying from ECX, they were wildly off, and often either under or overfilled. (the bottle would come either 3/4 full or completely full and covered in nic solution.) I also received several bottles from them that were supposed to be 50/50 but were either all VG or all PG instead.
That was before my debit card got hit with fraud by using their site.
If they've improved their consistency, I'm happy for them, but I still won't be buying from them again.
Great..... the company SWORE up and down it could not be done because of the quantity .... well guess what WRONG! Glad you picked up on this P2501 i wonder how many fucked up batches are out there ....
You would think NN would have been titrating his ass off since first thing Monday morning and posted a followup by now. Thanks P2501 and stevejo_nd.
NP. NN should have received my samples today too, so I'm curious to see what his results are.
If we rule out your test procedure and it is on the supplier's end, from your numbers it seems like NN has mixed its pure nicotine base with a VG that was already mixed at 100mg/mL.
Just a thought, maybe I'm wrong. Your results are close to the concentration of 190mg/mL a mistake like that would give.
But..... with their process this is literally impossible.
Must have been a problem with my mixing process, or faulty test materials! Or a hot layer of nicotine in the vg!
I AM READY are you?
It almost seems like people are looking to find something to be mad about. Is this not a one off thing?
Check out the OP I linked from Sunday. At least 6 people in that thread chimed that they were having the same problem.
And I'm not mad that there was a problem with my order, it happens. What irks me is that when I reached out to Nude about it, I was told "It is literally impossible" and "there must be a problem with your testing materials."
This is all the information I could glean from that thread. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B2fQQliVu9kNRrIUmwXw5_cu2QjsKpfUQ-bmAmzFr44/edit?usp=sharing
Mild speculation and thoughts too. Call me out if any of it seems misplaced.
I can understand a business not wanting explain more than they need to so as to not earn the ire/criticisms of people who had might not be knowledgeable enough to critique their process (as in how they fill the bottles, store the nicotine, the vg, pg, etc#). After all of this it seems like it had might be best to get into. Jake or whoever does seem to be a tad too deterministic in his language, I agree.
I'll see if I can piece together a list of what batches/ratios are effected.
But hey free nic.
I would demand a refund, too.
Yeah, i have no intention of using it. Even if I trust Steve's results more than my own, it's too much of an unknown quantity. Nude apparently sent me a 500ml to replace half my order, so I'll test that and if it's good I'll use it, but other than that I'm just going to go with another supplier for now.
RESULTS confirmed - this customers sample as shipped from our laboratory tests @ 100mg/mL within a 1% threshold - 99.87mg/mL after area calcs. GC/MS-verified @ this concentration - our end-of-all standards (while the info generated here was on sulf. acid titration)
http://www.nudenicotine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/20150305_134029.jpg
I am at a loss for words on your testing procedures sir :( New solution should be at your doorstep to move forward.
So, you're telling me that both samples I sent you tested for 99.87 mg/ml? I poured your samples side by side with the ones I sent to /u/stevejo_nd. How did both of us get such radically different results from yours?
Also, I have no idea how to interpret what I'm seeing. Can you explain?
edit: when you say
>this customers sample as shipped from our laboratory tests @ 100mg/mL
you mean, "We have tested the sample the customer sent us" or are you again talking about the original bottle you sent me? Because that is unclear.
Also:
>while the info generated here was on sulf. acid titration
I used HCl, /u/stevejo_nd used both HCl and sulf. acid, and titrated each sample 5 times.
EDIT: I just got your voicemail, Jake. Everyone, this is a GC/MS of a stored sample taken from that days batch, NOT MY SAMPLES. What Jake is saying here is he believes the samples LEFT THE LAB at 100mg/ml. The only way I can disprove this is by taking my 500ml bottle, running it through my heated magnetic stirrer to thoroughly mix it, then sampling it again.
###AGAIN, this is a GC/MS screenshot of NN's reserved samples of my batch kept at their lab, not the samples I sent them.
And finally. What happens if I take your new bottle you sent me and it tests at 100mg/ml? Will that prove that I titrated it properly?
And for what it's worth, I'm about ready to open up samples to anyone who wants to take one and try titrating it or sampling it themselves. I will pay for shipping.
