I don't want to hear any pseudo science B.S. about it making your uncle angry, or giving your aunt head aches.
Ill be surprised if some one has tried it before I will. That said, order is placed and ill be the guinea pig. If you have information that I was unable to find that suggests that this is really really bad, then please share it, or if you have experience doing this please share as well..... otherwise...
MSG is a very common food additive. If you eat locally in China, it is loaded with it. No MSG Chinese food is an american thing.
FDA GRAS. MSDS says it may cause respitory irritation. As do the MSDS sheets for Malic acid, Citric acid, several of the sugar substitutes, and flavors from TFA. I have seen several times the use of saline solutions as an additive, and the biggest negatve I saw there was coil gunking.
I will be creating solutions the same way as you would menthol crystals. I will do 1, 5, and 10 percent in PG, and use these bases the same as I would a citric acid base (a drop per ml max is what I have seen) if these fail to produce any noticable effects, I will cease the experiment.
I will be trying out
TFA Capucino TFA mexican coffee. TFA pistacio TFA pop corn Tfa Kiwi double TFA nectarine TFA jackfruit
All of these will be mixed at the lowest suggested percentages in the side bar thread, OR at a base line 5 percent for ones not there. MSG solution will be added at 1 drop per 10 ml, for the three concentrates, moving up to 1 drop per ML max.
Thanks for any input!
I'm interested in your results, but I suspect it will lead to nothing really. MSG is the compound responsible for the savoury sensation (the pleasurable sensation that happens when you eat meat, for example), and this happens at the tongue level.
There's a complete lack of studies on the subject, but I believe that the flavours we perceive from vaping are mostly just the aromatic components that reach your nose through the back of your mouth, with just a little interaction with your tongue. This might be part of the reason why savoury flavours are usually unpleasant, or why citric acid doesn't make your liquids bitter. Sweet flavours seem like an oddity, but I think it's more of about the association we make between the aroma and the actual taste than the actual perception of sweetness.
As I said, still interested in the results, though, so post a follow-up.
Only thing I would think would cause a problem is the sodium:
> "Monosodium glutamate (MSG) is the salt of sodium and glutamate, a natural occurring amino acid that is present in all proteins such as milk, meat, fish and many vegetables. In chemistry, mono- means one, thus monosodium refers to one molecule of sodium. MSG has been used for more than hundred years to enhance and balance the taste of many dishes. It adds umami taste, which is best described as savory, broth-like or meaty taste." Source
I know a lot of people 'supposedly' have food allergies to it but that whole site I linked calls that a myth. No problem with that, would still disclose it if i was selling juice that contained it, but generally speaking, we don't know the ramifications of inhaling vaporized salt, but we do know that it crushes coils pretty quickly.
Dr. Farsalinos has also participated in studies that demonstrate that inhaling sugar/glucose etc is not a good thing regardless of it destroying coils very rapidly.
Not sure really about the sugar content but:
> "Glutamate is produced by fermentation of starch, sugar, beets cane or molasses. The fermentation process is similar to that used in making vinegar, soy sauce or yogurt." Source
> "Table salt has roughly 3 times more sodium than MSG." Same source.
So you're vaping a 33% table salt dilution @ 1%, 5% and 10%? That's a bit more than in saline in your 5 and 10% but not terribly so considering you're doing 1 drop per 10ml and not 1-10% saline.
Very interested to hear your conclusions though and would love to get a medical opinion on this from Dr. F.
Finally some chemistry I can weigh in on!
IMO, you can't make a direct comparison with either table sugar or table salt to MSG, it's just a different compound. Sugar is glucose (C6H12O6), salt is sodium chloride (NaCl), and MSG is Monosodium Glutamate (C5H3NONa). To say that inhalation effects from MSG would be at all related to glucose because it's a fermentation product of starch is to say the same thing about alcohol for the very same reason, but chemically speaking that just doesn't jive.
Also, the "3 times more" figure I think is on a mass basis, because the MSG molecule is so much larger in terms of molecular mass than the NaCl (table salt) molecule -- 169.1 amu vs. 58.44 amu. The only real implication this has is, in solution, yes, you'll get less dissolved sodium for the same mass of MSG vs. NaCl, but you can't call it table salt because the other ion in the molecule is glutamate. It's still called a "salt" but only because it's an ionic bond between a cation and an anion, not because it tastes or has the same effects as salt in the body.
Both glutamate and sodium are things normally found abundantly in all systems of our bodies. Cells need sodium (and potassium in balance) to regulate ion channels to move fuel and waste products in/out of them. Glutamate is an essential amino acid (essential meaning one we can't produce and must get from food sources) that serves roles in both metabolism and brain function.
MSG's role in e-Juice will probably help enhance the tastes of some borderline-salty/sour fruits like passionfruit and maybe some custards, creamy, or egg-nog-type flavors, at least that's what I would use it in. I'm not sure coffee-type flavors are really the way to go unless you're trying to make something like a bulletproof coffee but hey if it works, it works.
