So I am considering hopping into real DIY because there are some flavors I just can't get without PG in them. I've contacted about 2 dozen flavor mixers to ask for VG versions but their response is always the same: "there is no demand for engineering it."
So off I go to engineer my own enhancements and flavors, from scratch, instead of buying something that other flavor engineers have mixed up with their decades of knowledge.
I've been spending time on some flavorist forums (not vaping related) and have read a ton of books and magazines and research papers. Read up on toxicity (man there is a lot of toxic stuff out there), read up on long term studies on certain flavor molecules, etc.
I have put together a list of the flavor molecules I am more interested in. If you're an amateur flavorist, I'd love your take on what I'm missing or what I should avoid.
Here's the list and description:
Component | CAS | Notes | Usage | Type | Formula :-------------------:|:-----------:|:-------------:|:---------------:|:----------:|:-------------: Corylone | 765-70-8 | Maple, Bready, Caramelly | up to 10%, or more (pie crust) | Natural | C6H8O2 Trimethyl Pyrazine | 14667-55-1 | Nutty | up to 10% | Natural | C7H10N2 Delta-Decalactone | 705-86-2 | Creamy, Coconutty | less than 1% (may skip it) | Natural | C10H18O2 Hexanoic acid | 142-62-1 | Sour cream/cheese | up to 10% | Natural | CH3(CH2)4COOH Gamma-Octalactone | 104-50-7 | Toasted | up to 10%, or more (coconut) | Natural | C8H14O2 2-Acetyl-Pyrazine | 22047-25-2 | Roasted, Bready, Nutty | 5% | Synthetic | C6H6N2O Isobutyl-Phenylacetate | 102-13-6 | Honey, Spicy, Sweet | up to 10% | Synthetic | C6H5CH2CO2CH2CH(CH3)2 Para-Anisaldehyde | 123-11-5 | Spicy, Vanilla, Marshmallow | up to 10% | Natural | CH3OC6H4CHO Veratraldehyde | 120-14-9 | Creamy, Vanilla | up to 10%, or more (honey) | Synthetic | (CH3O)2C6H3CHO Butanoic acid (Butyric acid) | 107-92-6 | Sour Cream, Cheesy | up to 10% | Natural | CH3CH2CH2COOH Gamma Nonalactone | 104-61-0 | Creamy, Milky, Waxy | up to 10% | Natural | C9H16O2 Delta-Dodecalactone | 713-95-1 | Butterscotchy | up to 10% | Natural | C12H22O2
These flavor molecules are incredibly common in the flavors you're vaping already. I will likely play with just the ones that are used in the 1%-10% range that you're buying premixed with PG -- but I want to mix into VG or Triacetin. A lot of flavor molecules are mixed at much much lower amounts (some are less than 0.002 parts per billion, even!).
The idea isn't to sell anything -- there is too much risk and liability in mixing flavors. My thought is to come up with some flavors (PG-free in this case), release them open source, and maybe get some demand for TFA or others to actually make a small batch and offer it to others.
Plus, by doing true DIY, I can actually learn more about flavor components and see WHY some of the more debated molecules are added.
Edit: I added the usage percentages, which mean nothing other than "it appears that some flavor concentrates use this flavor molecule in up to this amount.
There are tons of flavor molecules that I will avoid for now because the ratio is far too low and if you mix too high it can be dangerous. Knowing that some flavor molecules can be used up to 10% (or even more!) means that I have a little leeway with mixing it.
Since I plan on only buying less than 10 ounces of each, it should still give me a LOT of basic flavor foundations to start with. My hope is to mix everything at 10% into VG and then use that base to find ratios that work. If I take 1 ounce of molecule and add 9 ounces of VG I should have a great starting point where 1 drop of mixed base can be added to 9 drops of VG and tasted.
Edit 2: I added a 5th column to mention if the flavor molecule is naturally or synthetically derived. If there is a choice, I picked the natural version. And a 6th column showing the chemical formula so you can actually see which flavor molecules are "simple" and which are "complex".
i really appreciate what you're trying to do, but referring to this as "real" or "true" diy just seems self aggrandizing and a kind of put down to the rest of us who do "fake" or "false" diy. :\
I considered how to title it -- "deeper DIY" or "more complicated" DIY.