What I don't understand is this - the half-full 500 ml bottle you have, the one you made a batch of harsh juice with - If the 250ml missing went into a batch of juice that is too high in nicotine, samples tested by you found to be too high in nicotine, samples sent to /u/stevejo_nd tested and found to be too high in nicotine, and yet another sample sent back to NN for testing yet to be completed. If this was a mixing error, shouldn't the remaining ~250 ml when thoroughly mixed have a concentration of ~40mg/ml? There were only so many grams of nicotine in the entire bottle. If the top half is way too strong AND the concentration was correct, the bottom half has to be equally weak.
I'm really interested to see what your sulfuric acid titrations have to say from the fresh bottle you should have awaiting you this evening :) LMK what you discover!!!!
I'll do the same with my titrations and GC/MS analysis of your sample you returned this evening :)
I'm surprised they still haven't updated us. Either they're talking to a lawyer who told them not to say anything until they can come up with a safe response, or they totally gave up on reassuring us and are just hoping this won't lose them much business.
Either way, I've waited long enough for a response. I'll be taking my business elsewhere.
NN keeps saying to SHAKE SHAKE SHAKE. Well, how is that supposed to do anything if you have a full (or mostly full) bottle of viscous liquid? It won't mix enough to make any appreciable difference!
Anybody who is buying concentrated nicotine in 100VG should be using one of these or should STOP.
http://imgur.com/a/GQVYG
Just throw the jar, bottle, or drum on it. It'll mix real good.
You can't shake that shit by hand.
YES YES YES!!!!
Did you advise all users to do this prior to selling the product?
Did the bottles have labels stating what procedures need to take place prior to usage?
It's better to go silent, investigate hard, stop with the "YES YES YES!!!" type stuff, and work the problem. Right now, you look like you're fighting a fire with more fire.
I have a 500ml 50/50 of 50mg/ml that has the same nic lot# and VG lot#.. I was going to ask if I should test it, picked it up and realized I only had around 100mls left. Meh
From what I can tell, the Nic lot # is for the 1000mg/ml concentrate that is added to the VG. If I had to guess, the issue is not with the concentrate nicotine, but with the dispensing/mixing process and the QC.
Sorry for the nooB question, but can you link me to a great kit for testing nicotine levels that I order from suppliers?
GC/MS results confirmed 100mg/mL on the average concentration from this bottle. AGAIN I can't stress enough on mixing your 100% VG variations to obilvion!
Hold the bottle parallel to the ground and twist with your wrist. Maximal surface area on the meniscus will allow for the required mix necessary on 100% VG solutions.
This should be the top comment in this thread.
Butbutbut it's more fun to crucify vendors.
I went to Nude first to try to get to the bottom of this, but they're so certain that there is no way their process can be at fault I fear for this happening again. If it requires me sampling every single ml of this 500ml bottle, I will, that it doesn't fucking matter what the GC/MS says, I got a bottle of nearly 200mg/ml nicotine, and that's a big fucking problem.
> GC/MS results confirmed 100mg/mL on the average concentration from this bottle. AGAIN I can't stress enough on mixing your 100% VG variations to obilvion!
And yet, results from my tests and /u/stevejo_nd's test show otherwise. Beyond that, my basic sense of taste and ability to consume nicotine at an appropriate level tell me otherwise. He's not saying anything he hasn't said before, nor has he done any further verification, just "you guys are wrong".
So is all the initialed paperwork and certification they sent with my stuff bullshit or what?
that is for their 1000mg/ml concentrate I believe. It'd be cost-prohibitive to run full-spectrum testing on every 100mL bottle.
Thanks for the email and update /u/project_twenty5oh1
What titration test did you use?
To confirm homogenization of your nicotine source, please take a sample from the bottom of your original nicotine jar you purchased and report back the results please.
Will do, it will have to wait till Friday night.
Here is the thing about the analysis results you posted. You first analysis shows an average of 168. The second shows an analysis average of 189. . That is a difference of 11%. Your third analysis indicates a differential of 50%. This indicates the sample is not homogenated. The specific gravity of the nicotine compared to glycerin will make the nicotine float. I understand you claim you shaked it. However, the difference of the analysis this large indicates that is not a thorough shake. Think of it this way as a degreed chemist, i was graded in quantitative analysis course but how close I got from the actual weight (percent). Each 0.0001 I was off from the conclusion result, it was subtracted one point from getting a A. A difference of 11% would be F. So the analytical report you provided is not considered acceptable with proving anything unfortunately. I am not trying to insult you but actually help you. That is why I always use a Genie Pulse Vortex Mixer when dealing with VG. There are other crude methods you can do and make a mixer without adding a magnetic spinner such as a record player. A general rule of thumb to help you is to keep shaking and timing with a larger surface area (like parallel shaking) until you have a consistent result.
