Sooo ive been hearing a lot about Cosmic Fog milk &honey and went to buy a bottle today because my boss wanted me to try and clone it. No honey. barely any. some custard. graham cracker, peanut butter, banana cream. 3 hits and i had it. to me it literally tastes like grandmaster without the caramel, honey substituted. same as the cuttwood "boss reserve" except the cuttwood version seems to be an almost exact copy of grandmaster.
I cloned grandmaster a long time ago and all three of these are very similar, the boss reserve being a blatant copy. I know the juice industry is totally blown out but it kinda pisses me off when big companies start cloning each other. Like come on now. you people have staff chemists and shit at least try and make something original. we clone flavors because we cant afford to carry big premium brands at a mom and pop shop not to mention have no interest in charging 24$ per bottle. these guys have insane labs and budgets and people with PHDs on staff cloning each other for no reason. I was just wondering if anyone else noticed this or any other examples of big companies cloning flavors.
I realize this happens all the time and is an almost unavoidable part of the industry, I guess im just disappointed in Cuttwood because im a fan. but now that i think about it unicorn milk is pretty much a bite off of Mothers milk anyway. but it is much better.
I guess the juice industry and the music industry are very similar. Robert Johnson makes a few blues recording in the 30s and eric clapton stumbles upon them 40 years later and covers them to international fame and fortune. but at least when you read the credits in his album covers it lists his name. shit his estate probably gets a cut of sales. End rant.
So you're telling me Cuttwood has a chemist on staff and still managed to produce a juice using a coloring agent containing titanium dioxide?
yes. most big companies have chemists even some smaller ones. cuttwood does for sure. you think they would buy ad space on an indy car before hiring a chemist? in an interview they said the chemists told them it was safe. people just freaked out because of the word titanium. I hate to be that guy but we have absolutely no evidence as to whether food colorings are bad. i mean personally i dont vape or produce anything that uses them but we have nothing to go on one way or another. just based on a feeling i dont use it or see the need. its the same coloring agent used in pink cake icing.
I'm just saying that if I had a chemist on staff I'd make sure it was the type of chemist that would say no to adding something proven to be carcinogenic to animals and classified as possibly carcinogenic to humans in my product, especially for purely cosmetic purposes. Also, yes, I know people that own juice companies that would buy ad space before hiring a chemist without a second thought.
>these guys have insane labs and budgets and people with PHDs on staff cloning each other for no reason.
Me thinks you overestimate them. They have high volume mixing/filling equipment, but they aren't employing phd chemists running around in a lab creating flavors. Why would they? They do what everyone here does. Find a recipe, and then scale it out. The flavoring companies have staff chemists, but not many eliquid companies. They may have consultants available, and will tell you about how state of the art they are, but it is smoke and mirrors. Lest people realize how stupidly simple it is, once you come across a good recipe.
Their investments are in production, not in research.
no, its the truth. i work in the industry which is why it makes me so mad. and the top five do have chemists on staff i know this for a fact. so do people like ben johnsons. its all in preparation for the FDA
> the top five do have chemists on staff i know this for a fact. so do people like ben johnsons. its all in preparation for the FDA
What does a chemist have to do with that? That is all facilities stuff, mass production. Unless they are creating their own line of flavor extracts, or creating artificial flavors, I don't see the need for a chemist, let alone a research chemist (phd). Like you said, I'm sure the really big ones may have one on staff, but not the bulk of them.
They'll have them on retainer, like a lawyer, but what would the need be for having them on a staff position? There are massive commercial labs for testing purposes, it is much cheaper to use those. Chemists don't run factories, warehouses, sales or marketing. Engineers design labs for certification. You use low level paid labor for factory operations.
Their multi-million dollar "labs" are just clean factory floors, with lots of expensive equipment for pumping out bottles.
five pawns has a positive pressure room just to fill up bottles. ben johnsons and many others have a chemist on staff for sure and its like a keeping up with the jones' thing. they just want to look as legit as possible for the FDA. and the chemists work on recipes and interactions of flavor concentrates obviously
What? Try and clone m&h then. Good luck.
Nothing's original.
didnt even want to because we sell my grandmaster clone and its the same damn thing. Im doing a honey custard/cupcake/swirl thing instead. Should ACTUALLY taste like milk and honey. will post recipe if anyone wants it
I would actually LOVE to see and try your recipe. m&h has been notorious around here for ages(in vape years, of course).
the numbers on the right are for a 500ml batch, left is for 30ml. i just copy/pasted from my master list. all my mixes are VG / VG only nic added so the result is 70vg/30pg
TFA graham(clear) 1 / 17, TFA caramel (OG) 1 / 17, FW cap. crunch .9 / 15, TFA Peanut Butter 1 / 17, TFA Vanilla swirl .6 / 10, TFA custard 1.2 / 20, TFA nana cream 3 / 50, TFA cotton candy .3 / 5
M&H would be the same thing except FW honey instead of TFA caramel
BOOM. not so elusive after all eh ?
I have a bottle of milk and honey from cosmic right now. It tastes nothing like milk or honey. Kinda bummed.
SAME. i just went to a different store with my boss and he paid full retail for a bottle without trying it because hey it has to taste like milk and honey right ? NO. Its fucking grandmaster / boss reserve/ the Gmaster clone i already made so pissed man. im about to make a real milk and honey juice that will actually taste like milk and honey.