The problem with all hobbyist trades is that there is always someone willing to do more work, for sure. I'm sure there's a guy out there who owns centrifuges and mass spectrography devices and considers that realer, haha.
I think all DIY is DIY, but one has to be aware that in every step of any process, one is still a consumer of something!
Heck, most of our favorite eliquids, if not all, are made from premixed flavor compounds already. Is there any juice vendor who goes down to the base molecules?
the things you are pointing out are incredibly obvious. creating your own flavor compounds is DIY, for sure. but that doesn't make it any more "real" than making juice from someone else's compounds. i think "deeper diy" is fitting. or, hey, how about "flavor compound diy?" whoa, precision.
> Is there any juice vendor who goes down to the base molecules?
nude does their own NETs (i believe), i'm not sure if they manufacture the other flavor compounds they use in their juice or not, but i would not at all be surprised.
True -- Nude does appear to be doing their own compounding. I've been meaning to order from them to see how they taste and balance.
I think it's going to have to be the next stage for premium handcrafted eliquids. Now that people are seeing $3 worth of off-the-shelf flavors can go into a $20 bottle of juice, they're creating some market disturbances.
If the refinement of top shelf juice gets to this level of handcrafting, it'll be tougher to clone, although it will also be "easier" to release ingredients should the regulators force that.
And I do agree that "real" isn't a good term -- I just posted it after giving it 10 minutes of thought and didn't come up with "deeper" until hours later.
Welp I found a new thread to save. I've been watching your posts/comments since you commented on one of my first posts. Your mentality seems almost impossible to pull off to a normal person. Saying you don't enjoy, enjoying yourself too much. Granted you believe it all comes at a cost which is understandable, but in many cases way easier said than done. That being said, you seem well financed, educated, and very motivated. I appreciate what you're doing here and if there's anything I find I'll be sure to let you know, but I get the feeling the learning here will be on my end. Bump.
Everything I do is always with as much transparency and disclosure as possible. In every business I run, I even disclose my profit margin on invoices (as much as possible) -- I am not afraid to show what I am worth to those who hire me, and I like that it completely eradicates any chance of them trying to negotiate my price downward.
For vaping, I want full disclosure for one purpose: to drive innovation and competition for better products. Not just for me, but for others.
For my online ecommerce work, I offer even more than just dislosures: I even give away my trade secrets openly, and all my creative content I sell is granted with unlimited license for others to resell and repurpose without attribution or compensation to me. Again, more competition leads to a better market, and in the end I profit in some way (maybe financial, maybe through a competitor making a better product that I might buy myself).
I want my life to be "more difficult" because I like the reward of hard work, and I hate the reward of pressing a button and getting an instant high. Life is too short for shortcuts and avoiding a little struggle to earn a feeling of accomplishment.
As for the financing, I am not a wealthy dude. I just have a secret: no car, no mortgage, no TV or cable, no fancy toys or technologies, no college debt, no major addictions (gave up drinking and foodie-ism because they weren't cost effective). So the little I do earn is much more than I would ever need for the basics, leaving me with enough to play with in my hobbies.
Also, if you see something I post that you think is invalid, untruthful or just plain wrong, please call me out on it. I am not a chemistry major, I have no engineering education, and I definitely am testing the waters with my own body and not yours, but I would rather be sharing good evidence rather than faulty or false information.
Look. I really, genuinely find what you're doing fascinating, and I do encourage it, but the scientist in training in me is screaming about how you don't (at least that I'm aware of) have a degree, or any sort of scientific training in even basic chemistry. I could be wrong, but I'm just cautioning you to be careful of your research and where it's coming from. Do you have access to things like ebsco? Medline? Etc? Also I'm not sure a lot of the reputable companies will sell to individuals. Again, I could be wrong. Just saying.
I appreciate the scientist in you 100%. I also have a great amount of respect for plenty of scientists as well as a good working relationship with quite a few, including some well known flavorists in the trade.
I've worked with chemistry labs for a number of years in other projects (not vape related) and in the past year have had a great working relationship with 2 local labs (vape-related in this case). Over and over I've been told that my knowledge of chemistry is amazing and that my consistent view on safety (both lab and general) is stricter than most.