Wow. I have been following both threads and I have to say I'm deeply disappointed in how NN/Jake has handled this. What I'm seeing here is very concerning, in particular Jake's defensive and in my opinion cocky attitude towards the public. I have always been an advocate and praised Nude Nicotine but purely based on customer service alone I will be choosing another vendor next time.
I agree. At this point i am finished purchasing from the company. This isnt the first time they handled a customer service issue in this manner. I have always defended them in the past both here, on Reddit, and with monetary support in the form of purchases which i didnt need. Even if the sample were to somehow test at 100mg/ml, which it most certainly shouldnt no matter which side is right, the customer service is deplorable. project_twenty5oh1 has shown a tremendous patience despite being basically called a liar. I understand they are going through a construction phase, at the moment, but if you say you are going to do something then fucking do it. Im sure i wont be missed anyways as i have enough nic to last me several years.
To those i have spoken poorly to in the past, in the name of this company, i sincerely apologize. My fanboy attitude got the better of me.
Another question. Where should i purchase i test kit from? Ive never used one but i shouldnt have any issue, i had a chemistry set back when they were actually dangerous. I see the kit from Wiz Labs is sold out. Who makes the most accurate test kit?
Also I've upvoted every post by you in this thread and your +15 hasn't changed, so I wouldn't trust my test materials, lol
Hehe, well thank you. She just looked at me like i was tarded when i asked her so i take that as a no. Reckon ill just order it from NN. Im mostly interested to know if i got free product, i.e. higher nic level than paid for. I also have a nearly year old batch of PG based nic that i would like to test to see if it is still usable, it was peppery when i ordered it from Vices.
Thanks again for your input and for the Doge tip you sent me many many months ago. That 420D got me started and since then i have been milking faucets everywhere.
Funny enough, you can buy one from Nude: http://www.nudenicotine.com/product/nude-nicotine-test-kit-high-resolution/
Truth is, all you need is distilled water, .1n HCl and 0.04% bromothymol blue - if you can find those things anywhere you can order them separately. Amazon has some but you either have to get a huge bottle of HCl or you have to pay huge shipping for it.
Ahh, thank you. If that is all i need i can have the wife pick it up as she works in a genetics lab which should have these items.
Whoa..crazy stuff. I have the exact same lot number and batch as you. 50ml of 100mg in VG, as I mentioned previously. I love NN and honestly won't bash them for this and I'll still order and refer friends to them, but I do hope they make things right in some form or fashion. If they respond here (as I'm sure he will), I'll get with them and confirm my batch as the same as yours to see what can be done. For now, I'll probably just mix at 1.5%. Thank you so much for doing this. I thought I was going crazy.
> I thought I was going crazy.
Me too. Good luck with your mixes.
Not defending NN persay, but as a new Vaper+DIY'er I have to say the OP is a little bit rude. I'm actually new to Reddit as well, but it seems Reddit has a pretty big influence on the vaping community.
Following this conversation since I did order a free sample of NN in 100% VG. I have to say your method of handling the situation is really low class. Making a title "Nude Nicotine is ridiculously strong follow up: Results confirmed", what do you expect to happen? You are trying to hurt Jake's business and the vaping community as a whole. You made a claim, sent samples, and then make an even bigger, more boisterous claim without waiting for Jake to publish his results.
VG is very thick. I bought a small magnetic mixer, and unless I heat high VG mixes it won't stir at all. Even at 50/50, the VG is massively thick and I imagine it is difficult to really distribute the nicotine in the solution evenly. Shaking alone might not be enough, you might even need to add heat. How long did you, scientifically, "vigorously" shake for? And this is coming from a 1 month long vaper. I think you should know better, and at least have some decency to wait for NN to defend itself before attacking their reputation.
And that said, maybe there IS an issue with your sample, who knows. Even so, the way you are seeking attention and causing a disturbance is despicable. Be patient and wait for the result instead of causing so much unnecessary damage. For the sake of your reputation, I hope your claims are true.