Yes, and those big labs cost money. Sounds like a serious overestimation though.
What the hell does "blown out" mean?
i had a meeting with ben Johnsons reps last week. flew in from LA. They have money. Lots of it. they have labs. big ones. and they arent even that big of a company man. five pawns has a multi million dollar production facility. Suicide bunny is worth 2-4 million. I personally know the owner of a chain of vapor stores who goes through 600 bottles of mothers milk per month.. IN 6MG ONLY. four times that for all nic levels combined. dont forget they also make 8 other flavors that sell nearly as well. imagine buying flavor by the pallet and bringing your cost down to 30-40 CENTS per bottle then wholesaling nation wide for 12$ per until a store spends 5k a month. They have the money, the labs, and the PHDs. trust that. When the FDA comes down House juice will cease to exist and all that will be left is the premium brands. thats all youll be able to.buy in stores. exact quote "We are ready for the FDA , very much looking forward to it" theyre only competition after regulation will be other premium brands. thats all that will be left when the dust settles. and Blown out means the market is beyond over saturated. Like DJ Pauly D's hair.
Just sounds like you should be debating capitalism in an economics forum. Recipes are always being cloned. Think of all the clones of Coca Cola, and all of those restaurants trying to make the perfect burger. Everyone has different tastes, but there is a sweet spot that works for a large portion of the population. When someone finds something that works, why try to re-invent the wheel? If you are making your juice taste like the best selling juice, you are doing a damn good job.
I keep hearing all these Illuminati/conspiracy theory claims about how all the bigger companies are all trying to push the FDA towards regulation that benefits them...it's really sad to hear that the little guys are going to get pushed out....but honestly think of craft brewing. Little guys do indeed make it.
By the time I was done with my bottle of Cosmic Fog's Milk & Honey it started to taste like RY4. Wouldn't buy it again.
So you're mad at juice companies for ripping eachother off, but your shop sells your grandmaster clone? Sounds kinda hypocritical to me.
No. Im mad that they have staff chemists, huge budgets, labs, lawyers, insurance, maybe even make their own flavor concentrate (maybe) and STILL come up with the same flavor as another Large company instead of making something somewhat original. If i had a huge fucking lab and 50 people on my payroll i would not make anything even remotely similar to what my competitors are making. its just stupid. My Gmaster clone is sold as house juice, not on my Liquid line, thats why i posted the recipe
Most juice out there is a joke, I have several clones in my rotation that are just single or double flavours of common vendors. I've never heard a juice company mention having chemists on staff personally, but if they did I would suspect that their main role is quality testing of bases and flavours, maybe mixing, but I doubt its them coming up with recipes.
While I agree with you that a lot of the juice out there should be better, how can you in the same post complain about a juice, call it a ripoff, and then post a recipe of it which your shop sells as their own house juice? Is your shop taking credit for the recipe or is it sold as 'five pawns grandmaster clone'? Sorry I seemingly can't get over that - there's nothing holding you back from making something original, it's pretty easy. Be that change you wanna see in the industry.
All the fancy bullshit like an office and lawyers aside, there's nothing five pawns or cuttwood can do that guys like you and me can't, and I think people are finally catching on. I think (hope) by 2016 double priced 'premium juice' will be a thing of the past.
its not sold as "Grandmaster Clone" I labeled it Banana nut bread because a customer wanted a banana nut bread juice. I actually just made the recipe myself and then realized later it tasted exactly like grandmaster. we bought a bottle and couldnt tell a difference other than steep time. I had never even vaped five pawns before i made the recipe just recently started trying them and other "premium" brands at other shops in the past few weeks. thanks for the advice tho. I too hope that high priced juice becomes a thing of the past but with the new regulations favoring those brands i remain cautiously optimistic
I couldn't read that wall of text
Sooo ive been hearing a lot about Cosmic Fog milk &honey and went to buy a bottle today because my boss wanted me to try and clone it.
No honey. barely any. some custard. graham cracker, peanut butter, banana cream. 3 hits and i had it. to me it literally tastes like grandmaster without the caramel, honey substituted. same as the cuttwood "boss reserve" except the cuttwood version seems to be an almost exact copy of grandmaster. I cloned grandmaster a long time ago and all three of these are very similar, the boss reserve being a blatant copy.
I know the juice industry is totally blown out but it kinda pisses me off when big companies start cloning each other. Like come on now. you people have staff chemists and shit at least try and make something original. we clone flavors because we cant afford to carry big premium brands at a mom and pop shop not to mention have no interest in charging 24$ per bottle. these guys have insane labs and budgets and people with PHDs on staff cloning each other for no reason.
I was just wondering if anyone else noticed this or any other examples of big companies cloning flavors. I realize this happens all the time and is an almost unavoidable part of the industry, I guess im just disappointed in Cuttwood because im a fan. but now that i think about it unicorn milk is pretty much a bite off of Mothers milk anyway. but it is much better.
I guess the juice industry and the music industry are very similar. Robert Johnson makes a few blues recording in the 30s and eric clapton stumbles upon them 40 years later and covers them to international fame and fortune. but at least when you read the credits in his album covers it lists his name. shit his estate probably gets a cut of sales. End rant.