I'm not sure if it will vaporize well, more likely than not it will gunk up coils. There are no real studies on inhalation safety however I'm fairly confident inhaling such a small amount (1 drop in 10 mL of 10% solution through a vape which is basically filtered via the wick) will not cause any issues, especially since when dissolved in PG/VG the molecule will be dissociated and the ions are ordinary molecules that can be utilized by literally every cell in your body.
Please note, this is all conjecture backed up by knowledge of chemistry. My only source used in writing this comment is years of education as a biochemical engineer and a biotech product development manager.
Sorry to veer off topic but I've been wanting to ask this question for a while.
How does saline in juice work? I would have thought that when the juice vaporises all the NaCl would be left behind?
A lot of people use it so I assume that it does something.
I haven't done the math or a lab study to confirm this so everything I say here is solely my hunch, keep that in mind. Take it with a grain of salt, if you will (heh.).
When I was an undergrad we took two classes that might directly relate to the phenomenon that I suspect is happening (though, it's been a few years since I've used a textbook, I might be rusty) -- Kinetics and Transport. In Kinetics we studied reactive systems in several different ways but one major part of the course was analyzing the difference between continuously-stirred tank reactions and plug flow reactions. CSTR's are reactions that happen in a tank that is constantly stirred, whereas a PFR is more of a visualization of a reaction, trying to picture fluid traveling through a pipe and the reaction happening at the leading edge. The overlying theory on top of all this is that if you recycle a PFR enough it becomes a CSTR in the math.
What does all this have to do with saline on a hot coil? Well, of course it's not a chemical reaction, but what I'm picturing is the same kind of "leading edge" thinking of a PFR, where at the meeting point between a hot coil and the fluid containing saline, the liquid is being vaporized leaving behind the heavy molecules, the salt that gunks up the coil. Move back a couple of micrometers from the leading edge and the heat is not as severe and the reaction occurring is not as intense. The liquid vaporizes less and so there is less salt coming out of solution. Keep stepping back, little by little, and eventually you get to a point where there is no reaction happening (pretty much the rest of the tank, or the rest of the fluid coating the wick for drippers) and the liquid just looks like liquid. That's one part of it.
The other part of it is related to transport. So we already know the fluid right up against the coil is being vaporized and the salt comes out of solution and stays on the coil. Take a step back from that and we are in the part where some fluid is vaporized and some stays liquid, some salt comes out of solution and some salt stays dissolved. That's what we're interested in.
Now -- this is heavily conjecture, I haven't been a physical chemist in a while as I've spent pretty much my entire career in bio and I reiterate I haven't done a lab study nor have I done the math to prove that this is what's happening but this is what I picture is going on and I think it makes sense based on what I already know.
So we get the vapor coming off the hot coil having to pass through the layer above it before it goes up to the user. The layer above it contains tiny particles of that salt that came out of solution as well as still-liquid solution. Layers, in this case, are not at all discrete layers you can tell apart, it's very much a gradient but it's more intuitive to think of them as layers where different things are happening. The force pulling the vapor is enough to carry some of those tiny particles along with it, so you get a little bit of a salty taste from those salt particles along with the rest of the vapor that actually came off the coil. Then you take your finger off the button, coil gets cool again, and some of the built-up salt on the coil itself dissolves back into solution bringing it back to somewhat of an equilibrium.
Cool, don't see anything bad enough to make me not do it. If my Concentrations are <= those of saline mixtures, then I am fine with it. The Nacl and MSG MSDS essentially have all the same advice.
My initial thoughts are that the concentrations are low enough that there will be no noticable difference. My hopes are for an improvemnt for nut flavors, and to emulate real dragn fruit better. Universally all artifical dragon fruit flavors hit half of the dragon fruit right, but they miss the subtle umame after taste.
I searched for the Dr.Farsilanos' insihts on sugars, but insulin inhalation for diabetics skews the searches quite a bit. So i pullsed up some MSDS sheets for you guys
MSDS for Sucrose http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/sucrose.htm
MSDS for dextrose/glucose http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/dextrose.htm
....why though? Will it make the flavors taste better or something?
Yes....well potentially. That is its purpose in food.
It's used to add the umami or savory flavor to food. When using it a tiny bit goes a really long way and it is extremely easy to over do it and trash the food you are preparing. Keep that in mind while testing.
Hell, I didn't even know you could buy MSG. Where do you buy it, EBay?
Most grocery stores sell it. This is one I see a lot. Personally, I use it in some of my dry rubs(really wakes up the flavors in a savory/spicy/sweet pulled pork or rib rub).
I never knew that Accent was really just MSG. I may try that on my grilled steaks and chops. I marinate chops in salt water before grilling, this might be a good substitute. If that works maybe sample a vape.