If you read through this thread and the last thread the situtation clarifies a bit. A bulk of his frustration comes not from the bad order but instead how it was handled. His experience doesn't seem to be an isolated incident.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B2fQQliVu9kNRrIUmwXw5_cu2QjsKpfUQ-bmAmzFr44/edit?usp=sharing
When i first reached out to NN, I was told that it is "literally impossible" that there was a problem with the bottle, and that "the problem must be with your mixing or test materials." I could have blown it out of the water on that response alone, but instead I took them at their word and came here to ask if anyone had a similar experience or guidance for me. That was the OP I posted on Sunday. After getting test results, I posted the results. Nowhere do you see me saying that people shouldn't buy from Nude, simply that they should test their nicotine and be careful with what they are doing.
>And that said, maybe there IS an issue with your sample, who knows. Even so, the way you are seeking attention and causing a disturbance is despicable.
I got the result. That's what this thread is about, independent confirmation of my findings. You forget that this could happen to someone less experienced than myself who are more likely to hurt themselves or others.
Have a look at this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B2fQQliVu9kNRrIUmwXw5_cu2QjsKpfUQ-bmAmzFr44/edit?usp=sharing - This is information gleaned by /u/Vaganusaurus from these two threads. It seems plenty of other people are having the same problem with this batch, and they should know that this is happening, to be careful, and that they're not crazy.
This is all prompted off NN's response to me. Their response should have been "OMG if that is happening we need to test it and get to the bottom of this, we're sending you a replacement order immediately", not "you're obviously wrong."
> Their response should have been "OMG if that is happening we need to test it and get to the bottom of this, we're sending you a replacement order immediately"
Isn't that what they did? Ask for a sample and send you a replacement? Without the "OMG".
See for yourself, this was Saturday afternoon/evening: http://imgur.com/lr40dN5
I made the first post Sunday after I woke up at 7:30am to drive to the grocery store a town over to buy distilled water to make sure I was using proper test materials. It wasn't until I posted the thread on Sunday that I even got a response, let alone an offer of replacement, and again, only half of the order has been replaced.
Anyone who says this is a hit job can eat shit. I switched to nude after having ZERO problems with Wizard Labs because I had heard such great things about them. Some people can't stand to see that their heroes are flawed, as the upvotes and downvotes in this thread are evidence. Whatever winners are running around here downvoting me... i just don't even. I could have been a real asshole about this, and if you look at that picture and tell me that I shouldn't have been offended you are crazy. I handled this as professionally as one can.
Edit: It should also be noted that I've lost ~1 Gallon of product materials, as well as two weekends of development (I can only develop on weekends), but I'm not asking for any of the money back for having to resend orders or replace wasted materials, I just want what I paid for and for this problem to be resolved.
Someone mentioned that instances with companies like this who deal in potentially toxic chemicals will bring gov't regulation into the community.
But as I see it, this is self-regulation at its finest. This is capitalism. This is the free market. Bad suppliers/vendors get less business, or they are forced to correct errors and make good with their customers so that they stay in business.
I trust the batch I've had for a few months now. I mix at 6mg/ml. If I vape some purchased 12mg I get a buzz. I hope NN can figure this out and fix the issue. Thanks for the update.
Which batch was tested? I have a 250ml of 100mg in VG from C012
Both bottles are A080 nic and C012 VG
My last order is from lot A080 @ 24mg/ml in pg. I have not opened it yet nor do I have nic tests although I will be able to tell and will report back when I do open it. Thanks for the warning.
Do you all still have the original documentation that came with the order, or is there somewhere else you were finding this? I ordered around the same time (haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary) but I believe my documentation is long gone.
I got a 100mg/mL bottle of this exact lot, and I swear, sometimes I think it is too little nic. I actually changed my mixes from 3 back to 6 because I didn't feel like I was getting enough. It may be in my head, though. I never thought about it not being right, but I looked at my bottle and the sticker says A080 C012, it's 100% VG. Guess I should get a nic tester.
Edit: I ordered on Jan 2nd, too, so it may have been filled on the 4th. I dunno. I'll reserve any judgement until I can test.
I got a 50mg/ml bottle of A080 and C012 and had the opposite problem. All my 6mg blends tasted and felt like 12mg, so I started making 3mg blends just to get my usual 6mg feel. I was convinced they had just sent me 100mg/ml by mistake, not the 50mg/ml bottle I ordered, and was kind of feeling like I'd gotten away with something until now :P
Ah that makes me feel better, I have A082 nic, still going to check it when my test kit shows. Thanks for being so "on it" with this man.