I do have access to EBSCO and PubMed (limited in the latter). Reputable companies will not sell to individuals, but I own corporations with proper documentation for acquiring the less toxic ingredients in small amounts (we're talking 50-100 grams typically of each).
I'll be mixing in an actual certified lab with proper safety equipment and monitoring by a chemist I've done business with for years. One of the trade industries I am in deals with chemicals far more toxic than anything we vape and I've theorized some compounds that I mixed myself -- also under monitoring and guidance. Sadly those theories were failures, but I gave it a try.
The #1 biggest issue I have in chemistry today is specifically the restrictions that exist thanks to the big players. Yes, an amateur shouldn't be able to walk into Sigma Aldrich and purchase nitroglycerin and walk out, but 2-acetylpyrazine sold by 150 food flavorists in the country is off limits?
Please.
I recently told 2 chemists to take their degrees and shove them in their rectums because they thought it was wrong for an amateur to be playing with SALINE compounds (not vape related, industrial solvent related).
I do appreciate your concern and will be taking proper measures for safety and disposal. And the compounds I produce will be double-checked before I try any flavor mixing.
Is there any particular reason you are shooting for VG based concentrates?
I am not a fan of PG for a wide variety of reasons and I have friends and people I love who are VERY allergic to PG.
I also can taste ethyl alcohol if it's in a flavor concentrate and it's a bad taste to me.
So my plan is to see if the favorite flavors might be possible without PG or EA.
I think these are not in PG..
http://medicineflower.com/flavorextracts.html
Yep, and I own all of them but 3!
They're fantastic flavors, and I love playing with them, but just flavors alone aren't enough to create something more akin to the higher end handcrafted e-liquids.
Falling into the rabbit hole of mixing off-the-shelf flavors is deep enough, but once you get into actual flavor molecule engineering, it's an amazing amount of information.
The stuff I've learned in just the past 4 months stuns me when I approach regular food nowadays.
Knowing that some of the flavor molecules in our favorite eliquid flavors are the same molecules that big tobacco added to cigarettes to increase brain reward is an eye-opener, too.
I have a few TFA flavors that contain ethyl alcohol, I found them all to be good if not great and can't taste the alcohol at all. I usually use them in less than 4% concentrations though, but still, I expected to taste alcohol and at least for me that wasn't the case!
The only TFA flavor that doesn't taste like alcohol to me is their cola. It's pretty good!
I taste alcohol in everything, though. It throws off flavors something fierce for me.
Taste is subjective. Also, I don't drink actual alcoholic beverages anymore (not because they caused me trouble, just a waste of money), so I think I am hypersensitive to alcohols in flavorings.
Plus, I want to reduce some of the addictive chemicals that are added to off-the-shelf flavors, including TFA and all the others. I stopped smoking cigarettes to reduce addictive behaviors, and some of the most popular flavor chemicals in eliquids are the same molecules Big Tobacco added to cigarettes.
Hence why I want to play around and see for myself.
Can you add in Triacetin?
I already have Triacetin by itself and have been playing with it minimally -- but it's on my to-do list for sure!
would you happen to know the proportion in which triacetin is used in TFA Smooth? I know it's the primary component, but have been unable to find estimates of concentration.
While you are way more into flavours than I am, I can appreciate the excitement and bewilderment you are feeling right now. That moment of inspiration seems to be a reoccurring emotion in my life across a wide range of subject matters.
May I ask how old you are?
Just turned 41, but I've been rooted in food and flavor research for about 5 years now (strictly from a conspiracy perspective, of all things, lol).
Vaping definitely has caught my eye as a hobbyist, but I don't trust hubbies. Too often, the passions we think we love are merely just paths to getting our dollars out of our wallets.
This is one of the few hobbies where I can really drill down the details in every way. Make my own coils (kanthal or nickel or titanium), build my own mod (mechanical or regulated, various chips, etc), even mix my own eliquids from bare flavor molecules if I want.
I must know, what is the conspiracy angle?
I love this hobby for the same exact reason you do.
Here's a great link you can use to search molecule names and CAS numbers -- sometimes one or the other doesn't show up.