I currently have an unopened bottle of A080 nic and C012 VG. Ill mix a bottle right now and tell you if I notice anything out of the ordinary.
I have a 250ml bottle in VG from the same lot number but do not have a testing kit. I will open it, despite having just opened a bottle from Nov, and mix some juice tonight. I do not have a testing kit but i vape mostly 0mg and 3mg when i need to focus so i will most likely notice right away. Now that i think about it ill wait until i order a test kit.
I have followed your posts since i joined this sub and have come to respect you because of your honesty, were this almost anyone else i would most likely ignore it. Thanks to both of you for doing the footwork.
Looking forward to NN's input.
The +15 next to your name in my RES on this computer tells me I too respect your thoughts and opinions. Thanks for the vote of confidence man.
+83 next to yours, hehe. Both my nic and vg are from the same lot number, CO12 and A080. What should be done from here? Would adding more VG be the best option? the last thing i want or need is to rip my anus from cough farting. I love their product and their customer service, this batch came from a time when they were slammed from the reddit hug of death. Ever other batch i have gotten seemed to be correct according to my unripped anus.
If you test it and find out what the level actually is you can use a calculator like this one (my personal favorite) to figure out how much VG to add to get you back down the strength you were shooting for. I would personally just use it at the strength I knew it was and calculate my quantities accordingly. Make sure you wear gloves and work accordingly. Technically you should be wearing a respirator when working with nic at the strength OPs tests proved out to be.
Here's some more support. I'm in EU, pondering a purchase (shipping costs over the pond can easily throw one off). If this had happened to me i probably would've been too hesitant to contact them. Especially seeing that attitude "no, that can't happen". Offering to just test and/or replace it for you would've been a cool move, but this - less so. And like To0nMaN,
> were this almost anyone else i would most likely ignore it.
I'm eagerly awaiting their response. I've got some 50mg/ml that I bought about 2 weeks ago and I could swear my mixes are harsher than they should be. I've just been omitting the nic for about a week :/
I wish I had my paperwork or a test kit. Around what time did you order your nic?
If I understand correctly, the nic has only been tested by acid/base titration?
If so, you don't know for sure that nicotine is the only thing you are titrating in the solution. You're assuming it's pure but over concentrated, but maybe it's really 100mg/mL nicotine with some alkaline contaminant.
Will NudeNicotine assay the samples you sent them by GC-MS?
Sure, this is possible, however Steve tested with both an HCl test as well as a sulfur test, which is the same test nude sells on their website.
Yes but that test is only an acid/base titration. You're using an acid to measure how much base is in your solution, assuming all of it is nicotine.
Chlorhydric and sulfuric acid tests are the same, just using a different acid but they work the same. The only difference is you need half as much sulfuric acid as you'd need chlorhydric acid to neutralize the same amount of base, because sulfuric acid has two acid functions.
If the bottles, their equipment or whatever were contaminated by another base, the only way to know is GC/MS.
I just read NudeNicotine's reply on the other thread saying nicotine will separate from VG and migrate to the top - this might actually be what has happened.
To make sure, you could get samples from the top, the middle and the bottom of your bottle, and see if the titration yields different results.
To fix this, heat up the solution a bit and mix it really well, preferably in a glass recipient in which you have enough room to do so.
>Sample 1: Taken from half empty 500ml bottle
>Sample 2: Taken from 97% full vigorously shaken 500ml bottle
I had enough room in the 2nd bottle for shaking before I poured Steve's samples. Also the first bottle was half gone, as I used 120ml of it to mix a 2L 6mg batch that came out insanely harsh. There's no way I made it 120ml down, got a super harsh batch and still had a "hot layer" at the top.
I can't believe how people are defending this. This isn't a 'people make mistakes' situation, someone could get really sick using this crap.
I have 1L of 50mg 50/50 from the same batch. Lot #A080 PG#B013 VG#C012. When I got it I shook both bottles at room temp for 3mins using a kitchen timer since I prefer to break my nic into smaller glass bottles over a clean and dry stainless steel sink in my kitchen in case there is a spill. I broke them down into 4oz glass bottles and placed them in my chest freezer. I just mixed up an unflavored 50/50 mix at 6mg and this is stuff is good deal "harsher" then an identical mix using an older batch of VT nic. Really need a test kit right now.
Test kit ordered. Hopefully it is here by Monday.
Situations like this are what is going to bring more regulation to the ecig industry sooner than later. Self-regulation is obviously not working in all cases, and when it involves the sale of an extremely toxic substance you can bet that the regulators will come down extra hard.
As it just so happens, I have a 120mL bottle of 100mg VG-based nic from NN that is A080/C012. It was shaken well as soon as it arrived, and placed on a clean shelf in a closet.
I need to pick up some test materials on my way home from a client site today, but I shall have results for my titration this weekend.
I KNEW IT!! I have been having so much trouble with Nude. I make a 6 and it tastes like a 12, no matter how many times I went over my math. This is so vindicating. Thank you!
So where should I buy my nic now?
I don't know. I've got recommendations for Nicotine River and RTS. I had great experiences with Wizard Labs. I'll probably order samples from a handful of them and vape it at 6mg/ml and do a writeup on my findings.
RTS nicotine is complete shit, they are decent for flavorings and such, but I would definitely not recommend them for nic. I live about 15 min away from them and used to use them for a bunch of stuff, but they've shafted me on bottles on 3 occasions and also their nic was ultra oxidized brand new, also a few flavorings I got from them were super old. Just lookin out for ya. My nic was delivered today to them as well. I'm not gonna use any of it, so I just sent them a full 4oz bottle I had it broken down into. Not only was it super strong, but it was in shipment for 2 weeks and somehow became very oxidized (color was very dark, smelled quite pungent and was peppery). I'm guessing it was heated up and shaken around a lot, or there was an air leak. I am eager to see the results it tests at with them. I still believe NN is a great company and mistakes happen. I will continue to use them unless more problems arise in the future. My liter of new nic came in monday and it is the usual awesome quality NN. I have heard very good things about vaperstek though. I have ordered some INW flavorings from them and they were very prompt to ship and seem like a standup company.
www.vaperstek.org has great nicotine. I've been using them for the past few months. Not as many mix variations, as you can either get PG or VG as your carrier, but the quality is fantastic. You can order this direct from them, or Bull City Vapor. Drew just started carrying them at BCV.
Why has Jake not even commented on this? Even just to touch base and acknowledge the results to say they're looking into it? He posts a comment almost everyday, so I'm sure he's seen this new thread. Not to mention that hrs been tagged in it a couple of times.
I feel like this should be x-posted in r/tales from tech support
This is a bit fucking ridiculous. Nude nicotine is the cleanest fucking nicotine on the market. I have bought mass quantities from them and have never had a problem. But then again, I never expected an unmixed bottle of 100% VG nicotine to have the same strength consistently throughout. I mix my flavors prior to making a batch, why the fuck wouldn't you mix the nic? I always dilute 100 mg/ml nic out of the box. But guess what I do before I dilute? I mix the shut out of it.
Understand that shit happens, but reading this shit is like reading a classic TFTS story. NN has my business and that will continue. The community engagement, service, education and great fucking product from NN is outstanding and they deserve some fucking credit. Shitting all over them with an air of PSA will do more harm in the long run than a fubar batch would ever do.
Fuck.
/rant
Why should this be in /r/tfts? Why was there no warning to shake the nic before use, on the website or the bottle? Why is my half empty bottle showing 168mg/ml? Why didn't he take me seriously when I said there was a problem immediately and offer to help instead of dismissing me out of hand?
And finally, why are there half a dozen people reporting the same problem?
If you love nude nicotine so much, why don't you marry them?
It is official. All your comments will thus be read in Pee Wee Herman voice.
THIS IS WHY , THE DAY I DECIDE TO START DIY NUDE NICOTINE WAS OUT OF STOCK....I was like what the fuck...nude nicotine....is out of nicotine?
lol, this is not why, this is why: http://www.nudenicotine.com/new-lot-due-arrive-asap/ - just buy some nic from elsewhere like wizard labs
Whatever happened with this? Did anyone ever get replaced besides OP? I know NN still maintains that the lot they never sold was the only bad lot.
There's a third thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/2yccii/nude_nicotine_ridiculously_strong_lets_go_to_the/
and I got half my order replaced with good nic, the other half refunded about a week after I made that 3rd thread.
Also, it wasn't the batch that was bad, it was their mixing process they used on certain days of high volume.
This thread has been linked to from another place on reddit.
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[/r/electronic_cigarette] x-post from /r/diy_ejuice - the saga of Nude Nicotine sending me nicotine at nearly double the listed strength
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[/r/electronic_cigarette] x-post from /r/diy_ejuice - the saga of Nude Nicotine sending me nicotine at nearly double the listed strength
^Please ^follow ^the ^rules ^of ^reddit ^and ^avoid ^voting ^or ^commenting ^in ^linked ^threads. ^(Info ^| ^Contact)
I just made my first batch ever and noticed I'm getting light headed. Like a much stronger buzz than i should get compared to normal. Checked the batch and it's the same as referenced. What should I do? Will NN replace it? Can I compensate for the extra strength?
I would reach out to them. I would also order a nicotine test kit.
Is it really the customer's responsibility to go out of their way and purchase a test kit to prove to the company they messed up? I understand the whole need for research on the issue, but why should I spend more of my hard earned money on the company in question, when they are the ones that funked up?
Legitimate question by the way, not just trying to be a poor sport about it.
I have a question for op. If you found that your nicotine order was not correct then why didnt you just contact nude nicotine? Why did you post on reddit and wait for the nude nicotine account to respond? You know email still exists right? They also have a phone number. It looks like OP wants to use this as a political tactic not because he's concerned about safety. Not everyone who uses nn also uses reddit. If you were concerned about safety you would contact the company that has the contact info of every customer that might be at risk.
If you read the OP linked above, you would see that I reached out to them before anything else. I was told it was "impossible" what I was telling them.
This was Saturday a week ago: http://i.imgur.com/lr40dN5.jpg
My first post was the next day, after getting no further response from them.
Well heres a crazy thought maybe you contacted them late on saturday. Guess what companies have operational hours. And a lot of times companies dont work on Sundays. I dont know about nn in particular but i assume they have a day off. In addition, if they say 160 mls is impossible then is impossible. That means if you asked nn to make you a 150 mg/ml bottle they physically couldn't do it with the process they have established. Also it sounds like you added 120 mg/ml of a different company into your juice. "We tested 100 mg concentration in our laboratory on GC from an archived sample yet his sample returned was a varied concentration of 98 to 120 with inconsistencies via titration." Sounds to me like 98 is the concentration of nn and the 120 is something you added yourself.
I believe you are looking to start up controversy. Out of all the customers that could have gotten an off batch it would be someone who is a moderator in a number of vapeing and non vapeing related subreddits. And on top of that it would be off by such a degree that its absolutely absurd. You accuse nn of fucking up this bad and they go through some of the most extensive testing around. They even had your batch sample on file and there were no issues with it. And furthermore, if you cant tell 160 from 100 then you shouldn't be making juice at all. Once you finally tested it and realized it was off its as simple as getting a replacement bottle.
What do you usually do when you get a wrong order at a restaurant? Do you just post on reddit? Or do you talk to the people operating the restaurant?
>Well heres a crazy thought maybe you contacted them late on saturday. Guess what companies have operational hours.
But, they replied. If they hadn't replied, I would have waited for a reply. Their reply left me no opportunity for a refund/return.
>In addition, if they say 160 mls is impossible then is impossible. That means if you asked nn to make you a 150 mg/ml bottle they physically couldn't do it with the process they have established. Also it sounds like you added 120 mg/ml of a different company into your juice.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? I don't even know where to buy nicotine over 100mg/ml. I'm pretty sure you need special licensing for that. I'm also not the only person having this problem from the dates that my bottle was shipped, as well as two other dates Nude was having higher than average volume of orders, as confirmed by them in the next thread.
>They even had your batch sample on file and there were no issues with it. And furthermore, if you cant tell 160 from 100 then you shouldn't be making juice at all. Once you finally tested it and realized it was off its as simple as getting a replacement bottle.
My "batch sample" was a base batch before they mixed my bottle, as confirmed by NN. My 1L came out a 4L batch, so they never tested MY bottle, they tested the root batch everything was coming out of.
>Once you finally tested it and realized it was off its as simple as getting a replacement bottle.
Are you not paying attention? I reached out to them after I tested it, BECAUSE i realized something was wrong with it, and their response was a null answer. It was only after I came to reddit to ask if anyone else had any experience with this that they offered to send a replacement bottle, and they only replaced half my order.
>What do you usually do when you get a wrong order at a restaurant? Do you just post on reddit? Or do you talk to the people operating the restaurant?
If I order a burger medium rare, and the burger arrives well done, and I wasn't an expert in burgers, and the owner of the restaurant tells me "it's impossible, our process does not allow for well done burgers" I would definitely ask an online community of hobbyist burger makers whether it was or was not impossible, and how to identify whether my burger is well done or not. Sounds to me like you might have a stick up your ass, or a hard on for nude nicotine.
> Out of all the customers that could have gotten an off batch it would be someone who is a moderator in a number of vapeing and non vapeing related subreddits.
Also, this made me laugh. I am not known for my moderation of tiny ass vaping subreddits, I'm known for my participation on /r/electronic_cigarette. Though I'm sure you can say /r/vapers_gonewild is super serious and important to vaping.
Wait let me get this correct.... You are upset because they sent you super strong Nicotine? And includes a test kit? I understand It can be dangerous if you dont know how much you are mixing and overdose. But cant you just use less nicotine now? So really you got "hooked up" so to say? Every company has hicups every now and then but this seems like I would be excited to get 1/2 X more nicotine Per ML. Also can you jusr dilute it in VG until it equals out 100MG and you just technically got more for your money?
Sorry ive been following this for awhile and am extremely confused.
I just wanted what I ordered. Mixing with higher than 100mg/ml is not something I was prepared for, nor is it recommended for smaller batches such as when developing flavors.
It did not include a test kit, I purchased that separately.
Edit: lol controversial comment. "Fuck you for wanting what you ordered"
They dont include a test kit when you purchase nicotine unless you specifically order it. This post was to alert other people, very few of us own a test kit and many of us make juice for other people. Someone that drips, like me, cant vape 12mg or anything over 6mg. Nicotine is the most important component to have correct.
Im actually hoping mine contains more nic than i purchased but i only make juice for me, family and some friends. Now imagine you own a business and trust that the nicotine provider is accurate. You mix liquids to sell to others and they get nic sick from it. See the problem now? Monetary loss as well as trust, either way you run the risk of losing money and future business.
Hope this helps to clarify.
Oh yeah I completely understand that With a business standpoint. I think all ejuice vendors should always test their nic regardless though. I have really considered ordering from NN, I was under the impression they sent out free test kits with large orders. I was like damn I would be excited to recieve more nic than I initially thought. I would just re dilute it with VG or just use less and basicaly get a Buy 1 Get 1 free.
I still dont feel this is a reason to mark off NN and I will still order from them. Every company makes mistakes some being bigger than others. Like potentially killing somone with Nicotine. If anything this is a HUGE wakeup call for all you vendors or Diy of that matter who purchases their own Nic.... Always test that stuff. Im ordering a few test kits as we speak from NudeNic.
I also had a simular situation to this but I believe it was VG seperating from my NIC. I ordered a 1Liter 100Mg 100%VG bottle. It says plain as day Shake Well before Every Use. So I did that and other times I would just move it aroubd a little and not really shake it that much.. but I just finished that entire batch and the last 50ML that was at the bottom of the bottle. I used ot to make a few personal glasses for myself, let it sit and GREZ I can barely take a hit off that juice its not that its bad its just an extremelybad headrush like the first day I started smoking a cigarette all over again. I am just wondering if it had hot spots in it where it sat for so long who knows.
This is exactly what i am taking away from all of this, always test. I absolutely love their product and this would in no way prevent me from ordering in the future. At no point in my DIY journey had i considered testing my nic but i will from here on out. The bottle of nic i am using right now is 6 months old and stored properly, this has got me curious to see if there was any degradation in the product with my current storage methods which are glass bottles that i put in vacuum sealed bags and then placed in the bottom of the deep freezer.
I have always loved chemistry and this just gives me a reason to buy more stuff.
A second party (professional) tested several samples of his nicotine and determined the nic content varied even more. We still don't know enough to confirm whether there is more wrong with the A080 batch than it just having too much nicotine.
If you sell juice to others your product is a reflection on you - irregardless of a bad ingredient. A hit to his reputation over a mysterious batch of 'bad' nic isn't worth the savings.
